Dharma and race

[Andal]

Namaskar,

As some of you know I spend most of my young life Buddhist before switching teams lol. One of things I had a big problem with in Buddhist circles was the unconscious segregation that is occurring in the US. This was related to Asian Buddhists keeping closed circles and having temples that oriented toward their languages as well as blatant racism against non Asians. On the US side there were lots of caucasians unwilling to acknowledge the 2 millennia of tradition and spirituality. They looked at Asians as being uneducated about Buddhism and tried to strip it of anything that wasn't pop psychology. This left a very bitter taste in my mouth.

When I came to Sanatana Dharma for the most part in temples here, while it's not always easy it is a welcoming environment.

Until a few days ago I posted what I thought was a seemingly harmless post on a Hindu forum asking for some help. Well- that unleashed a hell storm from a hand full of Indian Hindus who accused me of being everything from a snake to an FBI spy, to a Christian missionary. They knew nothing of me beyond my ethnicity.

This has raised some serious questions in my mind. While I have encountered ignorant comments before about how non Indians can't be Hindu, for the first time I am wondering about the future of Sanatana Dharma. What makes Christianity and Islam so strong is their celebration and welcoming of converts. Sure we are not in the conversion business and yet it seems like there needs to be more done to bridge the gap between native Hindus and converts. If we want to ensure the preservation of Dharma we have to be more dynamic than racist and castist ideologies that seem to swirl through some people's minds.

What are you experiences with the issue of race? Where do you see Sanatana Dharma a decade from now? How can we move out of the race/ caste/ language based discriminations?

Aum Hari Aum!

 

[ShivaFan]

I am sorry these things have happened to you, and yes as a "right wing" Hindu conservative yet I am the first to admit that yes racism is there among some Hindus, as it is so among humanity in general. Why should I lie and say it is not there? It is, but a minority. Yet it is a difficult thing to sort through, it is our nature and not Hinduism, it is our stupidity and not Hinduism. I am a tough guy, I can take this type of stuff and laugh, but I also understand it might be hard for others. One thing to keep in mind is, no matter where you go, what religion, it will be there. As you said, you saw it even among Buddhists which in one way is remarkable considering the teaching of Buddha. Honestly, the one religion where I have seen the least bigotry is in Jainism, and I say that as a Hindu, but even there among lay Jains I have seen it. But Shiva is not a bigot. I can assure you of that.

 

[Andal]

Thank you and this is so very true ShivaFan. The question is then how can we overcome these limiting views. It isn't completely on the Indian side either, I have heard westerners denigrate different Hindu traditions as being inferior which is just as bad. I wonder can we do things to bridge the gap? I'm thinking particularly in the west where NRIs have communities and interact in a non Indian majority and on the flip side how can non Indians bridge the gap as well.

I think inside of India is a different story because there are some striking sociological trends such as rice bowl conversions and "spiritual" tourism which bring their own difficulties.

Aum Hari Aum!

 

[Jainarayan]

Andal, I know what you are talking about. I sympathize with you because I've experienced it on the 'net. I was called everything from a western half Hindu, a poser, a mleccha, and told I should return to what I know. It did bother me (it's not "it's only the internet") because it makes you wonder. But then I remember all the Indian Hindus I run into and have met who beam smiles when they find out I am Hindu. They often start chatting me up, fascinated that a non-Indian is Hindu. The young female manager of a store I go to said "I don't see you at temple"; I said "well, I don't see you either!" and we laugh.

One elderly couple may have recognized me from temple as we were out for our evening walks. As we approached each other, the gentleman raised his hand in greeting, his wife smiled, and I smiled back. On the other hand, it may just be that they are friendly and polite people, as I've found Indians to be. And while I may feel slightly uncomfortable feeling like something of a curiosity at temple, it's not out of any malice on the other person's part. On the other hand, some are completely unphased by it, at least on the outside. I can't remember having ever met a rude Indian in person.

