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Did Jesus Christ Actually Exist?

joelr

Well-Known Member
That is simply not true.
No and the actual doctrine looks to be even more-so simply not true.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe death is a state of nonexistence with no consciousness. There is no Hell of fiery torment; Hades and Sheol are understood to refer to the condition of death, termed the common grave.[156] Witnesses consider the soul a life or a living body that can die.[157] They believe that humanity is in a sinful state,[157] from which release is possible only by means of Jesus' shed blood as a ransom, or atonement, for humankind's sins.[158]

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that a "little flock" of 144,000 selected humans go to heaven, but that God will resurrect the majority (the "other sheep") to a cleansed earth after Armageddon. They interpret Revelation 14:1–5 to mean that the number of Christians going to heaven is limited to exactly 144,000, who will rule with Jesus as kings and priests over earth.[159] They believe that baptism as a Jehovah's Witness is vital for salvation,[160] and do not recognize baptism from other denominations as valid.[161] Jehovah's Witnesses believe that some people who died before Armageddon will be resurrected, will be taught the proper way to worship God, and face a final test at the end of the millennial reign.[162] This judgment will be based on their actions after resurrection rather than past deeds. At the end of the thousand years, Christ will hand all authority back to God. Then a final test will take place when Satan is released to mislead humankind. Those who fail will die, along with Satan and his demons.[163] They also believe that those who rejected their beliefs while still alive will not be resurrected and will continue to experience a state of non-existence.[164]
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
No philosophy of dualism provides evidence for anything supernatural. It doesn't demonstrate the divine. It's just evidence for a state of mind.
Precisely, that's always been my point. It follows too that dualistic science should understand it can have no significant understanding of religious non-dualism practices.

Btw, what do you mean by the divine?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Some say the parts about Jesus in their writings were forgeries and others think they were authentic.
Actually, what's considered forgery with Josephus was the part about Jesus being a miracle worker and bringing wondrous signs etc. Not everything about Jesus. The part where he refers to Jesus as "the one they called Messiah" or "Tu Legomenos Kristu" is well known to be absolutely authentic to Josephus.

That's a very important matter to consider because Josephus mentions Jesus passingly. Just to identify James the brother of Jesus. That makes it very profound because a passing comment shows he has no bad intentions or biases in mentioning Jesus. By the way, I think Josephus mentions some 13 or 14 messiah figures. Jesus was only one of them. Also mentioning James is a highly important factor to consider. This increases the probability that Jesus existed.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
I don't see anything about souls, heaven or any Hellenistic thing because it hadn't been invented yet. Living forever was a concept all religions had in some form. Hellenism is very specific. Not one aspect is in the OT. They didn't borrow it until the NT.
Souls that return to it's eternal home away from the fallen earth. Savior demigods. Not in Genesis.
Sorry, I don't believe your claims, because there simply is no good reason to do so.

However, I think the idea of "demigods" comes here:

When men began to multiply on the surface of the ground, and daughters were born to them, God’s sons saw that men’s daughters were beautiful, and they took any that they wanted for themselves as wives.
Gen. 6:1-2

