Did Jesus call himself a prophet?

[Muffled]

Prophet and prophesize are used entirely incorrectly nowadays. They do not have anything to do with predicting the future. A prophet is one who speaks for God, or reveals God's will, or is a teacher on God's behalf.

That is incorrect. Prophets did predict the future and the test of a prophet was whether his predictions came true.

A prophet does this but Jesus only appears to fulfill it, since He isn't speaking for God but is God speaking.

A prophet also performs signs and miracles. Jesus also qualifies in that respect because of His healing, raising the dead, the stilling of the wind, the multiplying of the bread and turning water into wine.

 

[Muffled]

Did Jesus call himself a prophet?

What is the OT statement about prophets and how to determine if one truly is one?

What does it say to be done to anyone who preaches to not obey the Mosaic Law according to the OT definition of prophets?



It is commonly stated by "Christians" that Jesus abrogated parts or all of the Jewish Law. How would that jive with what the OT says about prophets if Jesus calls himself a prophet?

It says that God is greater than His law. It also says that it is better to serve a living law than a dead and man mangled one.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Before we go there, perhaps you should first tell us what text you believe to be authoritative and why.

Let's just go by the same Gospels used by most "Christians" for the sake of simplicity.

Simplicity is fine if not abused. So, just to be clear, are you saying that you consider the Gospels to be authoritative, i.e., accurate, and, if so, would you mind giving us an idea of who you believe authored them and when? Thanks.

 

[sojourner]

Mark 6:4

New International Version (©1984)
Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor."

Apparently Jesus meant something else? Was he merely comparing himself to a prophet?

The words were Isaiah's -- not Jesus'. He merely said that the prophecy had been fulfilled in the audience's hearing.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The words were Isaiah's -- not Jesus'.

Do you have the reference?

 

[sojourner]

Do you have the reference?

Luke 4:15ff

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

New International Version (©1984)
Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor."

The words were Isaiah's -- not Jesus'. He merely said that the prophecy had been fulfilled in the audience's hearing.

Do you have the reference?

Luke 4:15ff

I'm sorry, but I understood you to be claiming that the words quoted by Shermana "were Isaiah's -- not Jesus'." If so, I do not find that suggested by Luke. What am I missing?

 

[sojourner]

I'm sorry, but I understood you to be claiming that the words quoted by Shermana "were Isaiah's -- not Jesus'." If so, I do not find that suggested by Luke. What am I missing?

Jesus reads the scroll of Isaiah, in which it is written, "I have been sent to release the captives...and proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." Then Jesus said, "Today, this has been fulfilled in your hearing." When the audience became angry, Jesus said, "A prophet...in his hometown." I don't think it was Jesus specifically calling himself a prophet. he was referring to Isaiah and the fulfillment of that prophecy -- not to himself as a prophet.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Jesus reads the scroll of Isaiah, in which it is written, "I have been sent to release the captives...and proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." Then Jesus said, "Today, this has been fulfilled in your hearing." When the audience became angry, Jesus said, "A prophet...in his hometown."

OK ...

I don't think it was Jesus specifically calling himself a prophet. he was referring to Isaiah and the fulfillment of that prophecy -- not to himself as a prophet.

Be that as it may, I still see no indication that the words quoted above were Isaiah's.

 

[sojourner]

I still see no indication that the words quoted above were Isaiah's.

Which words? Jesus was reading from the scroll. What Luke quotes Jesus as reading is Isaiah. Right?

When Jesus (not Isaiah) says, "A prophet is not a prophet..." he's offering commentary on the audience's reaction to his statement that the prophecy (Isaiah's -- not Jesus') had been fulfilled (by Jesus) in the audience's hearing. The fulfiller of the prophecy isn't the prophet. In fact, I suspect what had the people so upset wasn't that Jesus was prophesying, but that he had the hubris to suggest that he had actually fulfilled a prophecy (fulfilling prophecy is God's job, yes?)

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Which words?

Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor."

The words were Isaiah's -- not Jesus'. ....

The words quoted in the quote to which you responded ...

 

[sojourner]

The words quoted in the quote to which you responded ...

there were several words in the quotation. Some of them are attributed to Jesus, some are references to Isaiah, some are Luke's narrative.

 

[Shermana]

there were several words in the quotation. Some of them are attributed to Jesus, some are references to Isaiah, some are Luke's narrative.

