Dharma or Moksha?

[Poeticus]

PS: Without moksha being the goal, why would an aspirant ever want to read the BG and learn what god says about 'dharma'?

Because, as per the statements of Lord Shri Krishna, no one is entitled to their fruits or moksha.

The goal is secondary. Lord Shri Krishna says that dharma (in this case: bhakti, sacrifices, yagyas) is primary. One must not perform said duties with moksha in mind. In fact, the mere notion of moksha should be absent from the mind.

Thus, scripture differs from the thought of moksha or salvation being paramount.

 

[Poeticus]

but even this man's ultimate goal will become moksha at some point

The mere notion of having a goal in mind correlates with wanting fruits of actions - this in itself is equivalent to working for something in return. As per the statements of Lord Shri Krishna, this is adharmic. One conducts satya-dharma without concentration on moksha (salvation) in the essence of action relating to his prescribed duties.

Act, you must. But, to contemplate for a benefit in order to gain moksha will be the downfall as the words of Lord Shri Krishna clearly state that goals are secondary while duty without seeking benefits is primary.

To state that a "man's ultimate goal will become moksha at some point" is speculating and disregarding pramANa-s of the Lord.

 

[Viraja]

Because, as per the statements of Lord Shri Krishna, no one is entitled to their fruits or moksha.

The goal is secondary. Lord Shri Krishna says that dharma (in this case: bhakti, sacrifices, yagyas) is primary. One must not perform said duties with moksha in mind. In fact, the mere notion of moksha should be absent from the mind.

Thus, scripture differs from the thought of moksha or salvation being paramount.

That's a good explanation, thanks.

PS: However, I would exempt advanced devotees who want moksha in order to be able to serve the lord forever in his abode from this category.

 

[Vinayaka]

And yet ... I have also herd that the very last desire to drop is just that ... the desire for moksha. When it becomes your final remaining desire ... after wealth is done with, fame is done with, comfort is done with etc. you're left with one desire ... for nirvikalpa samadhi ... then you even have to do away with that one.

 

[Poeticus]

...then you even have to do away with that one.

In other words:

To be desire-less, is to be truly (-devotionally) advanced.

- - - - -

 

[Vinayaka]

In other words:

To be desire-less, is to be truly (-devotionally) advanced.

- - - - -

Yup ... but we're all getting there, albeit slowly and barely even noticeable. Try to learn something new every day.

 

[Braja Bhushan das]

Traditionally, there are four goals of human life: dharma (selfless performance of one’s duty and religious practice), artha (ethical acquisition of wealth), kama (regulated sense enjoyment) and moksa (liberation from the cycle of births and deaths). The first three, by addressing and guiding human natural needs, gradually lead to the fourth, which is generally considered the principal or highest objective of one’s life.

However, as it has already been mentioned in this thread, even desire for moksa contains a selfish element. Therefore, in Gaudiya Vaishnavism, Lord Caitanya stipulated prema (love of God) as the fifth, and supreme, goal of human life. By attaining prema, moksa is automatically attained. In prema one only wants to please the object of his love, and derives bliss from that, thus there is no selfishness. Indeed, one cannot be happy without a loving relationship, we just need to direct that love to Krishna, Who is the worthiest recipient of love and Who will never fail us.

This highest goal can be achieved through sincere service of one’s Guru and offenceless chanting of the Holy Names of Krishna.

 

[Kalidas]

So I had had this thought a while back. I was going to make my own thread but I think it fits in here very nicely.

So I was thinking about Moksha and how it is even possible. The idea of it is really quit mind boggling. Then I got thinking, what if it isn't about ME but about others? What if the path to liberation isn't really all this meditation, and rituals,and worship, and studying(though I do think those things help a lot) the path to moksha is in helping others reach their goal? What if to get to that ultimate goal we must help others themselves get to moksha? Kind of like a teacher learns more when they teach, or how giving a gift is a gift to yourself. One of the signs of being an enlightened person is being removed from the fruits of ones actions. We must act there is no choice, but we can choose not to worry about the end results. What a better way to do this then to act for others. When we do something for others yes we are doing something but the end result REALLY isn't our problem to be honest. What other people choose to do with our kind deeds is up to them.

Not sure if this new or totally insane but yeah just a thought that crossed my brain.

 

[Vinayaka]

What a better way to do this then to act for others.

One way to understand karma is that acting for others is really acting for yourself. Not that you should think that way, looking for reward, but it just is that way, because of the law of karma.

 

[Silver Wolf]

Doesn't Dharma lead to Moksha?

 

[Poeticus]

Doesn't Dharma lead to Moksha?