And I think many people could have had the same idea, because they witnessed or heard of the same matters. It does not necessary mean they copied something, or that what is written in the Bible is wrong.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...I am presenting. I can continue to present evidence ...
The problem is, I would require substantial evidence.
Modern geology, its sub-disciplines and other scientific disciplines use the scientific method to analyze the geology of the earth. The key tenets of flood geology are refuted by scientific analysis and do not have any standing
When they don't understand how the flood happened, they can't see the evidence for it.
The global flood cannot explain geological formations such as angular unconformities, where sedimentary rocks have been tilted and eroded then more sedimentary layers deposited on top, needing long periods of time for these processes.
There is no good reason why it would need long time. All findings can be explained by the flood theory, if it is understood correctly. But, it does not mean that everything we can now see is because of the flood. Angular unconformities can be for example because there were several phases of that flood and also because earth was not uniform before the flood, which is why the differences.
There is also the time needed for the erosion of valleys in sedimentary rock mountains. In another example, the flood, had it occurred, should also have produced large-scale effects spread throughout the entire world. Erosion should be evenly distributed, yet the levels of erosion in, for example, the Appalachians and the Rocky Mountains differ significantly
Distribution depends on the situation. On a plain you don't have same things as for example in mountain areas.
Geochronology is the science of determining the absolute age of rocks, fossils, and sediments by a variety of techniques. These methods indicate that the Earth as a whole is about 4.54 billion years old, and that the strata that, according to flood geology, were laid down during the Flood some 6,000 years ago, were actually deposited gradually over many millions of years.
The problem with that is, it is based on certain assumptions that can be wrong.
A single flood could also not account for such features as angular unconformities, in which lower rock layers are tilted while higher rock layers were laid down horizontally on top.[119]
They just don't know how it happened. It does not mean it didn't happen.
The engineer Jane Albright notes several scientific failings of the canopy theory, reasoning from first principles in physics. Among these are that enough water to create a flood of even 5 centimetres (2.0 in) of rain would form a vapor blanket thick enough to make the earth too hot for life, since water vapor is a greenhouse gas; the same blanket would have an optical depth sufficient to effectively obscure all incoming starlight.[120]
I think that is ridiculous claim. Firstly, rain clouds are not boiling, clouds cool planet, which is why some want to make artificial clouds to cool planet because they have the foolish idea that there is some kind of climate crisis.

However, the worst mistake is that people think the flood came only by rain. Yes, Bible tells it rained a long time, which obviously cooled the planed, as rain tends to do. But, Bible tells the water came from the "fountains of the great deep". Under the dry land (=earth), there was wast water resource. Most of the water came from there, not by rain.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
But please, explain to me, with counterexamples, how John Collins pointing out the evidence of Persian influence in the OT would be considered a "low standard" for evidence.
It is not good, because it is possible people get similar ideas without copying others. Also, it could as well be said that the others copied from Jews.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No and the actual doctrine looks to be even more-so simply not true.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe death is a state of nonexistence with no consciousness. There is no Hell of fiery torment; Hades and Sheol are understood to refer to the condition of death, termed the common grave.[156] Witnesses consider the soul a life or a living body that can die.[157] They believe that humanity is in a sinful state,[157] from which release is possible only by means of Jesus' shed blood as a ransom, or atonement, for humankind's sins.[158]

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that a "little flock" of 144,000 selected humans go to heaven, but that God will resurrect the majority (the "other sheep") to a cleansed earth after Armageddon. They interpret Revelation 14:1–5 to mean that the number of Christians going to heaven is limited to exactly 144,000, who will rule with Jesus as kings and priests over earth.[159] They believe that baptism as a Jehovah's Witness is vital for salvation,[160] and do not recognize baptism from other denominations as valid.[161] Jehovah's Witnesses believe that some people who died before Armageddon will be resurrected, will be taught the proper way to worship God, and face a final test at the end of the millennial reign.[162] This judgment will be based on their actions after resurrection rather than past deeds. At the end of the thousand years, Christ will hand all authority back to God. Then a final test will take place when Satan is released to mislead humankind. Those who fail will die, along with Satan and his demons.[163] They also believe that those who rejected their beliefs while still alive will not be resurrected and will continue to experience a state of non-existence.[164]
I suggest you study the topics in the Bible.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I think we all know about the controversial writings of The Antiquities of the Jews by Flavius Josephus and The Annals of Tacitus for example. Some say the parts about Jesus in their writings were forgeries and others think they were authentic. But these men were not even born at the time of the supposed crucifixion of Jesus that happened in 30-33AD. They were born after his death.

The only reason I might believe that Jesus existed 'possibly' is through the Pilate stone finding by archaeologists in 1961 which was dated between AD 26-37. And this is the correct time frame for the events described in the Gospels. But this is not evidence for Jesus but for Pontius Pilate.

800px-Pilate_Inscription.JPG

The translation from Latin to English for the inscription reads:

To the Divine Augusti [this] Tiberieum...Pontius Pilate...prefect of Judea...has dedicated [this]...


