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did jesus exist?

Oberon

Well-Known Member
The archetypal Jewish hero was joshua (the successor of Moses) otherwise known as Yeshua, ben nun (‘Jesus of the fish’). Since the name Jesus (Yeshua or Yeshu in Hebrew, Ioshu in Greek, source of the English spelling) originally was a title (meaning ‘saviour’, derived from ‘Yahweh Saves’)

It wasn't a title. Names in many cultures are words. Hence people can look up names like Philip (Philippos= horse-lover), or Timothy (honors god) and so forth.

probably every band in the Jewish resistance had its own hero figure sporting this moniker, among others.


And yet they didn't. Hmmm.


You had these as well, that the top two are BC and the rest AD. This is just a small list to show it was a common name of trouble making jesus'


Jesus ben Sirach
Jesus ben Pandira
Jesus ben Ananias
Jesus ben Saphat
Jesus ben Gamala
Jesus ben Thebuth



notice the "ben X" part of the name. Because in both the latin, greek, and jewish world the same name was shared by so many, other things (like nicknames and patronyms) were used to distinguish people. Hence, we have many people named Jesus, and only one Jesus of nazareth called christ.

we now know that Nazareth did not exist before the second century


Yes, it did. Again, see what happens when you rely on websites rather than archaeological research like

Chancey, Mark A. Myth of a Gentile Galilee : The Population of Galilee and New Testament Studies.
Port Chester, NY, USA: Cambridge University Press, 2002.

Meyers, Eric M., and James F. Strange Archaeology, the Rabbis, and Early Christianity. Nashville: Abingdon, 1981.

Freyne, Sean. Galielee from Alexander the Great to Hadrian 323 B.C.E. to 135 CE. University of Notre Dame Center for the Study of Judaism and Christianity in Antiquity 5; Wilmington, DE: University of Notre Dame, 1980.

and North, Robert. "Biblical Archaeology" in New Jerome Biblical Commentary, p. 1216

"Sepphoris’s neighbor, Nazareth, was just a small village in the first century CE, having been founded some time in the third century BCE. By one estimate, it occupied approximately sixty acres and probably had around 480 inhabitants. It is not mentioned at all prior to the Gospels, and they provide only minimal information about it. All four regard the village as the hometown of Jesus, and John suggests that it was not a notable town. According to the synoptics, Nazareth had a synagogue, which served as the setting for Jesus’s preaching and rejection by the villagers. Josephus makes no reference to it at all. Tombs from the Early and Middle Roman periods (and later) have been found around Nazareth, demarcating its ancient boundaries, as well as in the vicinity of the nearby modern city, Nazareth ’Illit. Of these, one, dating to the first or second century CE, contained an ossuary, indicating the practice of secondary burial. The tombs of Nazareth are less known among students of Early Roman Palestine than the famous Greek inscription found there, probably dating to the mid-first century CE, of an imperial decree prohibiting grave-robbing.

More famous still are Nazareth’s Christian holy sites, which have been extensively excavated. In fact, they are practically the only parts of the ancient settlement that have been excavated, due to the density of construction and population in the modern city. Significant remains from the Roman and Byzantine eras have been discovered near and under the Church of the Annunciation, the Church of St Joseph, and the site presently occupied by the Sisters of Nazareth. Various chambers, tunnels, cavities, pits, cisterns, oil presses and granaries have been found, attesting to the village’s agricultural activity.

The remains underneath the Church of the Annunciation have received the most attention by far. Particularly important are architectural fragments – capitals and column bases and moldings – which Bagatti, the primary excavator, interprets as remains of a synagogue dating from the second through the fourth century CE. Joan E. Taylor has argued, however, that “the form of the building... bears no resemblance whatsoever to a
synagogue,” pointing out that the structure was oriented toward the north, facing away from Jerusalem – an atypical orientation for a synagogue. Furthermore, fragments such as these could come from either a synagogue or a church. In short, the remains are not necessarily from a synagogue at all; even if they are, they date to a later period than the first century CE. Other especially relevant finds in Nazareth include a stepped basin, the bottom of which is decorated with a mosaic, found underneath St Joseph’s church. Bagatti interpreted this basin as a mikveh, but as Taylor has pointed out, the decoration of a mikveh with a mosaic is extremely unusual. In any case, the basin dates to the Late Roman or Byzantine period. Bagatti also refers to fragments of large (26 cm diameter), vase-like stone vessels, of uncertain date, and two stone feet, one marble and one of stone, also of uncertain date, found in a cistern beneath the Church of the Annunciation. Bagatti suggests that Crusaders may have deposited the votive feet in the church at some point. Given uncertainty regarding their place and date of origin, we cannot consider them evidence of paganism in first-century CE Nazareth. "

Chancey, Mark A. Myth of a Gentile Galilee : The Population of Galilee and New Testament Studies.
Port Chester, NY, USA: Cambridge University Press, 2002. pp. 83-85.

when your doing history based on a religion ALL factors need to be taken into account its highly fiction, not just a little here and there.