Namaste, Silver Wolf:

Yes, it can. The point of this thread was to show that Dharma is more important because looking for salvation (which would be a goal, a destination, a fruit/reward) is A-Dharmic. A Hindu (especially of the Vaishnava sect) must conduct righteous Dharma without concentrating on the fruits of his/her actions and without wanting to be rewarded for those actions regardless of either being closer with the Shri Gods or not, thus, in other words: to be desire-less is to be truly, devotionally advanced - as per Smriti PramāNa as stated in Shri GItA by Lord Shri Krishna.

M.V.

 

[Silver Wolf]

Namaste, Silver Wolf:

Yes, it can. The point of this thread was to show that Dharma is more important because looking for salvation (which would be a goal, a destination, a fruit/reward) is A-Dharmic. A Hindu (especially of the Vaishnava sect) must conduct righteous Dharma without concentrating on the fruits of his/her actions and without wanting to be rewarded for those actions regardless of either being closer with the Shri Gods or not, thus, in other words: to be desire-less is to be truly, devotionally advanced - as per Smriti PramāNa as stated in Shri GItA by Lord Shri Krishna.

M.V.

That is what I try to do, follow Dharma without wanting the fruit.
I admire the Bhagavad Gita, while I have no idea whether or not Krishna was an incarnation of Vishnu, he was at least enlightened, or an incarnation of an enlightened being.

 

[KrsnaDasa]

Namaste, Silver Wolf:

Yes, it can. The point of this thread was to show that Dharma is more important because looking for salvation (which would be a goal, a destination, a fruit/reward) is A-Dharmic. A Hindu (especially of the Vaishnava sect) must conduct righteous Dharma without concentrating on the fruits of his/her actions and without wanting to be rewarded for those actions regardless of either being closer with the Shri Gods or not, thus, in other words: to be desire-less is to be truly, devotionally advanced - as per Smriti PramāNa as stated in Shri GItA by Lord Shri Krishna.

M.V.

:clap: indeed!

Only one thing though, desirelessness in Gaudiya Vaisnavism (at least to my knowledge), means lack of material desire. The only desire is to please and serve God. It isn't about giving up desire completely, but about chaining the aim of desires from material to spiritual. But everything I just stated is hardly relevant, just being the staunch Gaudiya you asked me to be

But yeah, good post!

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram krsna dasa ji :namaste

:clap: indeed!

Only one thing though, desirelessness in Gaudiya Vaisnavism (at least to my knowledge), means lack of material desire. The only desire is to please and serve God. It isn't about giving up desire completely, but about chaining the aim of desires from material to spiritual. But everything I just stated is hardly relevant, just being the staunch Gaudiya you asked me to be

But yeah, good post!

jai jai , spoken as a true vaisnava , ''the only desire is to please and serve god ''

I will happily second that ,

It isn't about giving up desire completely, but about chaining the aim of desires from material to spiritual.

it is this transforming of material desires into the desire to serve that I find runns concurrent between buddhist bodhichita and the vaisnava's desier to serve .
in either case moksha is not realy an important motivation .

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

=मैत्रावरुणिः;3480708]Namaste,

Namaste,

Which one is more important: Dharma or Moksha? I think Dharmah is more important then Moksha, because i think once Moksha is attained we still have to abide by Dharmah.

Are the two separable? I don't think so, I think Dharmah is the actions or the process to the Goal which is Moksha, they are inseparable in that regard.

Does one lead to the other? I think Dharmah Leads to Moksha, but Moksha does not override Dharmah, I think Dharmah is Sanatana, but Moksha is not Sanatana.

How are these important and explained in your Hindu sect and/or sub-sect? I Dont Have one.

 

[Kalidas]

namaskaram krsna dasa ji :namaste



jai jai , spoken as a true vaisnava , ''the only desire is to please and serve god ''

I will happily second that ,
it is this transforming of material desires into the desire to serve that I find runns concurrent between buddhist bodhichita and the vaisnava's desier to serve .
in either case moksha is not realy an important motivation .

I am beginning to think I am an odd Shakta/vaishnava mix. I primarily worship Kali maa as many of you know. But in a Vaishnava kind way. When I have to do something I try to think about doing it as if I am trying to make my mother proud. I try my best to live a life of no harm. So I guess religiously I am a Kali Bhakti but spiritually and morally a Vaishnava?... I'm weird lol

 

[Kalicharan Tuvij]

I am beginning to think I am an odd Shakta/vaishnava mix. I primarily worship Kali maa as many of you know. But in a Vaishnava kind way. When I have to do something I try to think about doing it as if I am trying to make my mother proud. I try my best to live a life of no harm. So I guess religiously I am a Kali Bhakti but spiritually and morally a Vaishnava?... I'm weird lol

Shaktas are the least sectarian of all

 

[Kalidas]

Shaktas are the least sectarian of all

well thats a relief lol