Confirming this biblical figure's existence was crucial insofar that he played an important role in the execution of Jesus. This makes me think it's more plausible now that Pontius Pilate probably knew of a man named Jesus at the time and maybe even had a man named Jesus executed. But this is me just imagining such a scenario now. I can't ask Pilate what really happened then because he's been dead for about 2,000 years.

So, what is the evidence for Jesus?

I just go to Paul's letters and the knowledge that he was around, and maybe even in Jerusalem when Jesus lived and became a Christian not that long after Jesus was killed. Why would anyone become a Christian when they knew that the existence of Jesus and His death on the cross etc were fictions which the rest of the Jews of his day would also know?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Hindu meditate and say Brahman is the ultimate reality. Other religions have a different story. Mind is not reality, it's a part of reality. Some have a secular view from meditation. Its an assumption to insert mind as the fundamental reality.
So curious as to what you believe since you offer so many posts and claims about various subjects. Do you think that when a person dies he can still communicate with the living? Obviously some here do believe that. What do you think?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
So an irrelevant king said something stupid and that means the Bible is true?
Nope. But the king was evidently interested in what was going around at that time. Nothing unusual. But anyway, some people here do believe they an speak with the dead. So? Does that mean the Bible isn't true?
OK, P.S. I thought you were talking about King James, but I guess not. Anyway, I'm not convinced from any source going against the Bible that what they say is true. I believe the Bible is true. And helpful.
 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
Precisely, that's always been my point. It follows too that dualistic science should understand it can have no significant understanding of religious non-dualism practices.

Btw, what do you mean by the divine?
Why would science care about some claim that has no evidence?
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Why would science care about some claim that has no evidence?
Haha...wrt non-dualism, the universe is all that exists, and that is what science studies. So while the science approach to existence is dualistic, my religious practice is non-dualistic.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Sorry, I don't believe your claims, because there simply is no good reason to do so.
I don't care what you believe, I care about what the evidence presents.

I don't care if you pretend like the critical--historical field is fake while your stories are real.
I have given many examples, form the Bible, please offer an argument or I will assume you cannot and are just being a sore loser by refusing to acknowledge different lines of evidence.

I've already posted plenty of evidence from several scholars.



However, I think the idea of "demigods" comes here:

When men began to multiply on the surface of the ground, and daughters were born to them, God’s sons saw that men’s daughters were beautiful, and they took any that they wanted for themselves as wives.
Gen. 6:1-2

Again, I don't care what Genesis says. In the actual real world a demigod is - " the offspring of a god and a mortal,"

"A demigod is a part-human and part-divine offspring of a deity and a human, " That is the Gospel Jesus.




And I think many people could have had the same idea, because they witnessed or heard of the same matters. It does not necessary mean they copied something, or that what is written in the Bible is wrong.
Yes modern geology has several arguments that make a world flood impossible. I have given a summary of each to no reply.

Only in the Near East where Hebrew writers had access to were the stories extremely similar.


Sumerian Literature and the Bible

Prior to the discovery and decipherment of cuneiform script, human beings understood the origins of certain aspects of life in quite a different way. Writing was thought to have originated in Phoenicia, time-telling in China, schools in Greece, and the first love song in the biblical book of The Song of Solomon. The Old Testament of the Bible was considered the oldest book in the world until this was disproven by the German Assyriologist Friedrich Delitzsch (1850-1922 CE) who, building upon the work of men like George Smith, showed that the Sumerians had written stories concerning a fall of man and a great flood before the narratives of Genesis were ever set down. The scholar Paul Kriwaczek writes,

hus it was established that long before Genesis was committed to writing, the ancient Mesopotamians had themselves told the story of a universal flood sent by divine decree to destroy humanity. Soon other texts were discovered that gave similar accounts in several different languages – Sumerian, Old Akkadian, Babylonian – and in several different versions. In the oldest, found on a tablet from the city of Nippur, dated to around 1800 BCE and written in Sumerian, Noah's role is taken by a King of Shuruppak called Ziudsura or Ziusudra, meaning `he Saw Life”, because he was awarded immortality by the gods. In another, written in the 1600s BCE in the Akkadian language, the protagonist is called Atrahasis, meaning `Extremely Wise'. (69)

Conclusion

The Sumerians, therefore, can also be credited with the earliest form of one of the most potent myths of western civilization: The Great Flood. In attempting to prove the historical truth of the Bible, the archaeologists and scholars of the 19th century CE revealed that the biblical narratives held as absolute divine truths were later interpretations of the literature of the Sumerians.

