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Did Jesus LIE, or is the Bible in error?

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
And Baha'i makes the cut? Really? And, others do make the cut.

It is specifically the belief of the Roman Church that Salvation only as defined through the church. In the Roman Church no one is condemned, because any mortal can be converted up to the moment of death and be saved. Also in the concept of Universal Salvation in the Roman Church the sincere ones who have no knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Roman Church may be saved, and children below the age of consent, or age of confirmation about13 to 14.

That is not the belief of the Baha'i Faith.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Evidence of God

Did you choose what you’re wearing today? {Or did you dress yourself this morning?}

If you did I can show evidence of God to you.

The Bible has existed for nearly 2,000 years, and we believe it to be the Inspired WORD of God.

In its 1st book:

Genesis, 1: 26 & 27 we are taught that we are made in the image & likeness of God.

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them


Then is the Gospel {Meaning the “GOOD News”} of John 4: 23-24, tells us that {our} God is:

“But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

That God is a “Spiritual Reality”

Q: So if God is a Spirit and man is made in His Image; how can that be? “Man” is human

[1] In all of the Universes BILLIONS of stars, galaxies and planets, only ONE can be proven to be able to support ALL of the Life-Forms that we are aware of. Planet Earth

[2] On Planet Earth with its hundreds of MILLIONS of different living things; only ONE, only Man can choose to love or hate, only Man, can rationalize.

[3] In order for Man to be able to love, hate & rationalize require in an absolute sense:

A mind {not meaning our brain}

A Intellect {not meaning “I.Q.} &

A Freewill

[4] Each of these attributes, are like God: Spiritual realities & immortal. Meaning that they can’t be killed & don’t die.

[5] If you’re doubtful? Define for me your “FREEWILL” What is its size, weight, color & shape?

It can’t be done but only a foolish person would assert that it does not exist.

[6] Science tells us that like things originate from other “like-things.”

[7] So these “Spiritual Realities” have to have a source, other than our parents, who transmit our physical attributes; but cannot transmit “spiritual {invisible} things”.

[8} further evidence of a Power, a Source greater than man is evidenced in the Natural Laws: Motion, gravity for example. Then there are the Sun & the Moon both which paly essential roles in sustaining Earths life forms. With many BILLIONS of stars and planets the odds that they exist in the forms NECESSARY to sustain life, and then BE in OUR Galaxy is many BILLIUONS to One. {Impossible!} By luck or coincidence.

[8] Then add to this the Moral Laws: Good and evil too have to have a source, an origin. Because this Power, this Source that WE CHOOSE to identify as our God is Good, we can know that Goodness {LOVE} comes from God; while hate exist permitted by God, so man can freely choose good or evil.

[9] Enter into a discussion of WHY man is given these attributes: LIFE After physical death discussion


St. Thomas Aquinas:
The Existence of God can be proved in five ways.


Argument Analysis of the Five Ways

The above is too large to cut & paste, but can also be used.

God Bless,

PJM

St. Thomas Aquinas:
The Existence of God can be proved in five ways.


Argument Analysis of the Five Ways © 2016 Theodore Gracyk

The First Way: Argument from Motion
  1. Our senses prove that some things are in motion.
  2. Things move when potential motion becomes actual motion.
  3. Only an actual motion can convert a potential motion into an actual motion.
  4. Nothing can be at once in both actuality and potentiality in the same respect (i.e., if both actual and potential, it is actual in one respect and potential in another).
  5. Therefore nothing can move itself.
  6. Therefore each thing in motion is moved by something else.
  7. The sequence of motion cannot extend ad infinitum.
  8. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.
The Second Way: Argument from Efficient Causes
  1. We perceive a series of efficient causes of things in the world.
  2. Nothing exists prior to itself.
  3. Therefore nothing [in the world of things we perceive] is the efficient cause of itself.
  4. If a previous efficient cause does not exist, neither does the thing that results (the effect).
  5. Therefore if the first thing in a series does not exist, nothing in the series exists.
  6. If the series of efficient causes extends ad infinitum into the past, for then there would be no things existing now.
  7. That is plainly false (i.e., there are things existing now that came about through efficient causes).
  8. Therefore efficient causes do not extend ad infinitum into the past.
  9. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.
The Third Way: Argument from Possibility and Necessity (Reductio argument)
  1. We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, that come into being and go out of being i.e., contingent beings.
  2. Assume that every being is a contingent being.
  3. For each contingent being, there is a time it does not exist.
  4. Therefore it is impossible for these always to exist.
  5. Therefore there could have been a time when no things existed.
  6. Therefore at that time there would have been nothing to bring the currently existing contingent beings into existence.
  7. Therefore, nothing would be in existence now.
  8. We have reached an absurd result from assuming that every being is a contingent being.
  9. Therefore not every being is a contingent being.
  10. Therefore some being exists of its own necessity, and does not receive its existence from another being, but rather causes them. This all men speak of as God.
The Fourth Way: Argument from Gradation of Being
  1. There is a gradation to be found in things: some are better or worse than others.
  2. Predications of degree require reference to the “uttermost” case (e.g., a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest).
  3. The maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus.
  4. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.
The Fifth Way: Argument from Design
  1. We see that natural bodies work toward some goal, and do not do so by chance.
  2. Most natural things lack knowledge.
  3. But as an arrow reaches its target because it is directed by an archer, what lacks intelligence achieves goals by being directed by something intelligence.
  4. Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God.
Friend a BIG part of finding God {the entire Universe exist so that YOU can, could and should}, is YOU permitting God to "find you."

