Devotee of my devotee

[Terese]

Pranam everyone There is a bit of an issue i would like to address. It looks to me like in Vaisnavism, the devotee is more worshipped, than Vasudeva Himself. I am not disputing this, Narayana has said this many times What i am saying is i seem to much more highly worship Narayana and His avataras, than through His devotees. Yes i love Ananta Shesham and his avataras, yes Sri Lakshmi is the mediator between the jiva and Bhagavan, but my eyes always come back to God, not of His devotee. Is this erroneous? I worship Balarama as both God and devotee, is this enough? I cannot help but worship Lord Hari directly.

Any suggestions would help me

 

[Spiderman]

looks fantastic to me

 

[SomeRandom]

If you are worshipping God, are you not worshipping his/her devotees by default?

 

[ajay0]

Pranam everyone There is a bit of an issue i would like to address. It looks to me like in Vaisnavism, the devotee is more worshipped, than Vasudeva Himself. I am not disputing this, Narayana has said this many times What i am saying is i seem to much more highly worship Narayana and His avataras, than through His devotees. Yes i love Ananta Shesham and his avataras, yes Sri Lakshmi is the mediator between the jiva and Bhagavan, but my eyes always come back to God, not of His devotee. Is this erroneous? I worship Balarama as both God and devotee, is this enough? I cannot help but worship Lord Hari directly.

Any suggestions would help me

The ideal devotee is probably worshipped so as to set an example to the rest of the devotees. This is the reason why Hanuman is worshipped and revered by Hindus because of his devotion to Rama even though he is not a god or deity, and his own temples exist.

It is also interesting to note that because of his unparalleled service to Rama, he has been promoted to the rank of Brahma the creator in the next universal cycle.

 

[निताइ dasa]

Jaya Nitaai!

Dear @Terese ji, I saw your question this morning, but am only free now to answer (sorry).

I don't think there is anything wrong with your mood. Generally, in Bhakti, Lord Hari and His avatars are the main objects of Bhakti. The devotees and Lord Hari are both worshipped, but in very different moods. Because, you see in Bhakti, the ultimate aim is krsnanushilam, or pleasing the sense of Krsna. The main purpose why we worship the devotees, is because it gives great pleasure to Krsna (whose devotees are more dear to Him then even His own life). But still, the worship of the devotees cannot even we done independent of Krsna. When we worship Laksmi Devi, we worship Her because She is the internal energy of Lord Narayana and very dear to Him. When we worship Hanuman, we always worship with the mood that he is the dear most servant of Ramachandra. In this mood, we can never leave Lord Hari out of the picture. Lord Baladeva is little unique, because He is a devotee, and God, so you can worship Him in both moods. Another esoteric secret, is that when you worship the Lord through His devotees: when you hear His pastimes through their lips, when you sing in Kirtan with them, when you worship together with them, then the nectar of Lord Hari's Bhakti increases. The evidence is given in Srimad Bhagavatam itself:

nigama-kalpa-taror galitaṁ phalaṁ
śuka-mukhād amṛta-drava-saṁyutam
pibata bhāgavataṁ rasam ālayaṁ
muhur aho rasikā bhuvi bhāvukāḥ

"O expert and thoughtful men, relish Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the mature fruit of the desire tree of Vedic literatures. It emanated from the lips of Śrī Śukadeva Gosvāmī. Therefore this fruit has become even more tasteful, although its nectarean juice was already relishable for all, including liberated souls"

The Bhagavatam is like a ripened fruit, and Sukadeva Goswami is like a bird (His name literally means parrot). When such birds bite into a ripened fruit, the taste of the fruit increases even more. In the same way, when Hari Katha is heard through the devotees, their own mood in injected into that katha, and that gives us more nectar. Lord Shiva is an incarnation of God Himself. But He is worshiped by those who want impersonal liberation of becoming one with Brahman. But when that same Lord Shiva is worshiped in relation with Krsna Bhakti, then He can give your the highest Love for Lord Hari. For example, Skanda Purana reads:


"SRI KRSNE VAISNAVANANTU PREMA BHAKTI VIVARDHATE
KRSNA BHAKTI RASA SARA VARSI RUDRA ANUKAMPAYA"



"Being a Vaishnava, if somebody fasts on Lord Siva's night (Siva Ratri day), by the mercy of him (Lord Siva) who is diving in the ocean of the mellow of
devotion to Krishna, one's devotion to Krishna increases rapidly."