As noted, however, it is not simply in the field of religious studies that the discovery of Sumer changed the way people understand the world in the present. In their many inventions and innovations, the Sumerians lay the groundwork for so many advancements in the daily lives of human beings that, today, it is impossible to imagine life without these things. Somehow, the people of Sumer were able to imagine things which had never existed on earth before and, in expressing their imaginations, invented the future.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
The problem is, I would require substantial evidence.
You have not even looked at, commented or tried to debunk any evidence.
There is substantial evidence. What I started with you ignored. So you are not interested in truth. You have not been honest from the start and I find no reason to believe anything you say at this point.



When they don't understand how the flood happened, they can't see the evidence for it.
Pace palm. If a world flood happened, there would be massive evidence. Exactly ZERO of that evidence happened. However, myths about world floods happened in the Near East and the Hebrew writers heard them in Mesopotamia and wrote their version when they returned.


Understanding how a flood happened has no bearing on the evidence it would leave behind.


There is no good reason why it would need long time.
All geologists agree it does. Are you a geologist?


All findings can be explained by the flood theory, if it is understood correctly.
Please write a paper that passes the geology peer-review process and explain why they are wrong and how to understand it correctly. Then explain how you know this and what the correct way to understand it is.
Or, just admit you are making stuff up because you bought into the story and refuse to look at evidence against it.



Modern geology and flood geology

Modern geology, its sub-disciplines and other scientific disciplines use the scientific method to analyze the geology of the earth. The key tenets of flood geology are refuted by scientific analysis and do not have any standing in the scientific community.[5][6][7][8][9] Modern geology relies on a number of established principles, one of the most important of which is Charles Lyell's principle of uniformitarianism. In relation to geological forces it states that the shaping of the Earth has occurred by means of mostly slow-acting forces that can be seen in operation today. By applying these principles, geologists have determined that the Earth is approximately 4.54 billion years old. They study the lithosphere of the Earth to gain information on the history of the planet. Geologists divide Earth's history into eons, eras, periods, epochs, and faunal stages characterized by well-defined breaks in the fossil record (see Geologic time scale).[111][112] In general, there is a lack of any evidence for any of the above effects proposed by flood geologists and their claims of fossil layering are not taken seriously by scientists.[113]



But, it does not mean that everything we can now see is because of the flood. Angular unconformities can be for example because there were several phases of that flood and also because earth was not uniform before the flood, which is why the differences.
What does "not uniform" mean and provide evidence this was the case. Again, you are making stuff up.




Distribution depends on the situation. On a plain you don't have same things as for example in mountain areas.
Which would have NO IMPACT on the differences between the mountains in the U.S. The flood was a limited time and would not produce these vast differences in mountain erosion.
Funny you ignore that and talk about plains. Total dodge.


The problem with that is, it is based on certain assumptions that can be wrong.
No, it's based on radio dating which is accurate. Creationists will tell you it isn't and that carbon dating only goes to 50,000 years. They ignore all the other types, relative and all methods used to compare and find accurate dates.
OF course when they date a Biblical artifact suddenly you trust dating methods.




They just don't know how it happened. It does not mean it didn't happen.
It doesn't matter how it happened. A huge flood would still effect lower and higher rock layers the same. And they do know because it says so in the Bible. Everything you are claiming is wrong.


I think that is ridiculous claim. Firstly, rain clouds are not boiling, clouds cool planet, which is why some want to make artificial clouds to cool planet because they have the foolish idea that there is some kind of climate crisis.
What you think has no bearing on what an expert knows. It doesn't matter where the flood comes from, it's the water vapor that would rise and create greenhouse effects. All life would have been destroyed.

It didn't because it's just a myth.