When you are addressing the historical work that has been done, having at least a passing familiarity might help.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
And yet they didn't. Hmmm.

you mean not discovered yet

since you use the NT and related docs the most for that period im sure there would be no competition mentioned

would be great if the originals were not burned by the church on purpose. The history we could have pulled would have every answer solved by now
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
you mean not discovered yet

since you use the NT and related docs the most for that period im sure there would be no competition mentioned

Actually there is a fair amount of competition mentioned in works like those of Josephus

Now biblical needs to be read and is dated earlier if one can trust the text.

Once again, research into Nazareth, like the scholarly sources I cited (rather than wiki or some sensationalist website) use archaeology not just texts. In fact, archeology is one of those tools used frequently in biblical scholarship in all sorts of ways. See e.g.
Gibson, Shimon. Cave of John the Baptist : The First Archaeological Evidence of the Historical Reality of the Gospel Story. London: Doubleday Publishing, 2005.

which uses archeology to examine the historical reality of John the Baptist (who of course is also known through Josephus).
 

logician

Well-Known Member
Heck, we can do more than demonstrate Jesus' existence, but we can tell you what foods he ate, the languages he spoke, the quality of his education, the complexities of the interrelationships between Jew and Empire.... and on and on


Really, do so, with real historical examples, not extrapolated(made up) ones.

I won't hold my breath.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
This isn't assumed, and often even in recent works the issue will be addressed. Theissen and Merz textbook Der historische Jesu has a nice summary on historicity and evaluation of sources for why we should take Jesus as historical and how much more we can know. And often enough those sources that don't spend much time on it will still address the point in some way: "Such references [rabbinic, josephus, tacitus, seutonius] are important if only because about once every generation someon reruns the thesis that Jesus never existed and that the Jesus tradition is a wholesale invention. But they provide very little hard information..." Jesus Remembered


What Jesus are you talking about? Certainly not the biblical one.:shrug:





The thing is, assessing the information includes assessing two centuries worth of scholarship. And the mythicist hypothesis has been run into the ground enough.

What Jesus are you talking about? Certainly not the biblical one.:shrug:
 

logician

Well-Known Member
I got about this far in the article before realizing the author simply has no clue:

"Some of these tools are quite sophisticated. One is cross-cultural studies, particularly in sociology and anthropology. These can include studies in epic story telling among certain peoples in the Balkans and parts of Africa. Another is economic modeling, including studies of peasant unrest and class tensions, and shifting socio-economic stresses with new urban developments, and geographical studies. There are also a host of psychological and medical studies into everything from the nature of memory to the various genetic mutations of the plague. And statistics. Always hosts of statistics of raw data....
Historical Jesus historians use the same tools, but the problem is they don’t have any on-the-field known facts to start with. They have lots of stories and treatises (a real mix of church rules, fiction, theology, myth, real names and places) but the problem is to sift through that data to find out what is really a fact of history and what is not. So instead of using those historical tools to analyse facts (they don’t know what the facts of Jesus’ life are yet) they mis-use those tools by applying them to unsubstantiated story narratives thinking that by doing so the conceptual tools will somehow perform more like the archaeologist’s trowel and dig up some historical facts.
"

Jesus research uses sociology, statistics, psychological research, archaelogy, anthropology, and much, much more, with often excellent results. For example, Baukham recently incorporated psychological research on memory in his investigation of the transmission of the Jesus tradition (as well as a statistical analysis of names from using Lexicon of Jewish Names in Late Antiquity as a data set). Examinations on the nature of religious movements (how they compare with other religious groups, how they grow, are formed, etc) are all over Jesus research. Literary studies abound, and I have cited several on this thread.

Again, you would be much better served reading information on the field by people who have some idea of what they are talking about.

Again, your post is an insult, that everyone on the other side is an uninformed jerk. Not really a great debating style.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
That's the key.

I've said over and over again that the entire point of the effort to study / reconstruct a historical Jesus is to separate the "historical Jesus" from the "theological/mythical Jesus."

