Did jesus become a curse or a blessing for us

[sojourner]

strange how the woman who God himself was in for 9 months and the woman who would instruct and educate Jesus would be a sinful person when God could do something about it.

But, i understand many do not believe in Mary at all.

Doesn't the doctrine of the IC sort of insulate Mary from the point of Matthew's gospel, which is that there is good and bad in the Church? Look at the geneaology. It lists women, all of whom were "dirty" by the Jewish standards of the day: Bathsheba, Tamar, Rahab, etc. Mary can only be in that list if she remianed "tainted" by the flesh. I think the doctrine completely undermines Matthew's message.

 

[free spirit]

TO Cristine ES
[

quote=ChristineES;1547655]My problem has always been about the Epistles written by Paul. I know they were written before the gospels, but what Paul said doesn't seem to always add up to what Jesus said in the Gospels. It almost always does- but there are a few instances when Paul said things that Jesus wasn't quoted as saying in the Gospels. Most of the Churches I have belonged to and have attended seem to be mostly taken from Paul's writings. I have nothing against Paul at all, but Jesus was the Messiah, not Paul.
One big example is Jesus saying to take care of widows and Paul putting conditions on it.

ChristineES, you are obviously refering to the verses in 1st. Timothy 5 - 8 to 15, in which we read, "But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith, and is worse than an unbeliever.
I have inserted Italics words to make you better understand, so read the scriputers below with the Italic and without.
Let a widow be out on the list of intercessors only if she is not less than sixty years old, having been the wife of one man, having a reputation for good works; and if she has brought up children, if she has shown hospitality to strangers, if she has washed the saint feet, if she has assisted those in distress, and if she has devoted herself to every good works. But refuse to put younger widows on the list, of intercessor for when they feel sensual desires in disregard of christ, they want to get married, thus incurring condennation, because they have set aside their previous pledge. and at the same time they also lerne to be idle, as they go around from house to house; and not merely idle, but also gossips and busybodies, talking about things not proper to mention. therefore, i want younger widows to get married, bear children, keep house, and give the enemy no occasion for reproach; for some have already turned aside to follow Satan.
If we connect the above scriptures to verse 8 on the surface would appear that Paul is putting conditions to receive help, but that is not so. Paul in this case is a victim of those who wish to destroy his teaching, because the above writings are not intendet to address widow's charety but they are intended to extablish the criteria of eligibility to enter the group of the intercession ministry.
How did i come to this unilateral conclusion, you may ask? There are two things contained in !st. Timothy 5 - 8 to 15, that are not in harmony with the gospel. firstly there is this unexplainable phrase

"But refuse to put younger widows on the list, for when the feel sensual desires in disregard of Christ, they want to get married thus incurring condemnation, because they have set aside their previous pledge."
What previous pledge? for we all know that it is written that widows are released from the pledge to their deceased husband and can get married to whom they wish. And how is she in diregard of Christ??? It is obvious to me that Satan has made the rules for establishing the interceding ministry invisible, also using this second implied connection for he has connected the graceful Christian acts of charity with the obvious uncharitable judgment of the would be recipient.
Therefore young women (or any one else for that matter) should not be allowed on the list and be part of the group of intercessors, because; if we have sensual desires in our lives our interest is divided.
It is confirmad in Luke 2 - 36 - 37, "And there was a prophetess, Anna the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived with a husband seven years after her marriage, and then as a widow to the age of eighty-four. And she never left the temple, serving interceding night and day with fasting and prayers."
The above verse contain among other things the fact that Anna had one husband, strange as it may seem 1st. Timothy 5 - 9, makes this a condition in order to be included on the list of intercessors.

Another is about women- Jesus taught women and even had a woman (the woman by the well) to tell people about Him (other Samaritans) while Paul dismissed women to be silent.

[/QUOTE] next time we will look at the women ministry.

 

[emiliano]

Hi! averyone;
We all know that the New Testament has been in the hands of men for 2000 years, I believe that in the first 100 years some evil man has introduced in the sacred word anomalies which are the cause of the many Christian faiths.
Here is one of them.
In Galatians 3 - 13, We read; "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the LAW, having become a curse for us- for it is written, "cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree."
I believe that the original verse would have read, "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the LAW, having FULFILLED THE LAW for us.