In the initial stage, it is very very difficult to understand the glories of the devotees of the Lord, but as you progress in Bhakti, this understanding will come. There are three types of Vaishnavs generally, they are in order of advancement called Kanishta Adhikari, Madhayama Adhikari and Uttama Adhikari. The Kanishta Adhikari (beginner) has great faith in the Lord's deity, the Madhyama Adhikari (intermediate) has great faith in scripture and the pastimes of the Lord, and the Uttama Adhikari (high class Vaishnav) has great faith in the devotees of the Lord. So you see, this is a very very high stage. But you will realize this slowly. Espcially when you associate with Vaishnavs. Even if you can't physically, you can associate with them through their works. Read the scriptures of the pure Sri Vaishnavs in your line. Watch the lectures and kirtans of pure Sri Vaishnavs.


You will understand that it is His devotees who connects us with Krsna. They are our support in Bhakti. My Gurudeva used to say, when you are in trouble, don't yell for Krsna, yell for His devotees! Because His devotees know our pain. Krsna is God and is very fair (keeping everyone in check, punishing demons) so He can't always empathize with us, but the devotees know our pain.

but my eyes always come back to God, not of His devotee. Is this erroneous? I worship Balarama as both God and devotee, is this enough?

There is nothing wrong about this Tereseji. You have very deep attachment to Lord Hari, so the devotees will surely be pleased.

I'll share with you a few favourite bhajans about the glories of a Vaishnav:

ei-bāro karuṇā koro vaiṣṇava gosāi
patita-pāvana tomā bine keho nāi

Please this once be merciful upon me Oh Vaishnav Gosai (Gosai means one who has mastered the senses). There is no one like You who can deliver the fallen souls.

jāhāra nikaṭe gele pāpa dūre jāy
emona doyāla prabhu kebā kothā pāy

"By going close to You, one's sins run far way, where else can I find such a merciful Lord?"


gańgāra paraśa hoile paścate pāvan
darśane pavitra koro-ei tomāra guṇ

"By repeated bathing in the Ganga one is purified, but simply by seeing You, one is purified. That is Your qualities.


hari-sthāne aparādhe tāre hari-nām
tomā sthāne aparādhe nāhi paritrāṇ

"Offenses against Lord Hari are delivered by His Name. Offenses against You cannot be delivered against"

tomāra hṛdoye sadā govinda-viśrām
govinda kohena-mora vaiṣṇava parāṇ

"In You heart, Lord Govinda always rests. Govinda says "The Vaishnavs are my heart"


prati-janme kori āśā caraṇera dhūli
narottame koro doyā āpanāra boli'

"In every life I have a hope to be the dust of Your feet. Please be merciful on Narottama, and call him Your own"

 

[Terese]

Jaya Nitaai!

Dear @Terese ji, I saw your question this morning, but am only free now to answer (sorry).

I don't think there is anything wrong with your mood. Generally, in Bhakti, Lord Hari and His avatars are the main objects of Bhakti. The devotees and Lord Hari are both worshipped, but in very different moods. Because, you see in Bhakti, the ultimate aim is krsnanushilam, or pleasing the sense of Krsna. The main purpose why we worship the devotees, is because it gives great pleasure to Krsna (whose devotees are more dear to Him then even His own life). But still, the worship of the devotees cannot even we done independent of Krsna. When we worship Laksmi Devi, we worship Her because She is the internal energy of Lord Narayana and very dear to Him. When we worship Hanuman, we always worship with the mood that he is the dear most servant of Ramachandra. In this mood, we can never leave Lord Hari out of the picture. Lord Baladeva is little unique, because He is a devotee, and God, so you can worship Him in both moods. Another esoteric secret, is that when you worship the Lord through His devotees: when you hear His pastimes through their lips, when you sing in Kirtan with them, when you worship together with them, then the nectar of Lord Hari's Bhakti increases. The evidence is given in Srimad Bhagavatam itself:

nigama-kalpa-taror galitaṁ phalaṁ
śuka-mukhād amṛta-drava-saṁyutam
pibata bhāgavataṁ rasam ālayaṁ
muhur aho rasikā bhuvi bhāvukāḥ

"O expert and thoughtful men, relish Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the mature fruit of the desire tree of Vedic literatures. It emanated from the lips of Śrī Śukadeva Gosvāmī. Therefore this fruit has become even more tasteful, although its nectarean juice was already relishable for all, including liberated souls"

The Bhagavatam is like a ripened fruit, and Sukadeva Goswami is like a bird (His name literally means parrot). When such birds bite into a ripened fruit, the taste of the fruit increases even more. In the same way, when Hari Katha is heard through the devotees, their own mood in injected into that katha, and that gives us more nectar. Lord Shiva is an incarnation of God Himself. But He is worshiped by those who want impersonal liberation of becoming one with Brahman. But when that same Lord Shiva is worshiped in relation with Krsna Bhakti, then He can give your the highest Love for Lord Hari. For example, Skanda Purana reads:


"SRI KRSNE VAISNAVANANTU PREMA BHAKTI VIVARDHATE
KRSNA BHAKTI RASA SARA VARSI RUDRA ANUKAMPAYA"



"Being a Vaishnava, if somebody fasts on Lord Siva's night (Siva Ratri day), by the mercy of him (Lord Siva) who is diving in the ocean of the mellow of
devotion to Krishna, one's devotion to Krishna increases rapidly."