So scholars must create tools to weed out the historical Jesus from the mythological one.... or more precisely, identify the myths, remove them from our understanding of an historical Jesus, and then see what we have left. About 150 years ago, or perhaps earlier, the interest in a historical Jesus lead scholars to identify and remove these myths. For current scholars, that's done already, so we're taking what's left and applying every thing we can know about the ancient world to sharpen the image(s) of historical Jesus(s).

So logically, these historical Jesus(s) have nothing to do with a biblical Jesus.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Again, your post is an insult, that everyone on the other side is an uninformed jerk. Not really a great debating style.

I never said anything about being a jerk. But the article is just patently incorrect. And using it not knowing that is something one does from ignorance. You (and others) are so convinced of your position not having done the research. How is that not being uninformed?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
No, there's still a connection because the NT is still the primary source.

there in lies the problem

religion = myth

your myth is your primary source, second hand material is fine in most cases but after ten years of story telling with a religion in its infancy and growing, you can be certain the religion evolved during that period to some extent ALL DEATAILS can be thrown out the window.

Now you take your christian bias scholarships and your doing what christians have always done the best. TURNING MYTH INTO REALITY

I cannot prove you wrong, you cannot prove me wrong

STALEMATE
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
there in lies the problem

religion = myth

No, it doesn't. The two words are semantically differentiable. More importantly, plenty of people who started religious movements or religions are historical.

your myth is your primary source

Once again, history, particularly ancient history, is often rife with myth. This doesn't make it void of historical fact.

Now you take your christian bias scholarships and your doing what christians have always done the best.
There are a great many non-christians working in ancient history who have contributed to the historical Jesus debate. You might want to check out bart ehrman, as in addition to being agnostic, he has a number of books written for the non-expert.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
plenty of people who started religious movements or religions are historical.

and everything they state is a myth

Once again, history, particularly ancient history, is often rife with myth. This doesn't make it void of historical fact.

understood but the facts are few and far between if any, then and only then if not taken literally can they be assessest for interpetation.

[QUOTEThere are a great many non-christians working in ancient history][/QUOTE]

call it what it is a huge minority, i never said it was completely biases and I know a few that have came into it to prove there beliefs that there was not a historical jesus and came out believing. This doesnt change the fact that most in the field are devote christians. many names youve dropped have been devote followers.

its no mystery your stance is pro scholar and in that literal sense historical jesus would be easy to believe in

as it stands there is little that can be said about historical jesus allthough teh majority of scholars agree. This does not make it so. Its a debate that will go on. most of your counter points are biased and only a small portion of what I have posted is not true in your eyes. the rest is still in the ball game and your not the definitive answer on this.

its still a stalemate until its said so by mainstream historians
 

outhouse

Atheistically
we can agree that there is possibly a ten to 15 years that jesus storys were passed down orally

Our attitudes about precision are themselves a byproduct of a written culture. Moreover, studies of oral cultures have shown that storytellers change detail and presentation to accommodate different audiences, and in this case with religion in a evolutionary state the material has the possibility for unlimted change.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
There is a specific Jesus of Nazareth, born in 1st century roman palestine, who gathered together many followers including twelve central disciples, taught, and ended up being exectuted for his actions. A generation or so later, some of his followers' followers decided that, rather than continue to use only orality as a medium for transmitting his stories and teachings, they would commit parts of it to writing.
Holy s*** Sherlock. A moron such as myself could figure that much out if all is assumed to be true just as it is presented to us. Sunday school anyone?
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
Reading the epistles without any preconceived notions coming from the gospel story which came about later, we don't read of a Jesus of Nazareth, of Pilate, Mary, his trial, his miracles, teachings, and so on. According to Paul, apostles were self appointed, and we get no indication from reading the epistles themselves that Peter, James, or John met a man named Jesus.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
understood but the facts are few and far between if any

How would you know? I mean, you've argued that you understand enough background to evaluate what is or isn't fact without any research in this field. Then you proved that statement incorrect. For example, you posted a list of information about other cults which was inaccurate, but apparently you didn't know this, nor are you still able to tell what is and isn't correct (or misleading) about your list. Most recently you copied another website's statement that Nazareth didn't exist. This too is baseless, but you didn't know that because you lack background knowledge. Yet somehow you still cling to the view that you are capable of accurately evalutating our sources.

call it what it is a huge minority

I won't, because I don't have any basis for saying that. And neither do you.

its still a stalemate until its said so by mainstream historians

Mainstream historians have already written in this area. Many. The scholarship on historical Jesus isn't just limited to NT scholars.

