did jesus exist?

[fallingblood]

Paul referred to a brother of the Lord, you must be reading about a different Paul.

This has been explained to you in detail by Oberon. The fact is this, Paul is talking about a brother of Jesus. If you want to debate this, you have to provide evidence to the contrary and show that Paul was definitely speaking of someone else.

 

[fallingblood]

absolutely! they were having trouble with their HMO and they prescibed the wrong meds.

Oh i forgot jesus healed all the mentaly ill back then by laying his hand on the heads of the sick

So then it's based on nothing at all except a baseless assumption? Really, you have no case.

 

[fallingblood]

The probability of Socrates existing rather than being an invention of Plato stands or fails on the assessment of the information available, the same for a Jesus of the gospels or a Christ figure from the epistles.

This is not what we are talking about. You've conveniently ignored what I said and tried to argue something else. That simply doesn't work.

We are talking about founders, and the fact that one can not found something that is already in existence.

 

[dogsgod]

This is not what we are talking about. You've conveniently ignored what I said and tried to argue something else. That simply doesn't work.

We are talking about founders, and the fact that one can not found something that is already in existence.

In that case, we have no idea who founded Christianity, but:

Philo’s primary importance is in the development of the philosophical and theological foundations of Christianity. Philo of Alexandria [Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]

 

[outhouse]

doesnt this statement go against everything the 3 preach to us?? could never happen

He may have influenced Paul

and perhaps the authors of the Gospel of John

when we say its false and thrown out the window. now its excuses time

he laid the foundations for the development of Christianity

and i cant even say christianity was evolving without being told it was a movement. tell ya what I had a movement this morning LOL

 

[outhouse]

Philo of Alexandria (c.20 BCE—40 CE)

So why is there so much information on this charactor who lived when jesus was supposed to BUT NONE on jesus?????????????????????????????????

the bible says jesus was known through out the land and had crowds so large and followers up the wazzoooo everywhere he went LOL OH wait! its non fiction when they need it

Man what dont they know about Philo LOL

 

[fallingblood]

So why is there so much information on this charactor who lived when jesus was supposed to BUT NONE on jesus?????????????????????????????????

the bible says jesus was known through out the land and had crowds so large and followers up the wazzoooo everywhere he went LOL OH wait! its non fiction when they need it

Man what dont they know about Philo LOL

The answer is very simple. Jesus was a marginal Jew in a marginal region in the empire. He made no real impact himself that affected the elite members of the society. His ministry was among the lower classes, who were predominantly illiterate. The vast majority in fact were illiterate. His ministry was primarily in smaller villages, among the peasant classes.

He never gained a large following, he never really upset the balance of power. He did nothing really worth noting. Especially when we consider that those who did the noting that we know of were the elite of the society, who really wouldn't have cared about Jesus if they ever even got a chance to hear about him (again, Jesus preached primarily in rural area, which were primarily the peasant class).

This is the same reason why nearly no one mentions John the Baptist. It isn't surprising at all really.

 

[dogsgod]

So why is there so much information on this charactor who lived when jesus was supposed to BUT NONE on jesus?????????????????????????????????

the bible says jesus was known through out the land and had crowds so large and followers up the wazzoooo everywhere he went LOL OH wait! its non fiction when they need it

Man what dont they know about Philo LOL

Philo wrote about Pilate and the conflicts between the Jews and Roman government in Jerusalem. Philo was in Jerusalem at or about the very time of the supposed execution of this biblical Jesus, but failed to notice.

 

[dogsgod]

The answer is very simple. Jesus was a marginal Jew in a marginal region in the empire. He made no real impact himself that affected the elite members of the society. His ministry was among the lower classes, who were predominantly illiterate. The vast majority in fact were illiterate. His ministry was primarily in smaller villages, among the peasant classes.

He never gained a large following, he never really upset the balance of power. He did nothing really worth noting. Especially when we consider that those who did the noting that we know of were the elite of the society, who really wouldn't have cared about Jesus if they ever even got a chance to hear about him (again, Jesus preached primarily in rural area, which were primarily the peasant class).

This is the same reason why nearly no one mentions John the Baptist. It isn't surprising at all really.

What Jesus are you referring to? The biblical Jesus drew huge crowds where ever he went, made a victorious entrance into Jerusalem and drew the attention of the religious authorities, had a high profile trial, was executed and his body placed in a tomb owned by a man with connections and wealth.

 

[fallingblood]

doesnt this statement go against everything the 3 preach to us?? could never happen

How does this statement go against everything "the 3 preach to us?" Maybe an explanation, because I just don't see it.

when we say its false and thrown out the window. now its excuses time

So when I say maybe, or perhaps, that isn't good enough. But when an internet article, that supports your position states maybe, or perhaps, then that is all you need? Logical.

and i cant even say christianity was evolving without being told it was a movement. tell ya what I had a movement this morning LOL

Just because you lack an understanding of the basic premise, doesn't mean you should complain now. Christianity couldn't have been evolving at the beginning as it didn't exist. It started off as a Jewish movement, a sect. At that point, Christianity did not exist, thus, something that doesn't exist, can't evolve.

