Did Jesus Lie?

[Kolibri]

You're totally missing the mark. The problem with merging gospels applies when you have a harmonized gospel which does not take into account the discrepancies that one should find if reading the gospels apart from one another. The value in reading the gospels apart from one another is that you'll find what happens in the story of Jesus's life largely depends on which gospel you read. If the texts were reliable you should be able to merge the gospels together and get the fuller story of Jesus's life and ministry, which is the story that being covered over the four gospels. You don't get to say Jesus lived four different versions of his own life from different angles. Too bad.

Yes, all four gospels are like 4 different witnesses describing what they saw. Much like witnesses to a car accident or some other event. Different things stood out to each, and different things were overlooked. If we harmonized them and discarded the originals, we might have the same complete picture with less digging, but we would have lost some of the credibility.

 

[psychoslice]

yes, if he was true, his long gone.

 

[roger1440]

You're totally missing the mark. The problem with merging gospels applies when you have a harmonized gospel which does not take into account the discrepancies that one should find if reading the gospels apart from one another. The value in reading the gospels apart from one another is that you'll find what happens in the story of Jesus's life largely depends on which gospel you read. If the texts were reliable you should be able to merge the gospels together and get the fuller story of Jesus's life and ministry, which is the story that being covered over the four gospels. You don't get to say Jesus lived four different versions of his own life from different angles. Too bad.

John's Gospel is the means back to the Garden of Eden. We don't get that message with the Synoptic Gospels.

 

[Kenny]

Which is a child's retort.

In answer to a childish statement?

But you stated it as fact.

Paradise. . .was a temporal holding place of blessing until Jesus fulfilled his mission to redeem mankind.​

And

When he died, he preached to those who were waiting for the Messiah in Paradise and when he arose from the dead he took them with him to Heaven.​

Doesn't make any difference who you posted it in response to or why. You stated it as a matter of fact.

Paradise. . .was a temporal holding place of blessing until Jesus fulfilled his mission to redeem mankind.​

And

When he died, he preached to those who were waiting for the Messiah in Paradise and when he arose from the dead he took them with him to Heaven.​

Absolutely. We are talking about a position of belief within the framework of a Biblical text as asked by the poster. It is a factual understanding within the Christian positions.

I am not requiring you to accept it as a literal fact. As a matter of fact (pardon the pun) , you can throw it in the garbage if you so desire. If you don't belief it to be literal and factual, I completely support you in your right to hold that position. However, you would hold that position as I hold my position, as a position of faith. I have no empirical and verifiable evidence to support my position as you have no empirical and verifiable evidence to debunk my position.

 

[Kenny]

You're totally missing the mark. The problem with merging gospels applies when you have a harmonized gospel which does not take into account the discrepancies that one should find if reading the gospels apart from one another. The value in reading the gospels apart from one another is that you'll find what happens in the story of Jesus's life largely depends on which gospel you read. If the texts were reliable you should be able to merge the gospels together and get the fuller story of Jesus's life and ministry, which is the story that being covered over the four gospels. You don't get to say Jesus lived four different versions of his own life from different angles. Too bad.

I wouldn't agree. The Gospels were written with different people in mind, and thus explain it from different angles (as the famous analogy of blind people describing an elephant by touching different parts of it).

Certainly one can decide that they are not. However, our position is that there are explanations that can harmonize their stories. Again, like 3 people explaining a car accident viewed in different angles may appear to be contrary to each other and yet the three can be harmonized into one story.

The prosecutor will show the discrepancies, the defender will show the harmony... each according to their viewpoint.

 

[Skwim]

In answer to a childish statement?

"How do you know this to be true?" could be a childish statement? Now your really scrapping the bottom of the barrel to save your self-respect.

Absolutely. We are talking about a position of belief within the framework of a Biblical text as asked by the poster. It is a factual understanding within the Christian positions.

Then answer my questions:
"How do you know this to be true?"
"How do you know this to be true?"

I am not requiring you to accept it as a literal fact. As a matter of fact (pardon the pun) , you can throw it in the garbage if you so desire. If you don't belief it to be literal and factual, I completely support you in your right to hold that position. However, you would hold that position as I hold my position, as a position of faith. I have no empirical and verifiable evidence to support my position as you have no empirical and verifiable evidence to debunk my position.

So why do you assert it as fact? If there's no empirical and verifiable evidence to support your position, what kind of evidence are you using? This is something that just popped into your head out of nowhere and you need it to be a fact, so it is?

 

[roger1440]

You're totally missing the mark. The problem with merging gospels applies when you have a harmonized gospel which does not take into account the discrepancies that one should find if reading the gospels apart from one another. The value in reading the gospels apart from one another is that you'll find what happens in the story of Jesus's life largely depends on which gospel you read. If the texts were reliable you should be able to merge the gospels together and get the fuller story of Jesus's life and ministry, which is the story that being covered over the four gospels. You don't get to say Jesus lived four different versions of his own life from different angles. Too bad.