May God guide our life paths,
Patrcik

Cite an outside source that is not religious and does not restate any religious text.
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
It could be that your interpretation of the Bible is as innacurate as some muslims interpretation of the Koran is.

Peace be always upon you
I don't interpret. I seek spiritual knowledge. The Bible was scribed hundreds of times over many, many centuries. Christ told us not the trust the scribes or the Pharisee's. Today we have a book the scribes made for the Pharisee's.

It's not hard to see when you remove the veil as Christ did from the "holy of hollies". The Spirit teaches Not men.
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
What had this to do with your claim that Muslims consider Jesus to be a liar?
Much more complex than stating it as lie.

In Islam, Jesus is believed to have been the precursor to Muhammad, attributing the name Ahmad to someone who would follow him. Islam rejects the divinity of Jesus and teaches that Jesus was not God incarnate, nor the Son of God, and—according to some interpretations of the Quran—the crucifixion, death and resurrection is not believed to have occurred, and rather that God saved him.= WIKI

To teach that Christ (not Jesus) is not the son of God is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (which makes you son of God) an unforgivable sin.

The Quran calls Jesus the son of Mary. Yes he was. When the Holy Spirit (Mother who conceived him spiritually) came to him at the Chrism (baptism) it's her voice that says "this is my son". Especially since Christ said we have never heard the Fathers voice nor seen his shape.

The Demiurge is strong and has misled many. You cannot know God if you don't know who he is. Paul was the one who received the Spirit, the same Spirit that made Jesus a Christ and gave us the gnosis to understand the mystery and hidden knowledge.

So when you discard this teaching, is it because it is a lie? Only the spiritual seeker of truth can say. Words are deceiving.

I see the fruits of the physical ideology and the spiritual ideology. There is no male and female. There is no black and white. There is no Jew or Greek. It's all physical, and dies and withers away. Only the spirit is infinite, the spirit saves the soul to become infinite. The flesh is useless.
 

Patrick Miron

Patrick4Jesus
It is specifically the belief of the Roman Church that Salvation only as defined through the church. In the Roman Church no one is condemned, because any mortal can be converted up to the moment of death and be saved. Also in the concept of Universal Salvation in the Roman Church the sincere ones who have no knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Roman Church may be saved, and children below the age of consent, or age of confirmation about13 to 14.

That is not the belief of the Baha'i Faith.

As stated my friend this is an incorrect understanding {not at all uncommon these days IMO}

It is my and the opinion of the RCC that "all salvation Flows through Her" Catholic Catechism #169, #183, #621, #1257 & # 1359 for the following reasons:

Websters definition of truth: "conforming to fact or reality" ... Hence religious truths can only be singular per defined issue.

Jesus did precisely as He intended; He established what the Bible itself enumerates:
One God {the 1st Commandment}
One Faith Eph. 4:5
One True Church Mt. 16:18

Prior to the 19th Century Reformation; there were only two "Christian "Faiths"; Catholicism 1st being the Church & Faith of the Bible which was fully authored by the end of the 1st century; then in 1054 the Great Eastern Schism, created the Orthodox-Christian faith and churches.