What do you think, did he become a CURSE or a BLESSING for us?
:shout

I think that the verse is self-explanatory for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree" Where is it written? It is written in the Law, right? Redeemed at time that this was written meant bought-back and was related to the selling and buying of slaves and the dealing of bondservants, The Lord taught that those in sin are enslaved to sin and that what He came to do was to pay the price of their redemption and set them free/truly free. The manner in which the master was killed was a great offence to His disciple all of them Jewish Jews and if you consider that Paul the writer of the Epistle was a Pharisee then you would understand why he expressed it in this way I don’t think that this is a malicious addition to the scripture, consider this other Epistle to the Philippians

Phl 2:7
but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, [and] coming in the likeness of men.​

So we have that the price that Jesus pied for us was one of physical suffering in the likes of men sinful men yet he lived a sinless life he fulfilled the Law, he was obedient yet He stood in our instead and took the punishment that we deserve for our sins, in addition to the physical suffering He suffered humiliations to the point of having an undignifying death as the Apostle expresses it in:

Phl 2:8
And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to [the point of] death, even the death of the cross.​

This type of execution was the ultimate humiliation even Pilate thought that Jesus didn’t dissevered it and carried it out under duress. When Paul says “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the LAW” could be that he is referring to the glorious resurrection of our Lord and His exaltation.

Phl 2:9
Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, ​

That name is “Redeemer” and Lord ,

Phl 2:10
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
Phl 2:11
and [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father. ​

 

[emiliano]

When looking at Paul’s Epistles we must look into the times at which they were written in the cases of who should be in the list of intercessor and who should not be what the Apostle does is to set out administrative guide lines for the churches that he founded, he counsel Timothy to make sure that the widows receiving support from the congregation are truly widows, this is what free spirit points out, what the Apostle is saying, I had a look at a commentary and found that in those day they had some kind of social security payments for widows, but it was most of the time not enough and congregation took care of the short fall, thus Paul counsels care in the selection of those that work for the church counsel that still is very valid, intercessors are very important to a congregation and the selections of it member must be strict so as not to bring discredit to the whole congregation, I agree with this: If we connect the above scriptures to verse 8 on the surface would appear that Paul is putting conditions to receive help, but that is not so. Paul in this case is a victim of those who wish to destroy his teaching, because the above writings are not intended to address widow's charity but they are intended to establish the criteria of eligibility to enter the group of the intercession ministry. Although I do not think that this could be an attempt to destroy the Apostle’s teaching just not researching, anyways we have lot of member that are history inclined and FS want have any trouble getting his point across.

 

[free spirit]

I think that the verse is self-explanatory for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree" Where is it written? It is written in the Law, right?

:angel2:
Galatians 3 - 13, we read, "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us, for it is written; Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree."
It is ludicrous to say that he redeemed us from the curse of the law, by allowing himself to become a curse for us, just by dying while hanging on a tree.
Threfore, before we go any further it is important for us to understand that the tree is only a tool to administer death to a condemned man. We must sorely know that it is the sins that the man has committed that makes him accursed, and not the way he dies.
That is why the law become a curse for us, because we could not keep it, and consequently we merited death because of our transgressions; and not because the law in itself was bad. (So, death is not a curse, but it's the consequence of sin.) He came to fulfil the law for us. And by fulfilling the law he absorbed the law in himself, therefore he became a blessing for us, because he freed us from the curse of the law written on tablets of stone, having replaced them with the law of the spirit of himself. (The Holy Spirit) I feel it is correct for the above verse of galatians 3 - 13, to read; "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having FULFILLED THE LAW for us."
Yes, our Lord become flesh for us and consequently he was made sin for us, because the flesh and sin is one and the same. Also our Lord (who is a type of Adam) took us faithfuls in himself on the cross, he also took the sins of the whole world on the cross for the justification of all humanity, as he fulfilled the law by being obedient even to death. But none of the above is a curse in itself, I repeat; the law became a curse because we could not keep it, and not because it was bad. And by doing all of the above he became a blessing for all those who believe and obey him.:yes:

I must also mention the somewhat incorrect and misquoted verse of Deuteronomy 21 - 23, which says, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree." Yes... this incomplete verse is quoted out of context, because if we read the above verse in context with verse 22 we discover that it does not apply to our Lord, for we read; "And if a man has committed a sin worthy of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day, (for he who is hanged is accursed of God) so that you do not defile your land which the Lord your God gives you as a inheritance."
So you see verse 23 does not apply to our Lord, because our Lord did not commit a sin worthy of death, in fact he was sinless, regardless of how he appeared to those that witness, or condemned him to death.
Certainly he was made sin but never committed sin, isn't that something that we should rejoice about? For by doing that, Jesus stripped sin of the power of the law.
Furthermore in 1st. Corinthians 12 - 3, we read; "That no one speaking by the spirit of God says, Jesus is accursed." So with those undisputed proof in hand, we should only come to one obvious conclusion; that the Scriptures suggesting that our blessed Lord became a curse for us, is nothing but a "blasphemous diversion" working against the knowledge of the accomplished works of our Lord.
If you are not yet convinced, I would suggest to you, to insert the corrected verse in Galatian 3 - 13, and judge it in context and you will see that the whole chapter, and indeed all of Galatians, is explaining to us how the curse of the law has been replaced by having faith in the grace of Christ, who paid the price for us by enduring the brutal sufferings of the cross and yet died sinless, and thus fulfilled the law for us, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith in him.
(Read 1st. Corinthians 15 - 55 to 57, and you will see that death and sin are defeated by the fulfilment of the law, and not by dying hanging on a tree.
Read Romans 5 - 17 to 21, and you will also see that through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through the total obedience of the law of one man resulted justification of life to all men.
It is vital that all believers understand the book of Galatians, which explains, faith in the grace of Christ, in contrast to the works of the law. Satan knows that, and so he uses all means in order to defend the written ambiguity, which clearly denigrates the character of our God, the accomplished works of our Lord, and the character and epistles of his Apostles.:candle:

 

[free spirit]

TO EMILIANO

QUOTE]

When looking at Paul’s Epistles we must look into the times at which they were written in the cases of who should be in the list of intercessor and who should not be what the Apostle does is to set out administrative guide lines for the churches that he founded, he counsel Timothy to make sure that the widows receiving support from the congregation are truly widows,

Not only truly widows, but that those widows should have prooven themselves to have done holy works. But we all know or should know, that giving charity is an act of compassion and no one put conditions on that. For if a widow has needs how can anyone (let alone a Christian) refuse hes the assistance on the basis that she has not been perfect, and therefore not worthy to receive help from the church. we know that if we do that, we throw the love for our neighbour out of the window, and we become worse then unbelievers.

this is what free spirit points out, what the Apostle is saying, I had a look at a commentary and found that in those day they had some kind of social security payments for widows, but it was most of the time not enough and congregation took care of the short fall, thus Paul counsels care in the selection of those that work for the church counsel that still is very valid,

I do not see any kind of social security there; help one another and expecially menbers of your own family yes, but social security no.

intercessors are very important to a congregation and the selections of it member must be strict so as not to bring discredit to the whole congregation, I agree with this:

So I am fully convinced that the selection and judgment criterion for the list of the would be participants mentioned in 1st. Timothy 5 - 9 10, is for the holy and beloved intercession group, which must be selected before they are put on the list and pledged to this helpfull and vital ministry.

If we connect the above scriptures to verse 8 on the surface would appear that Paul is putting conditions to receive help, but that is not so. Paul in this case is a victim of those who wish to destroy his teaching, because the above writings are not intended to address widow's charity but they are intended to establish the criteria of eligibility to enter the group of the intercession ministry.Although I do not think that this could be an attempt to destroy the Apostle’s teaching just not researching, anyways we have lot of member that are history inclined and FS want have any trouble getting his point across.

PAUL HAD ALL KINDS OF PROBLEMS WITH THE JEWS, FOR THEY WERE ALWAYS QUESTIONING HIS TEACHINGS.

 

[emiliano]

Free Spirit,

I must also mention the somewhat incorrect and misquoted verse of Deuteronomy 21 - 23, which says, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree." Yes... this incomplete verse is quoted out of context, because if we read the above verse in context with verse 22 we discover that it does not apply to our Lord, for we read; "And if a man has committed a sin worthy of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day, (for he who is hanged is accursed of God) so that you do not defile your land which the Lord your God gives you as a inheritance."
So you see verse 23 does not apply to our Lord, because our Lord did not commit a sin worthy of death, in fact he was sinless, regardless of how he appeared to those that witness, or condemned him to death.
Certainly he was made sin but never committed sin, isn't that something that we should rejoice about? For by doing that, Jesus stripped sin of the power of the law.