In the initial stage, it is very very difficult to understand the glories of the devotees of the Lord, but as you progress in Bhakti, this understanding will come. There are three types of Vaishnavs generally, they are in order of advancement called Kanishta Adhikari, Madhayama Adhikari and Uttama Adhikari. The Kanishta Adhikari (beginner) has great faith in the Lord's deity, the Madhyama Adhikari (intermediate) has great faith in scripture and the pastimes of the Lord, and the Uttama Adhikari (high class Vaishnav) has great faith in the devotees of the Lord. So you see, this is a very very high stage. But you will realize this slowly. Espcially when you associate with Vaishnavs. Even if you can't physically, you can associate with them through their works. Read the scriptures of the pure Sri Vaishnavs in your line. Watch the lectures and kirtans of pure Sri Vaishnavs.


You will understand that it is His devotees who connects us with Krsna. They are our support in Bhakti. My Gurudeva used to say, when you are in trouble, don't yell for Krsna, yell for His devotees! Because His devotees know our pain. Krsna is God and is very fair (keeping everyone in check, punishing demons) so He can't always empathize with us, but the devotees know our pain.





There is nothing wrong about this Tereseji. You have very deep attachment to Lord Hari, so the devotees will surely be pleased.

I'll share with you a few favourite bhajans about the glories of a Vaishnav:

ei-bāro karuṇā koro vaiṣṇava gosāi
patita-pāvana tomā bine keho nāi

Please this once be merciful upon me Oh Vaishnav Gosai (Gosai means one who has mastered the senses). There is no one like You who can deliver the fallen souls.

jāhāra nikaṭe gele pāpa dūre jāy
emona doyāla prabhu kebā kothā pāy

"By going close to You, one's sins run far way, where else can I find such a merciful Lord?"


gańgāra paraśa hoile paścate pāvan
darśane pavitra koro-ei tomāra guṇ

"By repeated bathing in the Ganga one is purified, but simply by seeing You, one is purified. That is Your qualities.


hari-sthāne aparādhe tāre hari-nām
tomā sthāne aparādhe nāhi paritrāṇ

"Offenses against Lord Hari are delivered by His Name. Offenses against You cannot be delivered against"

tomāra hṛdoye sadā govinda-viśrām
govinda kohena-mora vaiṣṇava parāṇ

"In You heart, Lord Govinda always rests. Govinda says "The Vaishnavs are my heart"


prati-janme kori āśā caraṇera dhūli
narottame koro doyā āpanāra boli'

"In every life I have a hope to be the dust of Your feet. Please be merciful on Narottama, and call him Your own"

Thanks Nitai-das, i will consider your post I was just wondering if thinking so much of Lord Hari and less so of His servants was a bad thing

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

A very warm Namaste, Terese-ammaji
I just can't create the space for/wrap my head around the thought that God would somehow be displeased that the one-pointed focus of your devotion is on Him alone! I consider myself a Vaishnava (even though I have a most holy and magnificent 5,000 lb Shiva lingam in my backyard). But me, I'd first give up the label "Vaishnav" if I had to before I gave up looking directly at and worshipping You Know Who.

 

[Terese]

A very warm Namaste, Terese-ammaji
I just can't create the space for/wrap my head around the thought that God would somehow be displeased that the one-pointed focus of your devotion is on Him alone! I consider myself a Vaishnava (even though I have a most holy and magnificent 5,000 lb Shiva lingam in my backyard). But me, I'd first give up the label "Vaishnav" if I had to before I gave up looking directly at and worshipping You Know Who.

Thank you for the very warm response Swami ji. Straight from the Lord's mouth, i'd say

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

Thank you for the very warm response Swami ji. Straight from the Lord's mouth, i'd say

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. but my eyes always come back to God, not of His devotee. Is this erroneous? .. Any suggestions would help me

If your thought come back to Hari, then there is nothing to worry. He will take care of all things. He will help you when required. You have direct access to Lord Hari, you do not need mediators. My advice will be to continue doing what you have been doing.