Hmmm, and I suppose you have some strange version of Isaiah that has these words? Does Sojourner have some secret document of Isaiah that even the DSS scholars are unaware of? This would be a great find. Or is he deliberately hoping to pass off some total fabrication about what Isaiah says in a desparate attempt to evade a critical point that may undermine his entire Theology? Happens often with "Christians" it seems.

 

[Shermana]

Which words? Jesus was reading from the scroll. What Luke quotes Jesus as reading is Isaiah. Right?

When Jesus (not Isaiah) says, "A prophet is not a prophet..." he's offering commentary on the audience's reaction to his statement that the prophecy (Isaiah's -- not Jesus') had been fulfilled (by Jesus) in the audience's hearing. The fulfiller of the prophecy isn't the prophet. In fact, I suspect what had the people so upset wasn't that Jesus was prophesying, but that he had the hubris to suggest that he had actually fulfilled a prophecy (fulfilling prophecy is God's job, yes?)

'I'd love to see a SINGLE commentary that agrees with your statement that Jesus was quoting ISaiah or commenting on some kind of idea that he is the fulfillment of a prophet, while still referring to himself in the 3rd person.



Even if he was, why would he be quoting it to begin with if he wasn't calling himself a prophet?

Otherwise, kindly admit this is your own unique interpretation that you are trying to pass off as matter of fact. There is no verse in Isaiah that says this. None. To even try to pass it off as such, especially if you have no commentary that agrees is just....well, I'll leave it at that.

I challenge anyone reading to prove that Sojourner is not making this up.

 

[Shermana]

Simplicity is fine if not abused. So, just to be clear, are you saying that you consider the Gospels to be authoritative, i.e., accurate, and, if so, would you mind giving us an idea of who you believe authored them and when? Thanks.

Personally I don't consider them 100% accurate, but I think they are close enough (i.e. over 80%) to what the originals may have contained that we can garner with reasonable accuracy what most of it may have contained, (i.e. Matthew is a later redacted version of Gospel to the Hebrews, John was heavily edited, Mark was heavily edited, Luke is....well, Luke) and I don't think the passage in question has any reason to suspect of interpolation.

As for who authored the versions we have, I believe they went through redactions at the hands of the proto-orthodox, even Matthew. I think lots was snipped out, such as with the "Egerton Papyrus", I think the originals may have been circulating not too long after Paul began preaching and the versions reached their culmination in what the proto-orthodox became familiar with around the end of the 1st century.

 

[Shermana]

You haven't said what you think He means.

I think I quite clearly implied that I believe he was in fact calling himself a prophet, maybe I wasn't so clear.

If this is what you think He means then I don't see anything in His statement that supports it.

You're right, there are no statements to support that he meant anything less than that he was a prophet. So that's not what I meant obviously.

Since Jesus does prophetic things and is often perceived as a prophet because of them, then He can use the term in relation to Himself even though He doesn't fulfill exactly what a prophet is.

Why doesn't he exactly fulfill what a prophet is? Did he not predict the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in your view?

It says that God is greater than His law. It also says that it is better to serve a living law than a dead and man mangled one.

Ahem, did you even read the question? Did you deliberaetly read it as something else? The question was what happens to those who say they are prophets while teaching against Mosaic Law. The answer to the question would be: It says to fling rocks at their face until they are smashed to death if they claim to be a prophet while teaching against Mosaic Law.

I find your answer interesting though, were you just hoping to take a cheap shot at the Law by calling it "Dead and mangled"? I find traditional "Christian" docrine to be dead and mangled. Why would you call the Law "dead and mangled", what's that supposed to mean? It was perhaps mangled by the Pharisees. But as for dead, God says the Law is for ALL generations, for all time, til the Thousandth generation and beyond. To say it was suddenly dead means you think God was a liar when He said that.

 

[arthra]

Mark 6:4

New International Version (©1984)
Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor."

Apparently Jesus meant something else? Was he merely comparing himself to a prophet?

Jesus alludes to Himself as a prophet in the verse above...Gospel of Mark:

6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

6:4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

and in the Gospel of Luke:

4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son? 4:23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.
4:24 And he said,

Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.

 

[arthra]

There's another referecne Jessu made that I think could be taken as a reference to Himself as a prophet in Luke 13:33:

Nevertheless I must go on my way to-day and to-morrow and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.