did jesus exist?

[Oberon]

I read that Jesus had a brother named James.

I'm sure you did.

 

[dogsgod]

And that proves it. Jesus is real.

 

[outhouse]

they are historical records of actual events

First thing you have to understand is that the historical records not only have credibility issues due to outright forgerys to interpetation differences.

39 books of Hebrew Scripture, and a set of 27 books isnt to hard to study.

The oldest surviving Christian Bibles are Greek manuscripts from the 4th century
the oldest complete Jewish Bible is a greek translation, also dating to the 4th century

Jewish Scripture ends with the people of Israel restored to Jerusalem and the temple and the Christian arrangement ends with the book of the prophet Malachi

new testament

synoptic gospels
pauline epistles
pastoral epistles
general epistles
revelation

When ancient scribes copied earlier books, written in koine greek they wrote notes on the margins of the page to correct their text.

finding two people to agree on it seems to be pretty tough, its just a matter of who's translation of evidence to which a particular party follows is what actually gets debated

 

[outhouse]

jesus did exist, so did mark's, brians, joes bobs ect ect.

the christian jesus ans his lack of any real historical evidence is still up for debate

 

[Oberon]

they are historical records of actual events

First thing you have to understand is that the historical records not only have credibility issues due to outright forgerys to interpetation differences.

I can read greek, and I've read a great deal of classical texts. I am well aware of textual critical issues. They are far less problematic with the NT given the enormous volume of texts we are working with compared to most classical and hellenistic texts.

39 books of Hebrew Scripture, and a set of 27 books isnt to hard to study.

It is if you can't read hebrew or greek and haven't read the relevant scholarship and primary sources which 1) help you put the texts in historical and cultural context and 2) stop you from reinventing the wheel or putting forth arguments which were addressed a century or more ago.

The oldest surviving Christian Bibles are Greek manuscripts from the 4th century
the oldest complete Jewish Bible is a greek translation, also dating to the 4th century

Actually p52 dates from the second century.

When ancient scribes copied earlier books, written in koine greek they wrote notes on the margins of the page to correct their text.

Have you ever read a critical apparatus of a classical text?


Still waiting to hear what scholarship you have read.

 

[outhouse]

scholarship? wouldnt waist my time on there beliefs of a myth. I do admire you for knowing more then most though, reading in its natural language. Gives you a very clear sense of what they were trying to say, such as "let light be made"

Most believe there was a actual jesus type charactor but no where near historicaly accurate in any sense as the bible states.

You can read all the script you want, there are no answers there that validate authenticity 200-300 years after the fact.

show me some writting of the man himself, such a popular man should have something written down somewhere? How about a document about his life during his supposed life span? surely such a important charactor [according to your scripts] a local scribe of the 48 known would have recorded something, and if not, why not.

 

[dogsgod]

How are you going to know Jesus is historical if you don't read the scholarship by the experts that believe Jesus is historical?

 

[outhouse]

Thats easy, you dont have to. If you do its %100 there interpretation not your own.

jesus did not appear in text until long after his death, there is no real evidence that one can base historical facts by.

 

[fallingblood]

39 books of Hebrew Scripture, and a set of 27 books isnt to hard to study.

The oldest surviving Christian Bibles are Greek manuscripts from the 4th century
the oldest complete Jewish Bible is a greek translation, also dating to the 4th century

This is all I will focus on. We are dealing with 66 different books. It may not look like much at first, but we have to consider that they are written over a very long time period, in various types of genres, and for different reasons. Each of those factors do pose difficulties in the research. Not to mention that they are written in a different language, and that poses yet another difficulty.

The fact that there are so many views on the separate books of the Bible shows that they are not the easiest to study. And that there are so many various factors coming into play in that study, shows again that they are not the easiest to study.

That is not mentioning the background in which they were written. The cultural, religious, and political backgrounds play a factor in it as well. That is why one can spend their entire lives dedicated to just the study of the Bible.

As for the dating of various Biblical books we have, they date earlier than what you give credit to. The Dead Sea Scrolls is a great example of how we have older Old Testament texts than you give credit to. And as Oberon mentioned, we have New Testament text back to 125 C.E. give or take 25 years. And that isn't even including the mentioning or allusion to different New Testament writings in other sources of work.

A field you may be interested in doing some research in is textual criticism. If would probably help you in this case.

 

[Oberon]

scholarship? wouldnt waist my time on there beliefs of a myth.

So you haven't read any? And as for "their" beliefs, you do know that plenty aren't christian, right? Furthermore, how can you judge how accurate the scholarship is if you haven't read it? Have you read scholarship on the culture and diversity of the ancient roman empire? Can you read greek or latin or hebrew? Have you studied scholarship on religious movements in the roman empire? Or any scholarship that might be useful here?

How about a document about his life during his supposed life span? surely such a important charactor [according to your scripts] a local scribe of the 48 known would have recorded something, and if not, why not.

I don't know what "my scripts" are, but very, very few people before, during, or shortly after Jesus' life were written about while they lived.

 

[fallingblood]

scholarship? wouldnt waist my time on there beliefs of a myth. I do admire you for knowing more then most though, reading in its natural language. Gives you a very clear sense of what they were trying to say, such as "let light be made"

Most believe there was a actual jesus type charactor but no where near historicaly accurate in any sense as the bible states.

You can read all the script you want, there are no answers there that validate authenticity 200-300 years after the fact.

show me some writting of the man himself, such a popular man should have something written down somewhere? How about a document about his life during his supposed life span? surely such a important charactor [according to your scripts] a local scribe of the 48 known would have recorded something, and if not, why not.