So all salvation continued and continues to FLOW through the CC as it is the One established by Jesus Himself Mt 16:18; 16:19; John 17:17-20; Mt 28:18-20 and Eph. 4:1-7

Mortal sin DOES self-condemed 1 John 5:16-17; not "converted" but actually forgiven John 20"19-23

I believe that anyone who dies with unconfessed /unforgiven Mortal sin is self-condemned to hell. ... There is the possibility of a "last Moment" Perfect Act of Contrition which if Perfect {love of God; NOT fear of hell} can remit even Mortal sins. Catechism $1452

There is to my knowledge no "blanket teaching" that "all Catholics are saved." The reality is many are not.

Salvation of those with no knowledge of Christ OR His Church; Catechism #'s 1260, 846, 847, and 848 pertains to ALL who are not Catholics, conditionally based on the culpability of their lack of knowledge.

And lastly; I believe it the age of "reason" around 7 years old; not as you suggest the age of sacramental Confirmation which you have correctly. Catechism #s 1244 & 1457

God Bless you
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
Much more complex than stating it as lie.

In Islam, Jesus is believed to have been the precursor to Muhammad, attributing the name Ahmad to someone who would follow him. Islam rejects the divinity of Jesus and teaches that Jesus was not God incarnate, nor the Son of God, and—according to some interpretations of the Quran—the crucifixion, death and resurrection is not believed to have occurred, and rather that God saved him.= WIKI

To teach that Christ (not Jesus) is not the son of God is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (which makes you son of God) an unforgivable sin.

The Quran calls Jesus the son of Mary. Yes he was. When the Holy Spirit (Mother who conceived him spiritually) came to him at the Chrism (baptism) it's her voice that says "this is my son". Especially since Christ said we have never heard the Fathers voice nor seen his shape.

The Demiurge is strong and has misled many. You cannot know God if you don't know who he is. Paul was the one who received the Spirit, the same Spirit that made Jesus a Christ and gave us the gnosis to understand the mystery and hidden knowledge.

So when you discard this teaching, is it because it is a lie? Only the spiritual seeker of truth can say. Words are deceiving.

I see the fruits of the physical ideology and the spiritual ideology. There is no male and female. There is no black and white. There is no Jew or Greek. It's all physical, and dies and withers away. Only the spirit is infinite, the spirit saves the soul to become infinite. The flesh is useless.

Yes, Islam discards this teaching (I was a Christian for over sixty years, and know full well what this teaching is); but it is not Jesus who lied. Your notion that Islam believes him to have been a liar is false. That really is all that needs to be said.
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
This could be a very painful issue for christians. Are the words of the historical Jeshua truthfully recorded in the New Testament or did the authors of the gospels distort his teachings and dilute them with their own teachings?

I personally think that most of it is corrupted and only a reconstruction of the sayings in Q (Q-lite) can reveal the true historical words of Jeshua the Nazarene.
But even then you need specialised knowledge or explanations of an expert to fathom what is really being said in those deliberately obscure sayings.

So yes, the New Testament is in error if you want to get to know the real Jeshua instead of the christian version of him (whom they call Jesus).
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
As stated my friend this is an incorrect understanding {not at all uncommon these days IMO}

It is my and the opinion of the RCC that "all salvation Flows through Her" Catholic Catechism #169, #183, #621, #1257 & # 1359 for the following reasons:

Websters definition of truth: "conforming to fact or reality" ... Hence religious truths can only be singular per defined issue.

Jesus did precisely as He intended; He established what the Bible itself enumerates:
One God {the 1st Commandment}
One Faith Eph. 4:5
One True Church Mt. 16:18

Prior to the 19th Century Reformation; there were only two "Christian "Faiths"; Catholicism 1st being the Church & Faith of the Bible which was fully authored by the end of the 1st century; then in 1054 the Great Eastern Schism, created the Orthodox-Christian faith and churches.

So all salvation continued and continues to FLOW through the CC as it is the One established by Jesus Himself Mt 16:18; 16:19; John 17:17-20; Mt 28:18-20 and Eph. 4:1-7

Mortal sin DOES self-condemed 1 John 5:16-17; not "converted" but actually forgiven John 20"19-23

I believe that anyone who dies with unconfessed /unforgiven Mortal sin is self-condemned to hell. ... There is the possibility of a "last Moment" Perfect Act of Contrition which if Perfect {love of God; NOT fear of hell} can remit even Mortal sins. Catechism $1452

There is to my knowledge no "blanket teaching" that "all Catholics are saved." The reality is many are not.

