Did god create evil?

[Super Universe]

oh and yes God did make evil.

You can believe as you wish. But it is on you and no one else.

 

[Super Universe]

Actually God didn't create anything, but that’s just my belief.
And yes the concept of God is logically inconsistent, as I have pointed out. Review my posts for my arguments; I get tired of repeating myself.

But if God know everything then he knew that Lucifer would choose evil, and since he is responsible for the creation of Lucifer he is also responsible for the creation of evil.

Uh, you can't blame something you don't believe in.
I hold everyone responsible for their own actions, including myself. Yes I have made some poor choices, but the lessons I’ve learned as a result of those choices have enriched my life that much more.

Most people do, yes. But like I said, I’m willing to admit when I am wrong and pay the piper when I have too.

Like what?

Like Mother Theresa allowing millions of Indians to suffer and die while she redirected donations which were intended to build medical facilities in Calcutta to other church projects?

Like the countless numbers of Christians, Muslims, and Jews that dies during the Crusades?

Does the Spanish Inquisition ring any bells?

How about the Westboro Baptist church, are they doing good things?

I am not only concerned with myself, I’m concerned with the whole human race, and from what I can see organized religion has done more harm than good.

No I don't only see bad things. The world is full of beauty, but I will not shut my eyes to and pretend that everything is all right.

Popular culture idolizes sex and money.
We are wastefully flaunting our precious natural resources.
My government regularly disregards the separation of church and state, forcing religious practices and ideas upon an unwilling populous.
Trillions of dollars each year are spent on national debt which could be used to actually do some good for humanity, like feeding and clothing the impoverished.

Is the only thing you do see are flowers and birds?

My life is very content and fulfilling, thanks. And I choose to live this way because I choose to educate myself about everything I can. I choose to live with the facts of reality and constantly keep those things that bother me about the world in my thoughts so that I do not fall into them myself. I choose to live this way because it is the intelligent, responsible, way to live.

If you wish to believe that there is no God, then that is your choice.

Does a parent allow their child to do harm? In your logic we should not have children because they will inevitably hurt someone.

This universe is free will. If you do not like free will then do not return here. It's your choice. Go off to another universe and live a controlled life. Be a robot since that is your desire.

You see evil in Mother Teresa? Again you choose to only see the bad in anything. You think there should not be a universe because somewhere something will do a bad thing. That is your choice.

God knows everything because He is connected to every living thing. He experiences everything just as you do. But what are you to the universe? Do you think even a million Hitler's could change the course He has set?

You want to know why can't God create a universe without evil? He can. That is exactly what's happening. You just don't like the process.

To greatly simplify things: physical laws assemble personality traits based on a mathematical formula. This creates a unique new personality that joins with a spirit possessed lifeform to see what kind of being will evolve. On the earth, when the personality joins with a human it has virtually no knowledge of it's union with the spirit (soul). After death, the good ones are saved and the others dissolved.

Oh, but maybe this isn't the way you would do it? You would just snap your fingers and everything would already be perfect. But how would you know what was really perfect if you didn't have at least one go around before you created your perfect universe?

 

[Rejected]

If you wish to believe that there is no God, then that is your choice.

I'm glad we agree on something.

Does a parent allow their child to do harm? In your logic we should not have children because they will inevitably hurt someone.

Care to explain how you determined that?

This universe is free will. If you do not like free will then do not return here. It's your choice. Go off to another universe and live a controlled life.

We could start a whole new argument on free will here, but I’m undecided until I can review all the arguments.

And it's my universe, you leave.

Be a robot since that is your desire.

Yes. I am a robot. I believe and do whatever I am told. :sarcastic

You see evil in Mother Teresa? Again you choose to only see the bad in anything. You think there should not be a universe because somewhere something will do a bad thing. That is your choice.

Do your homework; Mother Theresa was a self righteous, two faced, lunatic who delighted in the suffering of the poor.

And I’m not saying that a universe where bad things happen shouldn't exist, I’m saying that it does, but that religion has contributed to those bad things.
The universe will exist whether I want it too or not, but I’m going to try not to add to the despair while I’m here.

God knows everything because He is connected to every living thing. He experiences everything just as you do. But what are you to the universe? Do you think even a million Hitler's could change the course He has set?

I am an insignificant speck in the universe, so are you.

You want to know why can't God create a universe without evil? He can. That is exactly what's happening. You just don't like the process.

I will agree with you on the goal, but I think we see two different processes.

