did jesus exist?

[outhouse]

Yes it was a massive conspiracy. A bunch of Jews got together and wanted power so they created a movement which made them persecuted minorities by both Jews AND romans...

the fiction part of the gospel was made up, but some how its a conspiracy if they made up different areas you think are valid history

 

[dogsgod]

Why would anyone write a gospel like that if it wasn't true?

 

[outhouse]

Why would anyone write a gospel like that if it wasn't true?

I believe by reading and interpeting and taking the material with THERE methodology there blinded to the whole picture. I can see where it makes sense for them. On a stretch they have a historical jesus if we cut every gray area there way.

to them there is no gray area


Theres two sides to every coin, there side our side and somewhere in the middle is a thin line know as the truth

 

[dogsgod]

There's a lot of sides to this story. Anecdotes, oral tradition, allusions to ancient scripture, there's a lot going on.

 

[outhouse]

There's a lot of sides to this story. Anecdotes, oral tradition, allusions to ancient scripture, there's a lot going on.

yes there is, when you assume you know where to draw the line of fiction and pull nonfiction out mistakes can be made without knowing it.

we owe allot to scholars that they can pull any information at all out of the fictional and nonfictional text they work with. doesnt mean there right or %100 accurate either.

 

[Oberon]

I believe by reading and interpeting and taking the material with THERE methodology there blinded to the whole picture.

You mean historical methods? Because scholars interested in the historical Jesus use historical methods. I find it interesting that you make judgments on the methods of scholars whose work you haven't read...almost as interesting as contrasting your methodology, which appears to be to find bad information on the internet, with actual research, and acting like these are both valid methods of obtaining an accurate understanding of the issues.

there side our side

So let's get this straight. The "there side" you refer to is the side of historians, classicists, NT scholars, biblical scholars, and in general all those with some historical expertise in the ancient mediterranean world. Then there is the "our side" (your side) you refer to... which consists almost entirely of amateurs who haven't done enough research and simply regurgitate inaccurate information about ancient cults, graeco-roman history, and so on. But these I'm sure are equal sides...

 

[Oberon]

when you assume you know where to draw the line of fiction and pull nonfiction out mistakes can be made without knowing it.

How about when you aren't familiar with what ancient genres (including history and myth look like) and you make assumptions based on your knowledge of modern literature? Because that's what you are doing and it appears that it is a far worse approach and far more prone to error than the approach of experts, which is to thoroughly analyze ancient texts in their original languages and then compare the gospels to these to determine how best to fit them into their literary background. Do you really think that these academic works, which you haven't read, are "assumptions" but your approach (make judgments without research) is somehow based on something other than baseless assumptions?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I believe by reading and interpeting and taking the material with THERE methodology there blinded to the whole picture. I can see where it makes sense for them. On a stretch they have a historical jesus if we cut every gray area there way.

to them there is no gray area


Theres two sides to every coin, there side our side and somewhere in the middle is a thin line know as the truth

I have no idea who you're talking about here.

 

[Oberon]

I have no idea who you're talking about here.

We blinded folk who think that the gospels are completely accurate. Because obviously you and I agree on everything concerning things like the historical Jesus and the gospel genre, which proves we are missing the gray areas...

 

[angellous_evangellous]

We blinded folk who think that the gospels are completely accurate. Because obviously you and I agree on everything concerning things like the historical Jesus and the gospel genre, which proves we are missing the gray areas...

haha

It seems to me that if there were no gray area that there would be much less scholarship produced on the subject.

The "gray area" will keep that cottage industry going for the forseeable future.

 

[ellenjanuary]

No. Even if that Josephus cat could be trusted, he would still just be one source - and one cannot collabarate itself. Besides, I'm fully convinced that the quantum whack that makes the future such a mess effects the past as well - there ain't no going back, so there ain't no knowing. It may be possible to travel through time with a "cloak of many colors" - by wrapping oneself entirely in that self's complete local information - and go non-local with it, but the numbers are insane, and a rounding error would separate self from universe... yikes. So. A whole bunch of no.

And a Jesus that never existed can always exist everywhere.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I agree that it isn't surprising. The key for me though is that that splinter religion must have had a catalyst.

But catalyst does not (necessarily) imply a historical person at it's core. There were plenty of mythic god/men religions already in full swing centuries before and up to the time of the supposed Yeshua. Some, not all, matching the characteristics of Yeshua. Striking out any fantastical claims the bible makes about Yeshua we're not left with much about him. We can also look at the supposed actions of the Romans around him and his trial. The claims the bible makes appears not to match "historical" events.

 

[logician]

But catalyst does not (necessarily) imply a historical person at it's core. There were plenty of mythic god/men religions already in full swing centuries before and up to the time of the supposed Yeshua. Some, not all, matching the characteristics of Yeshua. Striking out any fantastical claims the bible makes about Yeshua we're not left with much about him. We can also look at the supposed actions of the Romans around him and his trial. The claims the bible makes appears not to match "historical" events.

You're quite correct, insisting that a supposed Jesus was an "original" personality is ridiculous given the plethora of existing religions and philosophies that were preexistent to the first cetury. The gospels, which themselves conflict with each other greatly, are simply continuations of this mythology that were picked up by the cults of the latter first century and after, each competeing for a piece of the pie - believers. Assuming that a "historical" person of no importance to history writers of the day was behind these stories really is irrelevant, as he was not preaching any "new" philosophy. The golden rule had already been arond a 1000 years.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

cults of the latter first century and after, each competeing for a piece of the pie - believers.

Really? That's how you imagine the ancient world?

Do you seriously think that cults were competing for believers?

 

[waitasec]

Really? That's how you imagine the ancient world?

Do you seriously think that cults were competing for believers?

2 thess 3:1 "As for other matters, brothers and sisters, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you."

why the hurry...?

my guess the competition was to "save" as many as they could because they assumed the 2nd coming would occur within their lifetime

 

[fallingblood]

2 thess 3:1 "As for other matters, brothers and sisters, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you."

why the hurry...?

Because Paul believed that the end was soon, as he states various times in his writing. Context is a great tool.

 

[waitasec]

Because Paul believed that the end was soon, as he states various times in his writing. Context is a great tool.

you caught me in the middle of my edit...

 

[fallingblood]

I believe by reading and interpeting and taking the material with THERE methodology there blinded to the whole picture. I can see where it makes sense for them. On a stretch they have a historical jesus if we cut every gray area there way.

to them there is no gray area


Theres two sides to every coin, there side our side and somewhere in the middle is a thin line know as the truth

And here is where you prove that you haven't done any research on the subject, and that you are simply ignoring what is being stated here. No gray area? Come on.

 

[logician]

Really? That's how you imagine the ancient world?

Do you seriously think that cults were competing for believers?

Do you seriously think they weren't?

 

[logician]

And here is where you prove that you haven't done any research on the subject, and that you are simply ignoring what is being stated here. No gray area? Come on.

Ok, oh wise one, define the gray area.