However, the worst mistake is that people think the flood came only by rain. Yes, Bible tells it rained a long time, which obviously cooled the planed, as rain tends to do. But, Bible tells the water came from the "fountains of the great deep". Under the dry land (=earth), there was wast water resource. Most of the water came from there, not by rain.
Which makes no difference. There would still be a greenhouse effect from any flood, even a small flood. See below.

There is no evidence for a global flood, it's not possible to survive, and we know it's borrowed mythology.

Also all. life did not begin in the Middle East. There would be a clear pattern of life emerging recently and yet there are far older species all over the world.

You cannot explain the :

Erosion should be evenly distributed, yet the levels of erosion in, for example, the Appalachians and the Rocky Mountains differ significantly



Geochronology


Geochronology is the science of determining the absolute age of rocks, fossils, and sediments by a variety of techniques. These methods indicate that the Earth as a whole is about 4.54 billion years old, and that the strata that, according to flood geology, were laid down during the Flood some 6,000 years ago, were actually deposited gradually over many millions of years.



Sedimentary rock features


Phil Senter's 2011 article, "The Defeat of Flood Geology by Flood Geology", in the journal Reports of the National Center for Science Education, discusses "sedimentologic and other geologic features that Flood geologists have identified as evidence that particular strata cannot have been deposited during a time when the entire planet was under water ... and distribution of strata that predate the existence of the Ararat mountain chain." These include continental basalts, terrestrial tracks of animals, and marine communities preserving multiple in-situ generations included in the rocks of most or all Phanerozoic periods, and the basalt even in the younger Precambrian rocks. Others, occurring in rocks of several geologic periods, include lake deposits and eolian (wind) deposits. Using their own words, Flood geologists find evidence in every Paleozoic and Mesozoic period, and in every epoch of the Cenozoic period, indicating that a global flood could not have occurred during that interval.[118] A single flood could also not account for such features as angular unconformities, in which lower rock layers are tilted while higher rock layers were laid down horizontally on top.[119]


Physics


The engineer Jane Albright notes several scientific failings of the canopy theory, reasoning from first principles in physics. Among these are that enough water to create a flood of even 5 centimetres (2.0 in) of rain would form a vapor blanket thick enough to make the earth too hot for life, since water vapor is a greenhouse gas; the same blanket would have an optical depth sufficient to effectively obscure all incoming starlight.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
It is not good, because it is possible people get similar ideas without copying others. Also, it could as well be said that the others copied from Jews.
Except the Persians had their religion since 1700 BCE, and teh OT NEVER MENTIONS ANY PERSIAN THEOLOGY, EVER. Until way later it's slowly introduced into the OT.
Angels didn't have individual names. Some other things Yahweh didn't mention -

- an evil power exists which is opposed to him, and not under his control; that he has emanated many lesser divinities to help combat this power; that he has created this world for a purpose, and that in its present state it will have an end; that this end will be heralded by the coming of a cosmic Saviour, who will help to bring it about; that meantime heaven and hell exist, with an individual judgment to decide the fate of each soul at death; that at the end of time there will be a resurrection of the dead and a Last Judgment, with annihilation of the wicked; and that thereafter the kingdom of God will come upon earth, and the righteous will enter into it as into a garden (a Persian word for which is 'paradise'), and be happy there in the presence of God for ever, immortal themselves in body as well as soul.


All new to Judaism after the Persian occupation. We know the Hebrew were open to Persian influence and it's almost 100%. You are refusing to see things in a non-bias way and do not care about what is likely true.


"These doctrines all came to be adopted by various Jewish schools in the post-Exilic period, for the Jews were one of the peoples, it seems, most open to Zoroastrian influences - a tiny minority, holding staunchly to their own beliefs, but evidently admiring their Persian benefactors, and finding congenial elements in their faith. Worship of the one supreme God, and belief in the coming of a Messiah or Saviour, together with adherence to a way of life which combined moral and spiritual aspirations with a strict code of behaviour (including purity laws) were all matters in which Judaism and Zoroastrianism were in harmony; and it was this harmony, it seems, reinforced by the respect of a subject people for a great protective power, which allowed Zoroastrian doctrines to exert their influence. The extent of this influence is best attested, however, by Jewish writings of the Parthian period, when Christianity and the Gnostic faiths, as well as northern Buddhism, all likewise bore witness to the profound effect: which Zoroaster's teachings had had throughout the lands of the Achaernenian empire."