To greatly simplify things: physical laws assemble personality traits based on a mathematical formula. This creates a unique new personality that joins with a spirit possessed lifeform to see what kind of being will evolve. On the earth, when the personality joins with a human it has virtually no knowledge of it's union with the spirit (soul). After death, the good ones are saved and the others dissolved.

Is this your personal belief or do you have evidence that this is what happens?

 

[Super Universe]

I'm glad we agree on something.

Care to explain how you determined that?

We could start a whole new argument on free will here, but I’m undecided until I can review all the arguments.

And it's my universe, you leave.

Yes. I am a robot. I believe and do whatever I am told. :sarcastic

Do your homework; Mother Theresa was a self righteous, two faced, lunatic who delighted in the suffering of the poor.

And I’m not saying that a universe where bad things happen shouldn't exist, I’m saying that it does, but that religion has contributed to those bad things.
The universe will exist whether I want it too or not, but I’m going to try not to add to the despair while I’m here.

I am an insignificant speck in the universe, so are you.

I will agree with you on the goal, but I think we see two different processes.

Is this your personal belief or do you have evidence that this is what happens?

If it's your universe then take responsibility for all the bad things that you have been crying about. What have you ever done to prevent them? What are you doing now to see that they don't continue?

In any endeavor as long and complicated as organized religion humans have had failures along with the successes. Religion is no different.

Evidence? Do you not believe that each individual has a unique personality? Do you not not believe that living forms have something, that I call spirit (soul for human beings) that other matter does not?

The proof is in the pudding, it's all around you in a grand design but you are too focused on a faulty human created religion.

 

[sojourner]

Yes, I believe God created evil.

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:17

He created it and warned man to leave it alone. However; woman who is the weaker sex did eat of the tree, and so man and woman were doomed to live in good and evil forever.

Subsequently, through the words of Jesus we hear...

"Be ye strong therefore, and let not your hands be weak: for your work shall be rewarded." 2 Chronicles 15:7

His message (IMHO) is to be strong and resist the inherent weakness in all men to do things which are evil.

The "tree" was of the knowledge of good and evil. Notice that humanity did not know evil until they had disobeyed God. When they disobeyed, then they had knowledge of what evil was. Evil is a construct of humanity, not part of God's good creation.

They both ate of the fruit. In what way does this story imply that women are "weaker" than men? Had Adam been stronger, could he have resisted the temptation that Eve could not? I don't think one can divide and qualify the sexes based upon this account.

 

[Rejected]

If it's your universe then take responsibility for all the bad things that you have been crying about.

Is sarcasm lost upon you?
If only I could change things, but you wouldn't want me to be God, I promise you wouldn't like it.

What have you ever done to prevent them? What are you doing now to see that they don't continue?

I'm not contributing to the problems, or at least as little as I possibly can. I show respect for other human beings without bias towards their beliefs, race or anything else, and I’m helping to raise a child who will hopefully show that same respect to the people he will encounter in his lifetime. I try to help those in need directly when ever I can. I give blood on a regular basis. I've volunteered at the Special Olympics and the Big Brothers and Big Sisters of America. I consistently give to charities like:

Vietnam Veterans Assistance Fund
Depression and Bipolar Support Alliance
USO, Inc.
National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence

I allow others the right to their opinion without thinking that I have to correct them.
And I don't litter.

In any endeavor as long and complicated as organized religion humans have had failures along with the successes. Religion is no different.

Evidence? Do you not believe that each individual has a unique personality? Do you not not believe that living forms have something, that I call spirit (soul for human beings) that other matter does not?

The proof is in the pudding, it's all around you in a grand design but you are too focused on a faulty human created religion.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

No, I see the Design, or what I believe to be the design. I just don’t see your god as a part of it.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

I disagree. That's dualistic thinking. One cannot have light without darkness? Darkness is the absence of light. Darkness cannot exist where there is light.

Likewise, in this dualistic reality, evil could not exist where there is only goodness.

The way I see it...nothing in the natural world is "evil". An owl that kills a mouse isn't evil, it's surviving. A virus that kills a person isn't evil, it's surviving. A fire that destroys a forest isn't evil, it's allowing the forest to replenish itself.

This is good also, it is only because we ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that we feel like we need to judge what is or isn't on or the other. Ignorance is bliss as they say.


Ok I have to go read some more of the thread before I comment any more. Be right back.

 

[Katzpur]

Even if God did not directly create evil, but allowed it to happen as a result of free will, then God is still responsible for the existance of evil, for he allows he creations to perform evil acts.