I don’t know why you say that this does not applies because in the eyes of the scribes and Pharisees Jesus was worthy of death they made these charges against Him but could not carry the sentence out, in fact they were waiting for an opportunity to not only kill the Master of the new founded faith but to humiliate Him, Jesus and His disciples were Jews and to them this was the ultimate humiliation and that is the reason for the resurrection, that is why the Lord came to His disciples, to reassure them that He was who He said He was, Paul the Apostle was an educated Pharisee so He saw it as an humiliating curse

Phl 2:8
And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to [the point of] death, even the death of the cross.​

 

[free spirit]

Free Spirit,

I don’t know why you say that this does not applies because in the eyes of the scribes and Pharisees Jesus was worthy of death

He said that he was the son of God, making himself equal to God. which was a sin punisheble by death. But it was the truth therefore was not a sin for Jesus. Obviously the sin deserving death wich vould have made him accursed of God did not exist. If he became accursed, when did he became unaccursed.

they made these charges against Him but could not carry the sentence out, in fact they were waiting for an opportunity to not only kill the Master of the new founded faith but to humiliate Him,

John 11 - 47 - 48, Therefore the chief priest and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, What are we doing? for this man is performing many signs. if we let him go on like this, all men will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation."
You see their real purpose was so they would not loose the congregation and with that loose also their prestigious position and their religion, (nation)

Jesus and His disciples were Jews and to them this was the ultimate humiliation

Death on the cross was reserved for harden cryminals and for the enemy of Rome.
the charge that was put on the cross was "Jesus the nazarene the king of the Jews "
A self proclaim king, therefore an enemy of Rome.

Paul the Apostle was an educated Pharisee so He saw it as an humiliating curse

No read the verse for it says that he became accursed of God

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Phl&c=2&v=1&t=NKJV#comm/8#comm/8

Phl 2:8http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Phl&c=2&v=1&t=NKJV#comm/8#comm/8http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Phl&c=2&v=1&t=NKJV#comm/8#comm/8

​

And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to [the point of] death, even the death of the cross.​

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In order to fulfill the law he was obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross​

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[emiliano]

In order to fulfill the law he was obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross​

You are skipping “he humbled himself and” This humbling one self is not in the Law so it not fulfilling the Law “consider others better than yourselves” is a new commandment

Jhn 14:15
"If you love me, you will obey what I command.
Jhn 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
​

 

[free spirit]

to emiliano

in order to fulfill the law he was obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross​

you are skipping “he humbled himself and” this humbling one self is not in the law so it not fulfilling the law “consider others better than yourselves” is a new commandment

philippians 2 - 5 to 8, have this attitude in yourselves which was also in christ jesus, who, although he existed in the form of god, did not regard equality with god a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
if you read that in context you will find that he did that two times, first by leaving is position in the form of god, and again in the form of man, that is to say he served, even to die on the cross. He did that to fulfill the law for us, for we sece Adam were not able to do, he died sinless so he fulfilled the law. By doing that he justified all of humanity. in Adam we should all die in Christ we should all live.
jhn 14:15

"if you love me, you will obey what i command.
jhn 13:34
a new commandment i give to you, that you love one another; as i have loved you, that you also love one another. ​

 

[Benedict]

The Problem here is in my opinion a translational one. There is another verse which says:

"[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. [/FONT]" (2 Kor 5:21)

In both cases it seems to state, that Jesus was made into something, a curse or sin, so that we receive God's blessing and righteousness. It looks as if an exchange is happening here. However I did read a good book a long time ago which explained some of the grammatical difficulties in translating passages like this. When a context is known or taken for granted, the greek would not explicitly state it. In this example it would be, that Jesus was made a sacrifice for sin. Knowing the context, that Jesus is the sacrifice, this word would drop and one could state the particular type of sacrifice without the word "sacrifice" in it, which in this case would be "sin". So, Jesus was not made sin for us, but a sacrifice for sin. The same can be said about the curse. Jesus was not made a curse but a sacrifice for the curse.

 

[free spirit]

The Problem here is in my opinion a translational one. There is another verse which says:

The problem is more likely to be understanding than traslation.