Salvation of those with no knowledge of Christ OR His Church; Catechism #'s 1260, 846, 847, and 848 pertains to ALL who are not Catholics, conditionally based on the culpability of their lack of knowledge.

And lastly; I believe it the age of "reason" around 7 years old; not as you suggest the age of sacramental Confirmation which you have correctly. Catechism #s 1244 & 1457

God Bless you

Than it is obvious you are not proposing any sort of proposition that Jesus is lying, but simply arguing for the certainty of what you believe.

I do not buy it.

By the way the Bible is full of error and the books are of decidedly questionable provenance. Bad foundation to base the doctrine and dogma of a church.
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
Yes, Islam discards this teaching (I was a Christian for over sixty years, and know full well what this teaching is); but it is not Jesus who lied. Your notion that Islam believes him to have been a liar is false. That really is all that needs to be said.
lol. To discard Christ's teachings isn't in any way saying that he wasn't telling the truth. But he didn't lie. OK.

Were you an orthodox (Biblical/catholic) believer? Christ taught the Gospel, not the OT. He taught that the OT wasn't from heaven but that he was.

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.- John 6:32

Jesus taught of a different person in God that even Moses believed. The true "bread" (knowledge) resides more in the Gospels (canon and non canon) than the OT. Jesus ended the OT with the words "it is finished". No more prophesies or prophets needed. The Holy Spirit was released to man, which is all the truth needed.

Johns Gospel:
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:


Thanks for your input, friend. But to read the early Christian scriptures of gnosis 1st and 2nd century, rather than the OT, I have all I need. But you do have a valid argument against the catholic orthodox who teach an OT ideology of priests and the battle between if god is Yahweh or Allah.

I'll go with the God who is beyond a name, but simply Father.

Peace.
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
lol. To discard Christ's teachings isn't in any way saying that he wasn't telling the truth. But he didn't lie. OK.

Were you an orthodox (Biblical/catholic) believer? Christ taught the Gospel, not the OT. He taught that the OT wasn't from heaven but that he was.

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.- John 6:32

Jesus taught of a different person in God that even Moses believed. The true "bread" (knowledge) resides more in the Gospels (canon and non canon) than the OT. Jesus ended the OT with the words "it is finished". No more prophesies or prophets needed. The Holy Spirit was released to man, which is all the truth needed.

Johns Gospel:
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:


Thanks for your input, friend. But to read the early Christian scriptures of gnosis 1st and 2nd century, rather than the OT, I have all I need. But you do have a valid argument against the catholic orthodox who teach an OT ideology of priests and the battle between if god is Yahweh or Allah.

I'll go with the God who is beyond a name, but simply Father.

Peace.

In answer to your question: For around 45 of my 60+ years a Christian I was a Catholic. Before that, a Welsh Baptist. For just over 10 years I was a professed Carmelite Tertiary. I spent time with the Carmelite Friars at Hazelwood Castle (near York..and now a hotel), and over a year with the Trappists at Mount St Bernard Abbey in Leicester; both in pursuit of a vocation. As a Catholic I was well educated in the usual stuff..and had very good teachers. I have known, and loved, many fine Christians..beacons of their Faith. When my son became a Muslim (around 14 years ago), and later married a Moroccan lass, I decided it was time to study Islam. The rest, as they say, is history. As things now stand I can never revert to Christianity, not because I disrespect the Church; and certainly not because I disrespect Christians; but because I can no longer - in conscience - accept certain of its fundamental dogmas. I do cherish its spiritually, though; and the memory of those Christians who helped me grow.
 
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Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
@Phantasman

Please allow me to share this with you.

I was raised as a Baptist in Tynewydd (Rhondda).

In the 1920’s a number of Italian families moved into Glamorgan and set up shops and cafes. One of these families (the Bassini’s) settled in Tynewydd.

When Italy declared war, and joined with Germany, the UK government issued an internment order against those it deemed to be ‘enemy civilians’. This included the Bassini’s. The husband (I knew him as Jack) was taken away, but his wife and children were allowed to remain in their home (they had a café and a fish and chip shop next to each other).

One day, my grandfather was returning from work, only to discover a mob hurling abuse (and stones) at the Bassini’s and their home; at people they had once called friends. My grandfather told the mob to stop, and they did. Many years later the family’s eldest daughter (Maria) was accepted into the Carmelite Order, and my grandfather and grandmother were invited to attend the ceremony. A great honour.