Either God acknowledges evil and does nothing to stop it, regardless of the reason, which makes him malevolent and sadistic
OR
God is aware of evil and cannot stop it, which makes God impotent.

OR God has a purpose in allowing evil to co-exist along side good...

OR what you see as "evil" is not necessarily "evil" to God, but the way you have chosen to see the world.

See, the fact that you don't get it doesn't change anything with respect to God.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

I hold everyone responsible for their own actions, including myself. Yes I have made some poor choices, but the lessons I’ve learned as a result of those choices have enriched my life that much more.

Right, there, you said it. The lessons you've learned have enriched your life. Now if there was no "evil" as you call it, and no lessons to learn, there would be no enrichment, there would be no reason for growth or experience. I think we would do better to rename 'evil' and call it 'adversary' or adverse situations. Both of which make us stronger and wiser.

 

[Rejected]

Right, there, you said it. The lessons you've learned have enriched your life. Now if there was no "evil" as you call it, and no lessons to learn, there would be no enrichment, there would be no reason for growth or experience. I think we would do better to rename 'evil' and call it 'adversary' or adverse situations. Both of which make us stronger and wiser.

I agree. I simply see no need to attribute any of the above good or evil to God.

 

[Rejected]

OR God has a purpose in allowing evil to co-exist along side good...

OR what you see as "evil" is not necessarily "evil" to God, but the way you have chosen to see the world.

See, the fact that you don't get it doesn't change anything with respect to God.

But I do "get it"
I used to use the same arguments. The sad thing is that they are irrefutable because they are based on personal beliefs and opinions. There is no way to argue against them.

Evil is a subjective term. The concept of evil dependant upon the values of the observer. To me evil is placing innocent, unwilling beings in a state of torment and suffering, dictating their value based upon actions that I may or may not agree with, favoring one group over another according to what I believe to be right and wrong, and punishing the others for eternity.

That does not fit into my concept of a benevolent being, and I choose not to believe it.

You're absolutely right; my ideas change nothing about the truth of the matter, which is that neither of us know the truth.

 

[Quiddity]

You mean this question:

Yup...

Do you mean man as in Adam? Well, according to Christian Mythology since the Adversary, commonly known as Satan, was around before the creation of Adam then I would have to say yes, God is still responsible for creating evil, since the angels are one of his creations as well.

It doesn't matter how far you go back. The point is that if Satan or Adam hadn't committed any evil, would you still blame God? If so, why? If not, why?

Remember: Satan and Adam both presumably still have the ability to do so.

 

[Rejected]

Yup...

It doesn't matter how far you go back. The point is that if Satan or Adam hadn't committed any evil, would you still blame God? If so, why? If not, why?

Remember: Satan and Adam both presumably still have the ability to do so.

Even though I might not choose to tie my shoes in the morning my shoes still exist.
I have the ability to tie my shoes, therefore shoes must exist.
If one has the ability to perform evil, evil must exist.

My answer is still yes.

I'm not blaming god for anything.
Like I said, one has to beleive in god to blame god.

I blame humans for evil. Other people seem to find it necesssary to blame God.

 

[Quiddity]

If one has the ability to perform evil, evil must exist.

This makes no sense. I hope you ponder over it.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

Evil is a subjective term. The concept of evil dependant upon the values of the observer. To me evil is placing innocent, unwilling beings in a state of torment and suffering, dictating their value based upon actions that I may or may not agree with, favoring one group over another according to what I believe to be right and wrong, and punishing the others for eternity.

I think you have been suffocated by religious dogma. As a young child my grandparents would drag me to Sunday School. I hated it, I hated the dresses, and the shoes that cramped my feet. But mostly I hated having to sing 'yes Jesus loves me', because my grandfather, on a regular basis would tell me I was demon spawn, I was concieved out of wedlock, and just being alive made me a sinner not worth saving.

I wanted nothing to do with that and as soon as I was able to have a say so, I stayed away from church and wanted to hear nothing 'those people' had to say.

I can't say what exactly brought me back to believing in God. I think anyone who is truly seeking TRUTH, and PURPOSE OF LIFE, will eventually find it. I do not know of any religion that holds all the same beliefs as I do. I have found that among every religion, there are similarities, and differences. Science tells us that if something is true, it will repeat itself over and over again. This is how I seek religious truth. If something repeats itself from one religion to another, to another, this is what is God's Truth. I don't see a dualistic reality, I do not see evil vs. good. I see evil/good, two sides of the same coin.