For example, take dogsgod's little assertion:
Reading the epistles without any preconceived notions coming from the gospel story which came about later, we don't read of a Jesus of Nazareth, of Pilate, Mary, his trial, his miracles, teachings, and so on. According to Paul, apostles were self appointed, and we get no indication from reading the epistles themselves that Peter, James, or John met a man named Jesus.

While it is quite obvious that
1) Paul wasn't writing a gospel
2) Paul does mention Jesus' teaching on divorce
3) He does mention things from the gospels like the last supper
4) There is plenty to indicate that the followers were not all self-appointed
5) Paul does mention meeting Jesus' brother

and so on, what is more important here is to look at one of the many works of scholarship specifically devoted to Paul:

Akenson, Donald Harman. Saint Saul : A Skeleton Key to the Historical Jesus.
Montreal: McGill-Queen's University Press, 2000.


Akenson is not a biblical scholar or NT scholar, but one among many historians who have contributed scholarly works to the field of historical Jesus research.

In other words, asserting that the field somehow lacks contributions by "mainstream historians" is only indicative of a lack of knowledge of the field.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
How would you know? I mean, you've argued that you understand enough background to evaluate what is or isn't fact without any research in this field. Then you proved that statement incorrect. For example, you posted a list of information about other cults which was inaccurate, but apparently you didn't know this, nor are you still able to tell what is and isn't correct (or misleading) about your list. Most recently you copied another website's statement that Nazareth didn't exist. This too is baseless, but you didn't know that because you lack background knowledge. Yet somehow you still cling to the view that you are capable of accurately evalutating our sources.



I won't, because I don't have any basis for saying that. And neither do you.



Mainstream historians have already written in this area. Many. The scholarship on historical Jesus isn't just limited to NT scholars.

For example, take dogsgod's little assertion:


While it is quite obvious that
1) Paul wasn't writing a gospel
2) Paul does mention Jesus' teaching on divorce
3) He does mention things from the gospels like the last supper
4) There is plenty to indicate that the followers were not all self-appointed
5) Paul does mention meeting Jesus' brother

and so on, what is more important here is to look at one of the many works of scholarship specifically devoted to Paul:

Akenson, Donald Harman. Saint Saul : A Skeleton Key to the Historical Jesus.
Montreal: McGill-Queen's University Press, 2000.


Akenson is not a biblical scholar or NT scholar, but one among many historians who have contributed scholarly works to the field of historical Jesus research.

In other words, asserting that the field somehow lacks contributions by "mainstream historians" is only indicative of a lack of knowledge of the field.
1. Correct, Paul was not writing a gospel.
2. Commenting on divorce does not make one a teacher.
3. The gospels write of a Last Super, borrowing from Paul's Lord's Super and incorporating it into a narrative.
4.Wrong, Paul explains that his and Peter' apostleship was appointed by God. Galatians 2-8 Nothing indicates otherwise.
5. Paul mentions a Lord's brother, nothing he says nor any epistle writer gives us the impression that James is a literal brother, or that anyone met an actual Jesus. Nothing connects the epistles with Galilee. The gospel narrate is a later development, borrowing elements from Paul's writings.
 
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dogsgod

Well-Known Member
Nazareth was unheard of prior to gMark. The location and name of present day Nazareth was determined centuries later. Holy grail seekers claim otherwise.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
2. Commenting on divorce does not make one a teacher.

The point is that Paul specifically cites and instruction of Jesus.
For teachings on divorce (which correspond to Q in Matt 19:6,9/Lk 16:18): 1 Cor. 7:10 tois gegamekosin paraggello, ouk alla ho kurios/ to those having been married I command, not I but the Lord...

contrasted with 1 Cor. 7:12 tois de loipois lego ego ouch ho kurios/ to the rest I say, I not the Lord...
He also states distinguishes his teachings from Jesus again in 1 Cor. 7:25- peri de ton parthenon epitagen kyriou ouk echo/ concerning the unmarried/maidens i have no command from the Lord.

What is important is not only that Paul is citing Jesus' instruction, but that he makes clear to differentiate what Jesus taught from what he (Paul) is teaching. If Jesus were entirely a matter of mere revelation for Paul, there would be no reason to do this.