Mary Boyce.


You can go into your Bible and seeSatan was not an evil power opposed to god and not under his control. Satan asks permission in Job. They speak freely several times. Yahweh sends Satan to deliver death to cities.

Sorry, this is clearly borrowed mythology.

Also these specific examples are way too serious to be oversights by Yahweh.


"14:20 resurrection of dead in Ezekiel, incidentally resurrection of the dead is also attested in Zoroastrianism, the Persians had it before the Israelites. There was no precent for bodily resurrection in Israel before this time. No tradition of bodies getting up from the grave. The idea of borrowing can be suggested.

In Ezekiel this is metaphorical.

The only book that clearly refers to bodily resurrection is Daniel.

17:30 resurrection of individual and judgment in Daniel, 164 BC. Prior to this the afterlife was Sheol, now heaven/hell is introduced. Persian period. Resurrection and hell existed in the Persian religion.
Resurrection of spirit. Some people are raised up to heaven, some to hell. New to the OT."


Yahweh can't even get the afterlife theology correct and the Persians had it correct? That is absurd. It can not be more obvious they are borrowing from the Persians. Because none of this is revelations from any god, It's man-made stories.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
@joelr--you wrote

Do you believe that?
I believe what the evidence presents to be most likely.
The historical experts agree -



Nick Gier. Emeritus Professor


The Iranian Impact on Judaism


excerpted from N. F. Gier, Theology Bluebook, Chapter 12

It was not so much monotheism that the exilic Jews learned from the Persians as it was universalism, the belief that one God rules universally and will save not only the Jews but all those who turn to God. This universalism does not appear explicitly until Second Isaiah, which by all scholarly accounts except some fundamentalists, was written during and after the Babylonian exile. The Babylonian captivity was a great blow to many Jews, because they were taken out of Yahweh's divine jurisdiction. Early Hebrews believed that their prayers could not be answered in a foreign land. The sophisticated angelology of late books like Daniel has its source in Zoroastrianism.3 The angels of the early Hebrew books were disguises of Yahweh or one of his subordinate deities. The idea of separate angels appears only after contact with Zoroastrianism.


The central ideas of heaven and a fiery hell appear to come directly from the Israelite contact with Iranian religion. Pre-exilic books are explicit in their notions the afterlife: there is none to speak of. The early Hebrew concept is that all of us are made from the dust and all of us return to the dust. There is a shadowy existence in Sheol, but the beings there are so insignificant that Yahweh does not know them. The evangelical writer John Pelt reminds us that “the inhabitants of Sheol are never called souls (nephesh).”4


Saosyant, a savior born from Zoroaster's seed, will come and the dead shall be resurrected, body and soul. As the final accounting is made, husband is set against wife and brother against brother as the righteous and the damned are pointed out by the divine judge Saosyant. Personal and individual immortality is offered to the righteous; and, as a final fire melts away the world and the damned, a kingdom of God is established for a thousand years.7 The word paradis is Persian in origin and the concept spread to all Near Eastern religions in that form. “Eden” not “Paradise” is mentioned in Genesis, and paradise as an abode of light does not appear in Jewish literature until late books such as Enoch and the Psalm of Solomon.

Satan as the adversary or Evil One does not appear in the pre-exilic Hebrew books. In Job, one of the very oldest books, Satan is one of the subordinate deities in God's pantheon. Here Satan is God's agent, and God gives him permission to persecute Job. The Zoroastrian Angra Mainyu, the Evil One, the eternal enemy of God, is the prototype for late Jewish and Christian ideas of Satan. One scholar claims that the Jews acquired their aversion to homosexuality, not present in pre-exilic times, to the Iranian definition of the devil as a Sodomite.8