Prove he is a myth.

Also, the idea that such a popular man would have written something down is very naive. Especially when considering that the literacy rate at best was 10% and probably closer to around 1-3%. And how many other historical figures do we have nothing from their own hand? Simply, the argument fails on many levels. Especially since there is no reason to think of him as popular, especially in the larger scheme of things. He was a marginal Jew, in a marginal area of the empire.

Having a basic understanding of the genre in which the Gospels were written would go very far in this case. That or even looking at the information that has been presented here in a logical fashion.

 

[fallingblood]

So you haven't read any? And as for "their" beliefs, you do know that plenty aren't christian, right? Furthermore, how can you judge how accurate the scholarship is if you haven't read it? Have you read scholarship on the culture and diversity of the ancient roman empire? Can you read greek or latin or hebrew? Have you studied scholarship on religious movements in the roman empire? Or any scholarship that might be useful here?

What's the use in that? Scholarship just muddles the facts. It's easier just to call Jesus a myth and be it at that.

 

[outhouse]

good post falling

makes perfect sense.

No need for textual criticism, the authors very well may have believed in everything the wrote at the time and much has been translated pretty well. But translated they were.

Again there is no way to prove the accuracy of the original documents, many of the source books have long since been lost due to different possibilities, natural and man induced

I do have a love for history

 

[outhouse]

Prove he is a myth.

Also, the idea that such a popular man would have written something down is very naive. Especially when considering that the literacy rate at best was 10% and probably closer to around 1-3%. And how many other historical figures do we have nothing from their own hand? Simply, the argument fails on many levels. Especially since there is no reason to think of him as popular, especially in the larger scheme of things. He was a marginal Jew, in a marginal area of the empire.

Having a basic understanding of the genre in which the Gospels were written would go very far in this case. That or even looking at the information that has been presented here in a logical fashion.

this is where i disagree. at that point in history the literacy rate was higher then it had been and the civilazation had plenty of scribes. There is allot on non christian history from that period

 

[outhouse]

What's the use in that? Scholarship just muddles the facts. It's easier just to call Jesus a myth and be it at that.

Look simply put, your reading from the same book that believes

earth is 6000 years old
sun revolves around the earth
tower of babel
great flood
evolution

ill agree it is old testament but christianity is based off hellenistic judaism and even the jews dont buy that jesus was the messiah.

no credibility other then faith

 

[Oberon]

No need for textual criticism, the authors very well may have believed in everything the wrote at the time and much has been translated pretty well. But translated they were.

You do realize that we have greek texts of the NT, right> And that those of us who can read greek can read them?

Again there is no way to prove the accuracy of the original documents,

How would you know, without having read anything on textual critical methods?

[/QUOTE]I do have a love for history[/quote]

In that case I ask again: what scholarship (by experts in NT studies, classical studies, ancient history, 2nd temple judaism, etc) have you read about the historical Jesus?

 

[outhouse]

So you haven't read any? And as for "their" beliefs, you do know that plenty aren't christian, right? Furthermore, how can you judge how accurate the scholarship is if you haven't read it? Have you read scholarship on the culture and diversity of the ancient roman empire? Can you read greek or latin or hebrew? Have you studied scholarship on religious movements in the roman empire? Or any scholarship that might be useful here?




I don't know what "my scripts" are, but very, very few people before, during, or shortly after Jesus' life were written about while they lived.

ye sir I do know that many are not true christians. Im not basing my judgement on there work, Im basing it on my own.

funny thing is common sense alone beats the bible, let alone science so knowing all this "expert" knowledge you have means very little to the authenticity.

 

[Oberon]

ye ssir I do know that many are not true christians. Im not basing my judgement on there work, Im basing it on my own.

Which consists of what?

funny thing is common sense alone beats the bible, let alone science so knowing all this "expert" knowledge you have means very little to the authenticity.

This isn't about the bible. It is about individual texts (both those included in the bible and others) which refer to Jesus, and how they can or can't be used to reconstruct a historical figure. Many ancient texts have obvious flaws as far as modern conceptions of history and science are concerned. This hardly means they aren't useful for reconstructing the past.

Basically, it seems your argument amounts to "i've read the bible so who cares what those who have actually read the primary texts in the original language and who have studied this period and these issues in depth have to say?"

 

[outhouse]

You do realize that we have greek texts of the NT, right> And that those of us who can read greek can read them?


How would you know, without having read anything on textual critical methods?

I do have a love for history[/quote]

In that case I ask again: what scholarship (by experts in NT studies, classical studies, ancient history, 2nd temple judaism, etc) have you read about the historical Jesus?[/quote]

You act like one has to be a theologist to understand the bible. You dont have to get that deep to understand common sense. you can wrap your head around all you want

The bible is still fiction, by learning about old fiction or not its still fiction.

you are good at directing the conversation where you want maybe your "expertise" can explain why the majority of the bible is fiction and what makes you so sure the the new testament is not.

 

[outhouse]

Which consists of what?


This isn't about the bible. It is about individual texts (both those included in the bible and others) which refer to Jesus, and how they can or can't be used to reconstruct a historical figure. Many ancient texts have obvious flaws as far as modern conceptions of history and science are concerned. This hardly means they aren't useful for reconstructing the past.

Basically, it seems your argument amounts to "i've read the bible so who cares what those who have actually read the primary texts in the original language and who have studied this period and these issues in depth have to say?"

so what your really saying is, that the translations are so bad I cant get a grasp on the reality of jesus? without becoming a theologist.

Im sorry this is about the bible, that is where jesus magicaly manifest itself.