3. The gospels mention a Last Super, borrowing from Paul's Lord's Super and incorporating it into a narrative.

Talk about starting with incorrect assumptions. Both the gospels and Paul mention a last supper. This could be because 1) one is dependent on the other or 2) both independently refer to a historical event or 3) both independently refer to an event thought to be historical by the early christians. What evidence suggests literary dependence, i.e. that the gospel authors were familiar with Paul's letters? Luke, who clearly a part of and knowledgable about the early christian church, and was occasionally around for the events s/he describes in acts, still was not aware of Paul's letters. We can see this clearly by the divergence between Acts and the epistles and a lack of awareness of Paul's version of events in Acts. In fact, the substantial stylistic, lexical, and grammatical diversion of material common the gospels and Paul make any speculation of dependence baseless.

4.Wrong, Paul explains that his and Peter' apostleship was appointed by God. Galatians 2-8 Nothing indicates otherwise.
“These are two separate assertions: (a) that Saul did not know much and (b) that he did not care much and they are independent of each other. I wish to concentrate here on “a,” the view that Saul had an empty head as far as the historical Yeshua was concerned. It is preposterous.

Recall what we already know from the chronology of Saul’s religious career. He was a persecutor of the Yeshua-faith. Whatever else that may have entailed, he certainly was in position to learn a lot about Yeshua. How he assimilated that information is another matter, but recall that three years after his conversion he secretly went up to Jerusalem and spent fifteen days living with Peter (Cephas) and, also, he met Yacov (Galatians 1:18– 19). Now, in more than a fortnight of intensive discussion with Peter he must have been tutored in all the basic actions and sayings of Yeshua as Peter knew them. Further, Saul obviously was being examined not only on his own character, but on his knowledge and ideology. The one-time audience with Yacov, direct heir to the headship of the Yeshua-faith, has the appearance of a viva voce examination of a doctoral candidate by a stern External Examiner. Saul passes, manifestly: he knows his Yeshua and his interpretations are within the acceptable boundaries of the plasticities of the time.

And recall that fourteen years later, Saul went up again to Jerusalem and this time went through a complex negotiation with the Jerusalem believers, headed by Yacov, Peter and John, the son of Zebedee. Whatever else occurred there, each side clearly expressed its knowledge and interpretation of the life of Yeshua of Nazareth and, again, Saul’s work received the imprimatur (Gal 2:1– 9). Saul may not have enjoyed his relations with Jerusalem, but he certainly was informed about the life of Yeshua.

Further, he continued to have interactions – sometimes unpleasant ones – with representatives of the Jerusalem church and probably with other Yeshua groups from outside of Jerusalem (Philippians, Galatians, Second Corinthians, all stem from such occurrences). He knew not just the life story of Yeshua, but was directly acquainted with at least one, and probably all, of the brothers of Yeshua. His third visit to Jerusalem, which resulted in his imprisonment, certainly gave him a chance to become closely reacquainted with the Jerusalem church. And Saul was knowledgeable about (and mostly horrified by) other traditions of the Yeshua-faith, especially those that were strongly spiritualist (see Second Corinthians). Each version of the faith of course implied not only a different complex of immediate religious experiences on the part of the specific community of believers, but also variant traditions of what characterized Yeshua while still on earth. Thus, Saul, being as knowledgeable as anyone among the Yeshua-followers about the varieties of the faith, was inevitably highly knowledgeable of the traditions concerning the historical Yeshua.

These inferences derive from direct evidence in the epistles of Saul. They should not even slightly surprise us, given our background knowledge of late Second Temple Judaism. For the religiously alert – and the Yeshua followers were nothing if not hyperattentive – the world was one great spider web, the hub of which was Jerusalem, and any motion any place on the web was transmitted through the entire reactive lattice. Even if we had not the compelling evidence of Saul’s ties to the centre, we still would assume he was picking up, almost tactilely, every variant of Yeshua’s life story and the vibratory signals of each significant variation of interpretation. Saul himself was constantly sending and receiving letters, detailing messengers and instructing emissaries; communication was his business. So, Saul knew his Yeshua.”

Akenson, Donald Harman. Saint Saul : A Skeleton Key to the Historical Jesus.
Montreal: McGill-Queen's University Press, 2000. pp. 171-173.


5. Paul mentions a Lord's brother, nothing he says nor any apostle writer gives us the impression that James is a literal brother, or that anyone met an actual Jesus.

Sure it does. Paul uses of the genitive in a particular grammatical/syntactical way to indicate kinship. See e.g. Schweizer's section on der persönliche Genitiv der Abstammung in his Griechesche Grammatik or "The genitive of origin and relationship" in A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature.

Nazareth was unheard of prior to gMark.
You love classical fallacies. Do you know what argumentum ex silentio means?
 
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