Did God create God, or was God always there?

[blackout]

I believe the concepts of beginnings and ends are products of our minds and can be set aside. I think creation is an ongoing process. I think we are in the middle of creation now.




In the created there is the presence of the uncreated. In my story this is God.

I like all of this Stephen.

I think creation is an ongoing process as well.
We also, are "Creator",
and SelfAwareness of God.

 

[sindbad5]

believing in something you see or touch or hear is not a faith, it's realization.
for example, people in the past have a "faith" that there are things that cause illness, but it wasn't realization until the invention of microscope that allowed us to see bacteria and viruses.

"is allah (god ) created himself?" wrong question, creation concept itself is created by Allah to fit our minds. you simply don't realize allah, you believe in allah, and sure you can support your believe by many evidences and proofs to make it logic to your brain circuits.

another work around to help here, since begin and end, life and death are all creations of allah, you simply can't apply these laws on the creator itself. it's not logic, right?

ofcourse non-belivers will read these and laugh, but it's a matter of faith not realization, one of the most repeated concepts in quran where it's get emphesised tenth of times is insightness of the human being.

 

[PolyHedral]

I'm not sure which god-concepts are said to have created themselves, but that's illogical and thus impossible.

It's only illogical if God can't time-travel.

 

[Willamena]

I can't speak for all god-concepts, but theologians of the Abarhamic God tend to define "omnipotence" as the capacity to actualize any logically possible states of affairs. This means that even an omnipotent being couldn't do something that's logically impossible (since there's nothing to be "done," logical impossibilities can't exist).

Many of the same theologians also hold that God is ontologically necessary; meaning that it's impossible for God not to exist. This is a stronger ontological statement than just saying something definitely exists beyond any doubt (i.e. something absolutely known to exist): it means that it couldn't have even been otherwise.

If we assume these premises for the sake of argument then indeed God couldn't have had any hand in His own existence because His existence is necessarily so; and even His omnipotence couldn't make it otherwise. Indeed, they would say it is beyond God's control (but that such doesn't limit His power).

They aren't assumed just for the sake of argument, they are assumed semantically. If something is impossible, it cannot be done, else it wasn't impossible. God is ontologically necessary, else "it" can't be God.

 

[PolyHedral]

The above looks like circular reasoning, and almost certainly is if you assign more attributes to God. There doesn't seem to be a reason that a omnipotent/benevolent/whatever entity must exist.

 

[Willamena]

The above looks like circular reasoning, and almost certainly is if you assign more attributes to God. There doesn't seem to be a reason that a omnipotent/benevolent/whatever entity must exist.

If you mean what I wrote, it's neither an argument nor circular. It's an observation, and while not a necessary one, still one that might help improve an argument overall.

 

[PolyHedral]

I meant this statement,

God is ontologically necessary, else "it" can't be God.

 

[Willamena]

I meant this statement,

Right.

What does it mean for something "to be ontologically..." stated? It means to make reference to its existence, which necessarily entails an "it".

 

[Tathagata]

It is logically incoherent to say that "God created himself."

In order to create himself, he would have had to existed prior to the beginning of his existence, but this is clearly a logical impossibility.

Also, Abrahamic doctrines don't say he created himself, it says God created everything but himself as God is eternal.

And to those suggesting that the universe has always existed along side God, that is false. God created the cosmos from nothing, ex nihilo. That's what is meant by the word "create." If God is merely working with materials that were already there (like the person claiming that God "formed" things), then he would be a constructor, not a creator. Create means to make something from nothing. Construct means to make something from something.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Man created god. Only man would create a god with human attributes.

 

[Willamena]

It is logically incoherent to say that "God created himself."

I agree --because god is all things, so basically it says that "God god godgod," and that's not coherent.

 

[PolyHedral]

In order to create himself, he would have had to existed prior to the beginning of his existence, but this is clearly a logical impossibility.

Unless time travel is involved.

 

[Tathagata]

I agree --because god is all things, so basically it says that "God god godgod," and that's not coherent.

Uh, no, that's not why it's incoherent. It's incoherent for the reasons I listed in my initial post.

Your reason doesn't apply because we're not talking about the Pantheist God. Were talking about the Abrahamic God. Though, you are correct, the Pantheist God cannot be said to have created anything because God is everything.

 

[Penumbra]

I find both concepts of something always having existed and something coming from nothing fairly logically absurd, whether it's a universe or a god or all of existence.

Based purely on intuition, the concept of something always having existed, in one form or another, is less ridiculous to me than something coming from pure nothingness.

 

[Zadok]

Something that I oftentimes took for granted during my years as a Christian, my beliefs entailed that God had always existed without beginning or end. I never gave it a second thought further to question and debate this in any detail till my CoF so here goes....

Kicking off the talk/debate on this subject with three initial starter questions geared for Christians and Abrahamic theists in general, conducent with your views on approaching this by way of any scriptures or personal opinion(s) in light of which there are, and have been, actual opinions expressed pro and con by Christians and other Abrahamic faiths, I ask these questions from which I had never personally found an answer for during my time spent a Christian.

1) As God is said to be eternal, in which he never had any manner of beginning nor will have an end, is this then an example of something that God actually never had any kind of hand in, and therefore was not in control of his own creation?

2) As God is said to have created himself, satisfying the various mentions that he created all things, than how is this rectified with eternal creation meaning there was absolutely nothing beforehand and creation started with the creation of God?

3) Is there any biblical references or related mentions anywhere that addresses this in way of support or denial?

For Christians John 1:1 and Genesis 1:1 suggests an eternal and always existing god, and Col 1:16 and Rev 22:13 suggests that God had created himself.

If you are good at apologetics give it a try.

There is at least one other possibility. If G-d is a being that is able to move in time (and by all indications time is not a parameter to G-d) then his initial beginning is not relevant. Because such a G-d being is able to exist or not exist at any period that time exist and perhaps even outside of time such a being would present a paradox to our space time. Since we do not understand what we can observe of space time there is no way we would or could recognize a being that is able to move in time unless that being specifically allowed it. And if they so desired they could return and remove any evidence or apply any evidence. All such evidence would not be time dependent and appear to all beings dependent in time as a paradox.

I might add that mathematically quantum mechanics predicts that it is possible for “things” to be able to exist or move in non linear progressions in time. In addition the concept that the universe (space time) exist as a 4 dimensional sphere surrounded in singularity means that all points in our universe are both center and boundary points – This theory gives rise to the theory of worm holes. This also indicates that it is possible for things to move non-linearly in time. Thus we have theories in science and outside of religion that a G-d can exist and that such a being would not have consistent evidence (without paradox) of their existence – which is the exact reason that many claim not to believe in G-d – Go figure?

Zadok