In 1 Chron. 21:1 (a book with heavy Persian influences), the Hebrew word satan appears for the first time as a proper name without an article. Before the exile, Satan was not a separate entity per se, but a divine function performed by the Yahweh's subordinate deities (sons of God) or by Yahweh himself. For example, in Num. 22:22 Yahweh, in the guise of mal'ak Yahweh, is “a satan” for Balaam and his ***. The editorial switch from God inciting David to take a census in 2 Sam 24:1, and a separate evil entity with the name “Satan” doing the same deed in 1 Chron. 21:1 is the strongest evidence that there was a radical transformation in Jewish theology. Something must have caused this change, and religious syncretism with Persia is the probable cause. G. Von Rad calls it a “correction due to religious scruples” and further states that “this correction would hardly have been carried out in this way if the concept of Satan had not undergone a rather decisive transformation.”9

The theory of religious influence from Persia is based not only on the generation spent in exile but the 400 years following in which the resurrected nation of Israel lived under strong Persian dominion and influence. The chronicler made his crucial correction to 2 Sam. 24:1 about 400 B.C.E. Persian influence increases in the later Hebrew works like Daniel and especially the intertestamental books. Therefore Satan as a separate evil force in direct opposition to God most likely came from the explicit Zoroastrian belief in such an entity. This concept is not consistent with pre-exilic beliefs.


There is no question that the concept of a separate evil principle was fully developed in the Zoroastrian Gathas (ca. 1,000 B.C.E.). The principal demon, called Druj (the Lie), is mentioned 66 times in the Gathas. But the priestly Jews would also have been exposed to the full Avestan scripture in which Angra Mainyu is mentioned repeatedly. His most prominent symbol is the serpent, so along with the idea of the “Lie,” we have the prototype for the serpent/tempter, in the priestly writers' garden of Genesis.10 There is no evidence that the Jews in exile brought with them any idea of Satan as a separate evil principle.


In Zoroastrianism the supreme God, Ahura Mazda, gives all humans free-will so that they may choose between good and evil. As we have seen, the religion of Zoroaster may have been the first to discover ethical individualism. The first Hebrew prophet to speak unequivocally in terms of individual moral responsibility was Ezekiel, a prophet of the Babylonian exile. Up until that time Hebrew ethics had been guided by the idea of the corporate personality – that, e.g., the sins of the fathers are visited upon the sons (Ex. 20:1-2).


In 1 Cor. 15:42-49 Paul definitely assumes a dual-creation theory which seems to follow the outlines of Philo and the Iranians. There is only one man (Christ) who is created in the image of God, i.e., according to the “intellectual” creation of Gen. 1:26 (à la Philo). All the rest of us are created in the image of the “dust man,” following the material creation of Adam from the dust in Gen. 2:7.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
So curious as to what you believe since you offer so many posts and claims about various subjects. Do you think that when a person dies he can still communicate with the living? Obviously some here do believe that. What do you think?
No. There is no evidence for consciousness without the brain. The soul is an archaic concept that also has no evidence. The OT had people "sleeping" in the grave until they adopted the Persian myth of a final resurrection after god/satan battle and later the Greek Hellenistic concepts of a soul that belongs in the afterlife. Those were myths and when borrowed are still myths.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I believe what the evidence presents to be most likely.
The historical experts agree -



Nick Gier. Emeritus Professor


The Iranian Impact on Judaism


excerpted from N. F. Gier, Theology Bluebook, Chapter 12

It was not so much monotheism that the exilic Jews learned from the Persians as it was universalism, the belief that one God rules universally and will save not only the Jews but all those who turn to God. This universalism does not appear explicitly until Second Isaiah, which by all scholarly accounts except some fundamentalists, was written during and after the Babylonian exile. The Babylonian captivity was a great blow to many Jews, because they were taken out of Yahweh's divine jurisdiction. Early Hebrews believed that their prayers could not be answered in a foreign land. The sophisticated angelology of late books like Daniel has its source in Zoroastrianism.3 The angels of the early Hebrew books were disguises of Yahweh or one of his subordinate deities. The idea of separate angels appears only after contact with Zoroastrianism.