"[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. [/FONT]" (2 Kor 5:21)

God made him flesh therefore he was made sin, because flesh and sin is one and the same. Sin is not a curse the law became a curse for us because we could not keep it, therefore he came to fulfill the law for us, so that we might became the righteouseness of in him. So he became a blessing for us.

In both cases it seems to state, that Jesus was made into something, a curse or sin, so that we receive God's blessing and righteousness. It looks as if an exchange is happening here. However I did read a good book a long time ago which explained some of the grammatical difficulties in translating passages like this. When a context is known or taken for granted, the greek would not explicitly state it. In this example it would be, that Jesus was made a sacrifice for sin. Knowing the context, that Jesus is the sacrifice, this word would drop and one could state the particular type of sacrifice without the word "sacrifice" in it, which in this case would be "sin". So, Jesus was not made sin for us, but a sacrifice for sin. The same can be said about the curse. Jesus was not made a curse but a sacrifice for the curse.

Jesus mission was to fulfill the law it was a sacrifice because it cost him his life, and he had to die sinless in order to accomplish his mission. By fulfilling the law he freed us from the curse of the law.

 

[Benedict]

free spirit: "God made him flesh therefore he was made sin, because flesh and sin is one and the same. Sin is not a curse the law became a curse for us because we could not keep it, therefore he came to fulfill the law for us, so that we might became the righteouseness of in him. So he became a blessing for us."

free spirit: "Jesus mission was to fulfill the law it was a sacrifice because it cost him his life, and he had to die sinless in order to accomplish his mission. By fulfilling the law he freed us from the curse of the law."

You're contradicting yourself here. On the one hand you say that Jesus was made flesh and therefore sinful (because flesh and sin is one and the same), but on the other hand you say that "he had to die sinless to accomplish his mission". How do you reconcile this?

 

[free spirit]

free spirit: "God made him flesh therefore he was made sin, because flesh and sin is one and the same. Sin is not a curse the law became a curse for us because we could not keep it, therefore he came to fulfill the law for us, so that we might became the righteouseness of in him. So he became a blessing for us."

free spirit: "Jesus mission was to fulfill the law it was a sacrifice because it cost him his life, and he had to die sinless in order to accomplish his mission. By fulfilling the law he freed us from the curse of the law."

You're contradicting yourself here. On the one hand you say that Jesus was made flesh and therefore sinful (because flesh and sin is one and the same), but on the other hand you say that "he had to die sinless to accomplish his mission". How do you reconcile this?

Yes... he was made flesh therefore he was made sin, because temptation is in his flesh, but he never sinned therefore his soul was sinless or holy and acceptable to God. ACTS 2 - 33.

 

[HouseofIsrael]

Jesus put an end to the sacrificial law not all the laws. God's laws and commandments remains forever and we are to live by them. The purpose of the law is to identify sin so as long as you're under the works of the law (transgressing -working against the law), you're under a curse (Gal. 3:10). It is a sin for a man to take his own life (hanging on a tree -symbolic to suicide) because he didn't give life to himself and that is one of the reasons why Jesus was sacrificed to end the sacrificial law Heb. 10:4 (suicide, killing of bulls and goats to take away one sins -he abolished it etc).

Matt. 5:17-18 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets -I am not come to destroy but to fulfill" Jesus own words.

 

[free spirit]

Jesus put an end to the sacrificial law not all the laws. God's laws and commandments remains forever and we are to live by them. The purpose of the law is to identify sin so as long as you're under the works of the law (transgressing -working against the law), you're under a curse (Gal. 3:10). It is a sin for a man to take his own life (hanging on a tree -symbolic to suicide) because he didn't give life to himself and that is one of the reasons why Jesus was sacrificed to end the sacrificial law Heb. 10:4 (suicide, killing of bulls and goats to take away one sins -he abolished it etc).

Why only the sacrificial law, he came to fulfill the law, it mean averything contained in the law. But it does not mean that we are lawless, for he replaced the law with his spirit, so if we live within his spirit of faith and love, we also fulfill the law.
galatians 5 - 13 - 14, "For you were called to fredom, bretheren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Matt. 5:17-18 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets -I am not come to destroy but to fulfill" Jesus own words.

Romans 3 - 28 to 31, For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. Do we then nullify the law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the law."
In other words by living within the spirit of Christ, we are actually freely living within the law. We can also say, our Adam character has been replased by Christ Character, if indeed the spirit of the Lord dwells in us.
So he became a blessing.