I think that's the way it is in real life and will continue to be. I think the welcoming will grow. In my view, those few on the internet don't represent the > 1.1 billion Indians/Hindus in India and the worldwide Indian diaspora.

 

[Vinayaka]

Andal, I agree with Shivafan ... it's there but it's rare. I have been to a lot of NRI temples in North America, and only experienced it in its hating form once. That was some time back.

Yes, there are also ethnocentric views within that community, but it's rare too.

There is a 'revenge on the British' element in India today and yes, a few people have succumbed to it, and use race as the determiner.

 

[Maya3]

First, so sorry that you experienced this.
I can just guess what forum you were on, no need to mention its name, but I had a similar experience.

Other than that, I think you raise an important question. How should we bridge this gap without proselytizing?
I think it will happen naturally, more and more of us are finding Hinduism.
There are a lot of ashrams outside of India that are very diverse and open.
I go to both an ashram and a traditional South Indian Ganesha Temple and it is very diverse. Last time I was there I took note that we were about half Indian. Half western (Mostly white, two Europeans that I know of, me and another lady, an African American, an older white man who visited for his second time ever and he loved it.)

It's coming, just wait and see.

Maya

 

[Vinayaka]

In real life, most people get turned by your actions. I was told by my guide in Madurai that they wouldn't let me in. I started chanting, and he had second doubts. Then when I was let in, he seemed a bit ticked. No individuals said anything, sure there were stares, but that's just normal, no different than if I was 7 feet tall.

It's also out there as a trick by non-Hindu Indians ... anything at all to keep people away from Hinduism.

I still get the occasional stare here, but all the old friends would jump in in my defense. It's happened here on this forum too, and it was dealt with by our moderator team, so no place is immune.

The 'other forum' most people refer to no longer has such problems to the extent it did in the past, as the really nasty offenders have been banned.

 

[Andal]

Vannakkam Everyone,

Thank you for your words of encouragement and kindly sharing your stories. While I was very upset at first and a bit surprised now I'm thinking this is an unfortunate knee jerk reaction to the actions of non Hindus in India as well as old caste mentalities.

Funny thing is when I was in India I encountered it and just shook it off. When I was at Lord Hanuman's temple in Varanasi I was told I wasn't allowed to put on tilak, it was only for Indians. I was also told by quite a few Indian Hindus that I would not be allowed in Kashivishvanatha Temple. Amazing how a basket of offerings can change minds

So now my question to you guys is this- Is such mentalities a small minority that will die out or is this something that is worth paying attention to? Christianity and Islam are so big because they take everyone. While I don't like missionizing or a conversion mentality, there is something to be learned about acceptance.

Aum Hari Aum!

 

[Vinayaka]

I personally don't view it as a huge problem ... because it's changing. It will take some time, yes.

We also have to remember that the other end of the scale (radical universalism) is equally problematic, but for different reasons. But essentially we get non-Hindus (I personally view the practice of excluding sincere devotees as non-Hindu) advising us about Hinduism. Now that just seems odd.

Most of us just want to pray to God in whatever form we have concluded is best for us, and would rather just be positive about the whole darn thing.

 

[Andal]

I completely agree Vinayaka. I think universalism is just as dangerous. It dilutes the tradition. Sri Dharma Pravartaka Acharya has contributed a crucial work on the dangers of radical universalism.

Yoga, kundalini, and mantra stripped of its meaning and emotion and fed to the masses for the right price.... A very sad situation indeed.

Aum Hari Aum!

 

[Vinayaka]

I completely agree Vinayaka. I think universalism is just as dangerous. It dilutes the tradition. Sri Dharma Pravartaka Acharya has contributed a crucial work on the dangers of radical universalism.

I kept looking for him to show up when we pilgrimaged to Omaha a few years back, just so I could thank him personally. But alas, he never appeared.