 

[ellenjanuary]

The answer is very simple. Jesus was a marginal Jew in a marginal region in the empire. He made no real impact himself that affected the elite members of the society. His ministry was among the lower classes, who were predominantly illiterate. The vast majority in fact were illiterate. His ministry was primarily in smaller villages, among the peasant classes.

He never gained a large following, he never really upset the balance of power. He did nothing really worth noting. Especially when we consider that those who did the noting that we know of were the elite of the society, who really wouldn't have cared about Jesus if they ever even got a chance to hear about him (again, Jesus preached primarily in rural area, which were primarily the peasant class).

This is the same reason why nearly no one mentions John the Baptist. It isn't surprising at all really.

You're missing half the equation. Can't have no "prophet" without "prophetic times," and after Herod II's unsuccessful bid to be named "messiah'" the natives being restless in Judah should have had more of an historical impact than "Josephus said" in the, what, fourth most documented century of human existance?

 

[outhouse]

Philo was in Jerusalem at or about the very time of the supposed execution of this biblical Jesus, but failed to notice.

whats funny to me, really funny

is that Philo laid the foundations for the development of Christianity and didnt know its OWN star of christianity or make mention of his episode on the cross.

 

[fallingblood]

Philo wrote about Pilate and the conflicts between the Jews and Roman government in Jerusalem. Philo was in Jerusalem at or about the very time of the supposed execution of this biblical Jesus, but failed to notice.

Does Philo write on John the Baptist? I don't think so. Did he mention the hamlet of Nazareth? I don't think so. Philo, by no stretch of the imagination recorded everything.

Maybe he failed to notice because the execution of Jesus didn't matter. He was one more Jewish peasant crucified. Philo didn't mention all the other crucifixion victims does he?

 

[fallingblood]

What Jesus are you referring to? The biblical Jesus drew huge crowds where ever he went, made a victorious entrance into Jerusalem and drew the attention of the religious authorities, had a high profile trial, was executed and his body placed in a tomb owned by a man with connections and wealth.

Oh, because unlike other historical figures, we have to either accept everything that sources state, or simply dismiss it all. It simply doesn't work that way. It is very logical to assume his followers exaggerated the success of Jesus to a point. It isn't even a stretch of the imagination. Actually, it is something that would be assumed.

 

[fallingblood]

You're missing half the equation. Can't have no "prophet" without "prophetic times," and after Herod II's unsuccessful bid to be named "messiah'" the natives being restless in Judah should have had more of an historical impact than "Josephus said" in the, what, fourth most documented century of human existance?

Herod the II wasn't trying to be the messiah. The messiah and the King of the Jews are different. Herod the Great was a King of the Jews, but definitely not the Jewish messiah.

Also, Josephus really downplayed messianic movements. We catch hints of them, but he believed the messianic prophecies were fulfilled in his Emperor. That is a very key point.


I also don't see how that was the fourth most documented century of human existence. Especially when we have very little of anything on Judaism during that time. We have very little details about many different want to be messiahs and religious leaders. We have little on Pontius Pilate, John the Baptist, or the High Priest Caiaphas. It is no surprise we have little about Jesus.

 

[dogsgod]

Does Philo write on John the Baptist? I don't think so. Did he mention the hamlet of Nazareth? I don't think so. Philo, by no stretch of the imagination recorded everything.

Maybe he failed to notice because the execution of Jesus didn't matter. He was one more Jewish peasant crucified. Philo didn't mention all the other crucifixion victims does he?

Judging by the biblical account, how could anyone miss it? You say he didn't matter, was a mere peasant which is to ignore his regal entrance into the walled city along with everything written of him. Did this very well known Jesus exist or not? You keep on about another Jesus as if you want to pawn off a nobody that absolutely no one wrote of, we're not biting on that one.

 

[fallingblood]

whats funny to me, really funny

is that Philo laid the foundations for the development of Christianity and didnt know its OWN star of christianity or make mention of his episode on the cross.

You mean you believe this because one site said it?

 

[fallingblood]

Judging by the biblical account, how could anyone miss it? You say he didn't matter, was a mere peasant which is to ignore his regal entrance into the walled city along with everything written of him. Did this very well known Jesus exist or not? You keep on about another Jesus as if you want to pawn off a nobody, we're not biting on that one.

Again, why, on this occasion, with this particular person, does everything about him that is written in the main sources have to be all 100% accurate, or 100% false? We don't do this with any other figure in history. Why the special treatment of Jesus?

And again, you have never stated a reason why some Jews would create a failed messiah that was so flawed. You've never given a logical reason for the invention of Jesus. As far as we can see then, there is no reason that anyone would invent him, and that, combined with the evidence supporting a historical Jesus, logically, one has to assume he existed.

 

[dogsgod]

You mean you believe this because one site said it?

You can read Philo's writings for yourself.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

You can read Philo's writings for yourself.

Have you read all of Philo's works?