The central ideas of heaven and a fiery hell appear to come directly from the Israelite contact with Iranian religion. Pre-exilic books are explicit in their notions the afterlife: there is none to speak of. The early Hebrew concept is that all of us are made from the dust and all of us return to the dust. There is a shadowy existence in Sheol, but the beings there are so insignificant that Yahweh does not know them. The evangelical writer John Pelt reminds us that “the inhabitants of Sheol are never called souls (nephesh).”4


Saosyant, a savior born from Zoroaster's seed, will come and the dead shall be resurrected, body and soul. As the final accounting is made, husband is set against wife and brother against brother as the righteous and the damned are pointed out by the divine judge Saosyant. Personal and individual immortality is offered to the righteous; and, as a final fire melts away the world and the damned, a kingdom of God is established for a thousand years.7 The word paradis is Persian in origin and the concept spread to all Near Eastern religions in that form. “Eden” not “Paradise” is mentioned in Genesis, and paradise as an abode of light does not appear in Jewish literature until late books such as Enoch and the Psalm of Solomon.

Satan as the adversary or Evil One does not appear in the pre-exilic Hebrew books. In Job, one of the very oldest books, Satan is one of the subordinate deities in God's pantheon. Here Satan is God's agent, and God gives him permission to persecute Job. The Zoroastrian Angra Mainyu, the Evil One, the eternal enemy of God, is the prototype for late Jewish and Christian ideas of Satan. One scholar claims that the Jews acquired their aversion to homosexuality, not present in pre-exilic times, to the Iranian definition of the devil as a Sodomite.8

In 1 Chron. 21:1 (a book with heavy Persian influences), the Hebrew word satan appears for the first time as a proper name without an article. Before the exile, Satan was not a separate entity per se, but a divine function performed by the Yahweh's subordinate deities (sons of God) or by Yahweh himself. For example, in Num. 22:22 Yahweh, in the guise of mal'ak Yahweh, is “a satan” for Balaam and his ***. The editorial switch from God inciting David to take a census in 2 Sam 24:1, and a separate evil entity with the name “Satan” doing the same deed in 1 Chron. 21:1 is the strongest evidence that there was a radical transformation in Jewish theology. Something must have caused this change, and religious syncretism with Persia is the probable cause. G. Von Rad calls it a “correction due to religious scruples” and further states that “this correction would hardly have been carried out in this way if the concept of Satan had not undergone a rather decisive transformation.”9

The theory of religious influence from Persia is based not only on the generation spent in exile but the 400 years following in which the resurrected nation of Israel lived under strong Persian dominion and influence. The chronicler made his crucial correction to 2 Sam. 24:1 about 400 B.C.E. Persian influence increases in the later Hebrew works like Daniel and especially the intertestamental books. Therefore Satan as a separate evil force in direct opposition to God most likely came from the explicit Zoroastrian belief in such an entity. This concept is not consistent with pre-exilic beliefs.


There is no question that the concept of a separate evil principle was fully developed in the Zoroastrian Gathas (ca. 1,000 B.C.E.). The principal demon, called Druj (the Lie), is mentioned 66 times in the Gathas. But the priestly Jews would also have been exposed to the full Avestan scripture in which Angra Mainyu is mentioned repeatedly. His most prominent symbol is the serpent, so along with the idea of the “Lie,” we have the prototype for the serpent/tempter, in the priestly writers' garden of Genesis.10 There is no evidence that the Jews in exile brought with them any idea of Satan as a separate evil principle.


In Zoroastrianism the supreme God, Ahura Mazda, gives all humans free-will so that they may choose between good and evil. As we have seen, the religion of Zoroaster may have been the first to discover ethical individualism. The first Hebrew prophet to speak unequivocally in terms of individual moral responsibility was Ezekiel, a prophet of the Babylonian exile. Up until that time Hebrew ethics had been guided by the idea of the corporate personality – that, e.g., the sins of the fathers are visited upon the sons (Ex. 20:1-2).


In 1 Cor. 15:42-49 Paul definitely assumes a dual-creation theory which seems to follow the outlines of Philo and the Iranians. There is only one man (Christ) who is created in the image of God, i.e., according to the “intellectual” creation of Gen. 1:26 (à la Philo). All the rest of us are created in the image of the “dust man,” following the material creation of Adam from the dust in Gen. 2:7.
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