 

[Sb1995]

It's Indian people, not the religion, just the culture. Being Indian myself and having Indian parents I will firmly admit that we are the worst when it comes to this stuff, alongside the Chinese. It's like a Indian Hindu who is barely religious will think of himself greater than a White Hindu who memorizes every prayer. It's pathetic and sad and I don't think it will change for the older generations but it is for the younger generations.

 

[Vinayaka]

It's Indian people, not the religion, just the culture. Being Indian myself and having Indian parents I will firmly admit that we are the worst when it comes to this stuff, alongside the Chinese. It's like a Indian Hindu who is barely religious will think of himself greater than a White Hindu who memorizes every prayer. It's pathetic and sad and I don't think it will change for the older generations but it is for the younger generations.

I get the same sense, SB. I've only encountered it in older folks and very recent immigrants who are yet unfamiliar with the ways of western Hindus.

Thanks for confirming it.

So do you ever intervene when the topic comes up, or do you figure its not worth it?

 

[Kalidas]

Sorry to hear about that. Just remember the Gods love you, despite the color of your skin. Remember this: The Gods have no race.

I have not been to the temple near my house yet so I have no idea what will happen, but I have talked to some of the people that go there in the grocery store I work at. I even saw a family buying offerings for puja and had a neat little talk with them. They invited me to the temple, and were generally very nice. I remember asking them what all the fruit was for and the grandmother said "For worship!"

Her daughter kind of chastised her in Hindi(I'm guessing because she didn't want her to say that) and turned to me and "It's for church." So I looked at her and "Aw for puja?" and they just stopped and looked at me. "How do you know what that is?" "I'm Hindu". The older lady laughed and the father invited m,e to the temple. the surprise was pretty awesome.

Honestly the only "racism" I have seen is from non Indian people so far. a whole lot of "What your lying." "you can't be Hindu!" "Must be some kind of a fad you young kids are getting into" etc etc etc.

 

[Vinayaka]

Sorry to hear about that. Just remember the Gods love you, despite the color of your skin. Remember this: The Gods have no race.

I have not been to the temple near my house yet so I have no idea what will happen, but I have talked to some of the people that go there in the grocery store I work at. I even saw a family buying offerings for puja and had a neat little talk with them. They invited me to the temple, and were generally very nice. I remember asking them what all the fruit was for and the grandmother said "For worship!"

Her daughter kind of chastised her in Hindi(I'm guessing because she didn't want her to say that) and turned to me and "It's for church." So I looked at her and "Aw for puja?" and they just stopped and looked at me. "How do you know what that is?" "I'm Hindu". The older lady laughed and the father invited m,e to the temple. the surprise was pretty awesome.

Honestly the only "racism" I have seen is from non Indian people so far. a whole lot of "What your lying." "you can't be Hindu!" "Must be some kind of a fad you young kids are getting into" etc etc etc.

Which temple is this? Does it have a website?

Funny about the white people too. I've gotten that, mostly when the ask the ethnicity of my name. But then the Indians often have trouble with that too.

You know you're doing something right when you get 'What?" with that confused look. But often it turns into something really funny. Once when I was landscaping at temple, some folks thought I was a 'hired' guy from the west, so started asking me about how much I'd charge for their backyard. When I told them I was a devotee volunteering, the apologies were ridiculously overdone. But that made more sense; I wasn't in veshti.

 

[Kalidas]

Which temple is this? Does it have a website?

Funny about the white people too. I've gotten that, mostly when the ask the ethnicity of my name. But then the Indians often have trouble with that too.