My grandfather was an Elder at Blaencwm Chapel. The Elders employed the Minister.

When I was a teenager, one Minister came to my grandfather’s house. He was treated like royalty. My grandfather called him ‘Sir’. Later, I asked my grandfather why he had called this man ‘Sir’ after all, he was the Minister’s boss!

My grandfather smiled, and said: ‘I’m just an Elder. The Minister speaks the Word!’

When my grandfather died, several hundred men – of all ages – attended his funeral (women did not do so in those days). They filled the cemetery chapel, and many were weeping openly.

My grandfather was able to calm a howling mob – and move the hearts of many – not because of any legal authority (he had none), but because of his character; because of the person he was. He lived his Faith as it was meant to be lived. A Christian would say that he reflected the love of Jesus; and that it was this that made him a shining beacon to others. I would say that he reflected the love of God. He led by example rather than by argument.

Although I can no longer share all of my grandfather’s theology he remains, by far, the finest man I ever met.

By the way, he left school as the age of ten to work in the mines (illegal by that time, but who was to tell). Using the local Miners’ Institute - centers of learning at that time - and being a book-worm, he learned - among other things - both Hebrew and Greek. His second great passion - Faith and Family together being his first - was music. Able to play both violin and piano - and to transpose written music into tonic-solfa for those who could not read music - he was appointed Musical Director of the Glanselsig Amateur Operatic Society. His favourite work was Handel’s Messiah. I can see him now, dressed in his black evening suit, white shirt, black dickie-bow, conducting a full chorus and orchestra, with his white baton; with every word, every note engraved in his heart. I have his baton, but none of his talent!

I love him so much.
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
My Grandfather.

Granpa.jpg
 

Patrick Miron

Patrick4Jesus
@Phantasman

Please allow me to share this with you.

I was raised as a Baptist in Tynewydd (Rhondda).

In the 1920’s a number of Italian families moved into Glamorgan and set up shops and cafes. One of these families (the Bassini’s) settled in Tynewydd.

When Italy declared war, and joined with Germany, the UK government issued an internment order against those it deemed to be ‘enemy civilians’. This included the Bassini’s. The husband (I knew him as Jack) was taken away, but his wife and children were allowed to remain in their home (they had a café and a fish and chip shop next to each other).

One day, my grandfather was returning from work, only to discover a mob hurling abuse (and stones) at the Bassini’s and their home; at people they had once called friends. My grandfather told the mob to stop, and they did. Many years later the family’s eldest daughter (Maria) was accepted into the Carmelite Order, and my grandfather and grandmother were invited to attend the ceremony. A great honour.

My grandfather was an Elder at Blaencwm Chapel. The Elders employed the Minister.

When I was a teenager, one Minister came to my grandfather’s house. He was treated like royalty. My grandfather called him ‘Sir’. Later, I asked my grandfather why he had called this man ‘Sir’ after all, he was the Minister’s boss!

My grandfather smiled, and said: ‘I’m just an Elder. The Minister speaks the Word!’

When my grandfather died, several hundred men – of all ages – attended his funeral (women did not do so in those days). They filled the cemetery chapel, and many were weeping openly.

My grandfather was able to calm a howling mob – and move the hearts of many – not because of any legal authority (he had none), but because of his character; because of the person he was. He lived his Faith as it was meant to be lived. A Christian would say that he reflected the love of Jesus; and that it was this that made him a shining beacon to others. I would say that he reflected the love of God. He led by example rather than by argument.

Although I can no longer share all of my grandfather’s theology he remains, by far, the finest man I ever met.

By the way, he left school as the age of ten to work in the mines (illegal by that time, but who was to tell). Using the local Miners’ Institute - centers of learning at that time - and being a book-worm, he learned - among other things - both Hebrew and Greek. His second great passion - Faith and Family together being his first - was music. Able to play both violin and piano - and to transpose written music into tonic-solfa for those who could not read music - he was appointed Musical Director of the Glanselsig Amateur Operatic Society. His favourite work was Handel’s Messiah. I can see him now, dressed in his black evening suit, white shirt, black dickie-bow, conducting a full chorus and orchestra, with his white baton; with every word, every note engraved in his heart. I have his baton, but none of his talent!

I love him so much.

Grandpa was ASTOUNDING, and you are amazing!

Thanks for sharing
 
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