 

[ratikala]

Namaskaram Terese ji

There is a bit of an issue i would like to address. It looks to me like in Vaisnavism, the devotee is more worshipped, than Vasudeva Himself.

it is not so much that we worship the Devotee more than we worship the Supreme, but that due to our own knowledge of our own inability to understand the Supreme in his fullness we develop great appreciation and admiration for the Devotee, especialy one who works in the service of the Supreme, for where would we be without such magnanimous souls , ....those great souls who founded our temples and liniages , and the sucession of Gurus wo follow in this line , without them our teachings would have become obscure , ...and where would we be without the humble servants who daily tend the Deitys in our temples , without them the Deity would not remain in the archa vigra form , the lord only stays in the temple because of the love of his devotees, ....knowing this we feel great love for these people as they form a direct link to the Supreme , ....it is like getting an introduction , ...by meeting the Devotees you get introduction to the Guru , if the Guru is pleased with you he gives you direct introduction to the Supreme , ....

this is like our veiw of Srimati Radharani , if one pleases Sri Radhika then she will take you into the pressence of Krsna , from her you will also learn the most confidential of knowledge , what it is like to be close to Krsna , ....this too is the function of the Guru because of the Grace of his Guru ji before him he has been brought close to Krsna because of this mercy shown to him he now dedicates his life to bringing others closser to God , .....at first we canot have any appreciation of this not untill we have experience of it , then when we have experienced the mercy of the Guru or of a great devotee we feel imidiatly endebted

but my eyes always come back to God, not of His devotee.

of course , this is only natural , ..the Lord in all his forms is so sweet how can we not be attracted , but once we have become attracted we want to get closer thus we go to his freinds , his servants his confidants , ....we pray that they will take us directly to him , .....

Nitai Das ji explains this so nicely , .....

In the initial stage, it is very very difficult to understand the glories of the devotees of the Lord, but as you progress in Bhakti, this understanding will come. There are three types of Vaishnavs generally, they are in order of advancement called Kanishta Adhikari, Madhayama Adhikari and Uttama Adhikari. The Kanishta Adhikari (beginner) has great faith in the Lord's deity,

the Kanishta first develops faith and attraction to the lord , but as that inital love grows he wants closeness , as it is the devotees of the lord who grant us that closness we develop great love and devotion towards them equaly as if they were Krsna himself , ....

as Gaudiyas we beleive that the Lord himself comes in the form of Chaitanya Prabhu taking the guise of his own devotee , ...by doing this he shows his great mercy by founding a movement which has lifted many souls out of the darkness of ignorance by introducing them into the loving service of God , ...thus we worship our Gauanga and Nityananda before even approaching the supreme , this we do out of love and gratitude .

Pranamas

 

[तत्त्वप्रह्व]

Namaste again,

Yes i love Ananta Shesham and his avataras, yes Sri Lakshmi is the mediator between the jiva and Bhagavan, but my eyes always come back to God, not of His devotee. Is this erroneous? I worship Balarama as both God and devotee, is this enough? I cannot help but worship Lord Hari directly.

Terese ji, i would recommend that you seek a guru within your chosen saṁpradāya because your are at a stage where any progress would be possible only with the grace of a guru. Scriptures and opinions can guide only to a certain extent, the guru leads you with first-hand anubhava (~experience).

Generally, the ability and eligibility to conceptualise and worship viṣṇu rests solely with lakṣṃī - this is also the reason why before anything is offered to viṣṇu during the various types of pūjā it is first brought in contact with the conch, symbolically lakṣṃī - with the remaining jīvarāśis conveying their worship thru' her. Each personality of the vaiṣṇava theology has corresponding metaphysics attached to it. It is not somebody's crazy fancy as to why mokṣa is an actual place and is called vaikuṇṭha-dhāma. Unless one experiences the significance of each of these tattvas, it is tough to make any adhyātmika progress. Vaiṣṇava schools diverge from here on.
For the laity śrī rāmānuja recommends prapatti (surrendering with childlike abandonment as my guru interprets it, you can take whatever interpretation you like).

It is okay to not worship devotees as long as no vaiṣṇava apacāra is committed. But that even an unintentional association with true devotee/s can greatly accelerate one's adhyātmika progress can only be realised thru personal experience; the reason why satsaṅga is eulogised in the śāstras.

In the initial stage, it is very very difficult to understand the glories of the devotees of the Lord, but as you progress in Bhakti, this understanding will come. There are three types of Vaishnavs generally, they are in order of advancement called Kanishta Adhikari, Madhayama Adhikari and Uttama Adhikari. The Kanishta Adhikari (beginner) has great faith in the Lord's deity, the Madhyama Adhikari (intermediate) has great faith in scripture and the pastimes of the Lord, and the Uttama Adhikari (high class Vaishnav) has great faith in the devotees of the Lord. So you see, this is a very very high stage. But you will realize this slowly. Espcially when you associate with Vaishnavs. Even if you can't physically, you can associate with them through their works. Read the scriptures of the pure Sri Vaishnavs in your line. Watch the lectures and kirtans of pure Sri Vaishnavs.

Many praṇāms nitai ji - you've captured the essence so beautifully.


भक्तपराधीनपरात्परश्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।