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Did God create the universe, or did the universe create God?

ecman51`

Member
The Bible has it that God created the universe. If so, then why, without exception, are there no changes, just for the heck of it? Like, why doesn't God fancy himself or us -to get us to wonder - by say stopping the sun and sending it backwards? Or why doesn't he show us that a lightning bolt (or tornado) can be stopped mid-air on the way down to kill a faithful Christian, rather than allow it to hit and kill the Christian?

I don't think there has ever been one case (outside of Bible STORIES) where God has bent the rules of the Universe to make for some exception. This clearly shows me that God is not in control of the Universe, but the Universe is in control of him.

What do YOU say?
 
Personally I believe God is in control of the universe because of the relative rapidness of evolution and the complexness of human life.
I would also like to mention that most scientists believe the universe had a beginning point. Before this point nothing physical existed. Therefore something beyond our physical realm created the physical, this we call supernatural.
The supernatural created something organized and therefore has what we would call intelligence. This intelligent and supernatural thing that guided the evolutionary process is called God.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Personally I believe God is in control of the universe because of the relative rapidness of evolution and the complexness of human life.
I would also like to mention that most scientists believe the universe had a beginning point. Before this point nothing physical existed. Therefore something beyond our physical realm created the physical, this we call supernatural.
The supernatural created something organized and therefore has what we would call intelligence. This intelligent and supernatural thing that guided the evolutionary process is called God.
That is an inaccurate representation of what most scientists think.

They typically do not assert that the universe had a beginning, and neither do they typically assert that nothing physical existed. This particular form of the universe had something akin to a beginning. Not necessarily existence itself.
 
That is an inaccurate representation of what most scientists think.

They typically do not assert that the universe had a beginning, and neither do they typically assert that nothing physical existed. This particular form of the universe had something akin to a beginning. Not necessarily existence itself.

I should have made my assertion more clear.
My assertion was that this universe had a beginning. In the next sentence I was stating my opinion that this is the only universe and that before this there was nothing physical. My reasoning behind this is ( and i could be wrong because i am no scientist) that our universe is constantly expanding and has infinite room to do so.
If I am correct some scientists most notably Richard Dawkins, assert that universes gave birth to other universes and that by chance this universe happened to support life.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I think what we call personal god(s) are very much part of the universe, including the Christian god.
 

Twig pentagram

High Priest
The Bible has it that God created the universe. If so, then why, without exception, are there no changes, just for the heck of it? Like, why doesn't God fancy himself or us -to get us to wonder - by say stopping the sun and sending it backwards? Or why doesn't he show us that a lightning bolt (or tornado) can be stopped mid-air on the way down to kill a faithful Christian, rather than allow it to hit and kill the Christian?

I don't think there has ever been one case (outside of Bible STORIES) where God has bent the rules of the Universe to make for some exception. This clearly shows me that God is not in control of the Universe, but the Universe is in control of him.

What do YOU say?
I say the universe is god.
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
Yes, God created the universe.

As to why, I quote the Baha'i scriptures:

“O SON OF MAN!
“Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty. “
--The Hidden Words, Part One, #4

Best! :)

Bruce
 

Vansdad

Member
The Bible has it that God created the universe. If so, then why, without exception, are there no changes, just for the heck of it? Like, why doesn't God fancy himself or us -to get us to wonder - by say stopping the sun and sending it backwards? Or why doesn't he show us that a lightning bolt (or tornado) can be stopped mid-air on the way down to kill a faithful Christian, rather than allow it to hit and kill the Christian?

I don't think there has ever been one case (outside of Bible STORIES) where God has bent the rules of the Universe to make for some exception. This clearly shows me that God is not in control of the Universe, but the Universe is in control of him.

What do YOU say?
I believe God created the universe and the physical laws that "keep it together and working". Having said that I do not believe that God can "break" these laws but within them can do miraculous things. Like when a tornado moves a house without harming anyone who's inside. And I believe God to be a living being as we are living beings but obviously much more superior to us. And not "God is the universe" way of thinking. And BTW not all funnel clouds touch down.
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
I say the universe created god; gives me a wider field of study. We really don't know jack about god, but we learn more about the universe daily. ;)
 
Abdul-baha speaks on this subject in Some Answered Questions:

One of the proofs and demonstrations of the existence of God is the fact that man did not create himself: nay, his creator and designer is another than himself.
It is certain and indisputable that the creator of man is not like man because a powerless creature cannot create another being. The maker, the creator, has to possess all perfections in order that he may create.
Can the creation be perfect and the creator imperfect? Can a picture be a masterpiece and the painter imperfect in his art? For it is his art and his creation. Moreover, the picture cannot be like the painter; otherwise, the painting would have created itself. However perfect the picture may be, in comparison with the painter it is in the utmost degree of imperfection.
The contingent world is the source of imperfections: God is the origin of perfections. The imperfections of the contingent world are in themselves a proof of the perfections of God.
For example, when you look at man, you see that he is weak. This very weakness of the creature is a proof of the power of the Eternal Almighty One, because, if there were no power, weakness could not be imagined. Then the weakness of the creature is a proof of the power of God; for if there were no power, there could be no weakness; so from this weakness it becomes evident that there is power in the world. Again, in the contingent world there is poverty; then necessarily wealth exists, since poverty is apparent in the world. In the contingent world there is ignorance; necessarily knowledge exists, because ignorance is found; for if there were no knowledge, neither would there be ignorance. Ignorance is the nonexistence of knowledge, and if there were no existence, nonexistence could not be realized.
It is certain that the whole contingent world is subjected to a law and rule which it can never disobey; even man is forced to submit to death, to sleep and to other conditions—that is to say, man in certain particulars is governed, and necessarily this state of being governed implies the existence of a governor. Because a characteristic of contingent beings is dependency, and this dependency is an essential necessity, therefore, there must be an independent being whose independence is essential.
In the same way it is understood from the man who is sick that there must be one who is in health; for if there were no health, his sickness could not be proved.
Therefore, it becomes evident that there is an Eternal Almighty One, Who is the possessor of all perfections, because unless He possessed all perfections He would be like His creation.
Throughout the world of existence it is the same; the smallest created thing proves that there is a creator. For instance, this piece of bread proves that it has a maker.
Praise be to God! the least change produced in the form of the smallest thing proves the existence of a creator: then can this great universe, which is endless, be self-created and come into existence from the action of matter and the elements? How self-evidently wrong is such a supposition!
These obvious arguments are adduced for weak souls; but if the inner perception be open, a hundred thousand clear proofs become visible. Thus, when man feels the indwelling spirit, he is in no need of arguments for its existence; but for those who are deprived of the bounty of the spirit, it is necessary to establish external arguments.
 

ecman51`

Member
....( and i could be wrong because i am no scientist) that our universe is constantly expanding and has infinite room to do so.

Yet, if one thinks deeply about this, it would seem quite odd that substance could expand into the something of nothingness, and travel about, which all matter does, in that nothingness. Today, scientists believe that there is unaccounted for dark matter in the nothingness, that accounts for something like 70% of all the mass of the universe. Therefore, the expanse of the universe is not really nothing at all.


If I am correct some scientists most notably Richard Dawkins, assert that universes gave birth to other universes and that by chance this universe happened to support life.

Where then one can ask where did the first universe come from, of course.

(BTW, to anyone intereseted, you can watch Richard Dawkins interviews and lectures on YouTube.) If you are person of faith, you will need every bit of it, if you listen to him long enough.
 

Twig pentagram

High Priest
Only if the stars of the universe can communicate with each other the way the neurons in our brains do. Then, yes. Because to believe in a 'god' is saying you believe in an intelligence (a brain, as it were), that made us
Incorrect, god is a subjective ideal.
 

FR33MASON

New Member
The universe was created to be in a constant state of variance. It is one of the amazing and beautiful aspects of this existence. Kudos to the powers that were behind the making of this universe sentient, or otherwise.
 
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McBell

Unbound
I don't think there has ever been one case (outside of Bible STORIES) where God has bent the rules of the Universe to make for some exception. This clearly shows me that God is not in control of the Universe, but the Universe is in control of him.

What do YOU say?
Is it not even remotely possible that god chooses to not bend the 'rules' of the universe?

The reason I ask is that it seems to me that you are making a rather large leap in logic claiming that because god does not do something he must not be ABLE to do said something.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Could be. You'll only know, if God doesn't wake you up from the dead to send you on to heaven or hell.

wow isnt that a bit of a stretch of mans imagination.

You dont think man created god???

You seem to know allot about the afterlife for someone who has never been there. Such a place that no man has ever returned from to tell the tale of what its exactly like,,, but you have this magical power no one else does. this is amazing!

let me tell you something about mans imagination.

homo sapiens have live on the earth 200,000 years, they had fire, art and stone tools, the whole time from the first generation. Ill tell you something else they had. Religion.

when man sat around a fire at night there was the fire spirit and there were smoke gods that carried the evil spirits away. there were the rain gods that kept the food growing, there were hunting gods and there were animal spirits.

heres a little known fact

every single tribe in every heathenistic part of the world no matter how social or how remote has beliefs in something that is not real. THERE is not 1 tribe that believes in nothing, not 1!

the farther out the tribe is away from society the more wacked out and strange the beliefs and myths are. The more modern and the more advanced the people are, the more resonable the myths and beliefs are. This is where you come in my friends. make no mistake in my opinion all past gods are and have been proven to be myths but for some magical reason out of thousands in the past. yours is the only imaginative figure thats real. [funny this works for every religion not just yours]

To show you how much man wants to have more then the life he was born with, man imagines he can continue into another life after this one. stop and think about it for a minute. How did that work for the egyptions???? the lavish tombs, the offering's the riches! the faith was outstanding! but yet not one person has ever come back from the dead.

enter our religions, tales were told when man was still writing on rock and written language was poor. As mans writing abilities evolved onto paper so did his imagination not just for all the things he did not know BUT for the things he wanted as well. The only reason realigion spread was mans ability to communicate increased with writing and the beliefs grew.

make no mistake about imagination and fiction based around a few loose unprovable facts. There was a mortal man named jesus who was a hellenitsic traveling teacher of judaism who died because he made a stink in a town he should not have and wanted to become a martyr, it was a great idea because his tales were told for decades around campfires before they were written down so you could know his story. Its a shame that he died and his real story was lost into religious dogma that built the story around his real life into something it wasnt.

jews created your god somewhere around 3500 years ago. home sapiens had been on the planet for roughly 196,000 years and then magically ONLY when writing took off did ancient mans imagination get recorded.
 
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