You know you're doing something right when you get 'What?" with that confused look. But often it turns into something really funny. Once when I was landscaping at temple, some folks thought I was a 'hired' guy from the west, so started asking me about how much I'd charge for their backyard. When I told them I was a devotee volunteering, the apologies were ridiculously overdone. But that made more sense; I wasn't in veshti.

they used to have a website and I can't find it anymore

I found this though Pictures - Shri Lakshmi Narayan Mandir Hindu Temple in Riverside California - Long Beach christian history | Examiner.com

 

[atanu]

Namaskar,

As some of you know I spend most of my young life Buddhist before switching teams lol. One of things I had a big problem with in Buddhist circles was the unconscious segregation that is occurring in the US. This was related to Asian Buddhists keeping closed circles and having temples that oriented toward their languages as well as blatant racism against non Asians. On the US side there were lots of caucasians unwilling to acknowledge the 2 millennia of tradition and spirituality. They looked at Asians as being uneducated about Buddhism and tried to strip it of anything that wasn't pop psychology. This left a very bitter taste in my mouth.

When I came to Sanatana Dharma for the most part in temples here, while it's not always easy it is a welcoming environment.

Until a few days ago I posted what I thought was a seemingly harmless post on a Hindu forum asking for some help. Well- that unleashed a hell storm from a hand full of Indian Hindus who accused me of being everything from a snake to an FBI spy, to a Christian missionary. They knew nothing of me beyond my ethnicity.

This has raised some serious questions in my mind. While I have encountered ignorant comments before about how non Indians can't be Hindu, for the first time I am wondering about the future of Sanatana Dharma. What makes Christianity and Islam so strong is their celebration and welcoming of converts. Sure we are not in the conversion business and yet it seems like there needs to be more done to bridge the gap between native Hindus and converts. If we want to ensure the preservation of Dharma we have to be more dynamic than racist and castist ideologies that seem to swirl through some people's minds.

What are you experiences with the issue of race? Where do you see Sanatana Dharma a decade from now? How can we move out of the race/ caste/ language based discriminations?

Aum Hari Aum!

Hello Anadal

Anonymity on the internet, I think, encourages some to pour out their bravado. I think it is better to avoid such people as these may not be spiritual people.

 

[StarryNightshade]

Granted my experience with Hinduism is rather limited. I've only been practicing for roughly a year (with a few months of doubt and non-practice) and have only been to two temples.

Over the dozens of times I've been to temple, only one person (an older man) seemed to be bothered that a non-Indian was at the temple. I gave him a Namaste, and he just kind of scowled and turned away. However, the priest, the majority of the other devotees, and Hindus who come into the store where I work all seem very joyous and interested that someone from the west has taken an interest and practice of their faith. Even the Jains who come to the temple for the Hanuman Chalisa seem really happy that a non-Indian has a knowledge of Hinduism.

Acttually, like Kalidas, most of the people who don't like that fact that I'm Hindu tend to be other white people. :sarcastic

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram

going back to the original question , .... I could take it two ways ... yes I have at odd times experienced some sort of descrimination but if I look at it carefuly I also saw the people guilty of implying that I this , that or the other because I am white , ...were also the ones that made simmilar comments about other Indians , either about anothers caste or sect or that southerners are ... , gujaratis are ... , Kenyan born indians are .... , ....

in fact these are people that have a problem with everyone except them selves and their own kind ...actualy to be honest very often they also have a problem even with their own family and their own kind , they are just people who still have a lot to learn , and in some ways we would be foolish to take it on .

But we can use this to our benifit , use it as a part of our path , our training , trying to see the divine within all beings even when they treat us un fairly , .....we can teach our selves not to react , not to take it personaly , to see it as just their personal nature in just the same way that we see that there are Indians of good kind and un biased nature , and be thankfull for these people and forgive the others as we would forgive children ....

.... if we realise that we are non different , that we are the same jiva , then why should we react , to react or to dwell on the issue simply fuels the divide ....

 

[Sb1995]

I get the same sense, SB. I've only encountered it in older folks and very recent immigrants who are yet unfamiliar with the ways of western Hindus.

Thanks for confirming it.

So do you ever intervene when the topic comes up, or do you figure its not worth it?

Of course, it disgusts me. I even see it happen with my parents as they are quick to judge themselves. Unfortunately there's not much you can do as they grew up in this environment and it's how they were raised.