When we add into this the law of karma, or reaping and sowing, you will see, that when you do something that hurts someone, even by accident, some day, the same thing will happen to you. Evil is a word to describe undesirable acts or that which causes undesirable feelings.

And none of us are 'innocent unwilling beings'. Free will began before you were born. You chose to be here, wether you remember that or not is up to you.

 

[Rejected]

This makes no sense. I hope you ponder over it.

How does it not make sense?

The existence of an action is prerequisite to the ability to perform the action.

It makes perfect sense.

If evil did not exist then it would be impossible to perform evil acts.

 

[Quiddity]

How does it not make sense?

The existence of an action is prerequisite to the ability to perform the action.

It makes perfect sense.

If evil did not exist then it would be impossible to perform evil acts.

The action doesn't exist. Only the ABILITY. That's the point.
What you are saying is that if the ability exist, then so does the action. Which is incorrect.

 

[Rejected]

The action doesn't exist. Only the ABILITY. That's the point.
What you are saying is that if the ability exist, then so does the action. Which is incorrect.

Go take a logic course.

If I have the ability to do anything, lets call it drive a car, then in order for that ability to exist then cars must exist.

If cars did not exist then the ability to drive a car would not exist.

By simply stating that the ability to drive a car exists then one implies that cars exist.

 

[Rejected]

I think you have been suffocated by religious dogma. As a young child my grandparents would drag me to Sunday School. I hated it, I hated the dresses, and the shoes that cramped my feet. But mostly I hated having to sing 'yes Jesus loves me', because my grandfather, on a regular basis would tell me I was demon spawn, I was concieved out of wedlock, and just being alive made me a sinner not worth saving.


I wanted nothing to do with that and as soon as I was able to have a say so, I stayed away from church and wanted to hear nothing 'those people' had to say.

I can't say what exactly brought me back to believing in God. I think anyone who is truly seeking TRUTH, and PURPOSE OF LIFE, will eventually find it. I do not know of any religion that holds all the same beliefs as I do. I have found that among every religion, there are similarities, and differences. Science tells us that if something is true, it will repeat itself over and over again. This is how I seek religious truth. If something repeats itself from one religion to another, to another, this is what is God's Truth. I don't see a dualistic reality, I do not see evil vs. good. I see evil/good, two sides of the same coin.

When we add into this the law of karma, or reaping and sowing, you will see, that when you do something that hurts someone, even by accident, some day, the same thing will happen to you. Evil is a word to describe undesirable acts or that which causes undesirable feelings.

I was never forced to go to church when I was six years old. I went of my own volition. Every Sunday Morning my sister and I, and eventually my brother would walk a couple of blocks to a church that made my family feel welcome when we moved into my town. My parents never suggested that we go, but they never told us not to go either. They let us figure it out for ourselves.

I met many wonderful people growing up in that church, people whom I have great respect for and love dearly, to this day. The compassion they showed us when my mother was diagnosed with cervical cancer and had to have surgery is something I could never repay. They kept my family fed through that winter. They showed me that there are still good people who care for one another on this planet. They showed me what it means to "love thy neighbor."

I stopped going when going to church made me feel bad for doing things that I saw no harm in. When I stopped going I started to question some of things that the church taught; things that were inconsistent with some of my values; that even though a person may be a good person if they hadn't accepted Jesus they were doomed. That sounds a little self-centered, and there are other problems I have with the church which reflect poorly on the institution. The Christian religion, so far as I have experienced it, is guilty of things which I will not attribute to god, and teaches as historical fact things that are simply ridiculous. Research has revealed to me things which discredit the religion entirely and I have made the decision not believe.

I am glad you have been able to reconcile your issues with the church and find happiness. I have not, nor do I feel the need to.

I do not see Good vs. Evil either. Good and evil are subjective terms. I see a state of existence. If I am not happy with the way things are then it is up to me to make a change. As I have said in some other posts, I am not an atheist, but If God truly is benevolent then I do not believe he is the Christian God. I make no claims to know the will of god or what happens after death; only death will reveal these things to us, if then. The only things I can do is marvel at the universe around, lament the human condition, and hope that one day we will all learn to “love thy neighbor” without imposing our views on each other.

 

[Quiddity]

Go take a logic course.

If I have the ability to do anything, lets call it drive a car, then in order for that ability to exist then cars must exist.

If cars did not exist then the ability to drive a car would not exist.

By simply stating that the ability to drive a car exists then one implies that cars exist.

Reductio ad absurdum