The gospels were never meant to be taken literal. The synoptic gospels (Matthew, Luke and Mark) use a different angle then John’s gospel. It is only in John’s gospel that Jesus is portrayed as God. John’s gospel pulls a few themes from the creation story in Genesis and uses them in Jesus’s crucifixion. The very last words John puts on Jesus’s lips is, “It is finished.” These are the same words God says in Genesis when is done with creation. This is no mere coincidence. The belief in Jesus is a new creation. To be born from above.

 

[Kenny]

"How do you know this to be true?" could be a childish statement? Now your really scrapping the bottom of the barrel to save your self-respect.

If that makes you happy.

Then answer my questions:
"How do you know this to be true?"
"How do you know this to be true?"


So why do you assert it as fact? If there's no empirical and verifiable evidence to support your position, what kind of evidence are you using? This is something that just popped into your head out of nowhere and you need it to be a fact, so it is?

Depends on what area you are talking about. Overall, for me!! and I repeat, for me--it has been a process of logical deductions that satisfied my questions and confirmed through experience.

I started off by establishing an hypothesis and that being "Either the Bible is true or its not". Deep, huh? "I'm going to start with the assumption that it is true, and then I am going to test the sucker. I'll find out soon enough if it is or isn't"

After seeing the promises within the texts I read becoming true, adding to it the prophetic declarations that have come to pass, understanding the scriptures and their meaning, it built enough trust to believe that those things that have yet to happen will come to pass.

In reference to Paradise, as I said before, there is no empirical and verifiable evidence to prove it is true as there is no empirical and verifiable evidence to prove it isn't. FOR ME, it is a trust that if all that has happened has come true, then I have confidence the rest that was written will be true also.

Now... answer my questions:
"How do you know this to be false?"
"How do you know this to be false?"

 

[Skwim]

If that makes you happy.

Not at all, just wary.

Depends on what area you are talking about,for me!! and I repeat, for me--it has been a process of logical deductions that satisfied my questions and confirming through experience.

I started off by establishing an hypothesis and that being "Either the Bible is true or its not". Deep, huh? "I'm going to start with the assumption that it is true, and then I am going to test the sucker. I'll find out soon enough if it is or isn't"

After seeing many a promise within the texts I read becoming true, adding to it the prophetic declarations that have come to pass, it built enough trust to believe that those things that have yet to happen will come to pass.

In reference to Paradise, as I said before, there is no empirical and verifiable evidence to prove it is true as there is no empirical and verifiable evidence to prove it isn't. FOR ME, it is a trust that if all that has happened has come true, then I have confidence the rest that was written will be true also.

Now... answer my questions:
"How do you know this to be false?"
"How do you know this to be false?"

What? That your statement here may all be a lie, and that you're just joshing me? I don't, but then I wouldn't assert it as a fact. I regard its truth---you actually believe and mean what you've written here---as more likely than not.

 

[Kenny]

Not at all, just wary.


What? That your statement here may all be a lie, and that you're just joshing me? I don't, but then I wouldn't assert it as a fact. I regard its truth---you actually believe and mean what you've written here---as more likely than not.

You lost me completely, not to mention you never answered my questions.

Sounds more like a created strawman along with trolling efforts.

 

[NulliuSINverba]

Why do you ask, is this a major stumbling block for you?

It does appear to be an outright contradiction. Obviously, when the Bible appears to be contradicted by external facts, we're advised to simply discard the troublesome facts. But what does one do when the Bible contradicts itself?

If so, well you have come to the right place --- filled with scrutinizers looking not for the truth, but to trip up God by dissecting His Word into their own favored interpretations.

Despite all those different translations of the Bible, just remember that God is not the author of confusion. Let that be (y)our mantra. Simply repeat it until whatever the original inquiry was has been totally forgotten.

(One contradiction or paradox is all apparently needed to remain content on the outside looking in. Meanwhile, John Cardinal Henry Newman says “a thousand difficulties does not make for one doubt.”)

He must have been speaking for himself, no?

Jesus knew denials and refusals such as this would come even in his time, which is why He said --- “If you will not believe in me then put faith in the works that I do.”

Is that also why he said:

"Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." ~ Luke 21:32

It seems that regarding this verse, there are two possibilities:

1.) That generation passed away thousands of years ago before all those things happened.
2.) That generation has not passed away (despite the intervening centuries) and is still waiting around for those things to happen.

But even signs and wonders will not draw closer the one of a “sluggish heart.”

Especially if God is actively manipulating the results:

"For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie." ~ 2 Thessalonians 2:11

To answer your question --- Jesus/God can be in many places all at once. So perhaps He was in paradise (another word nit picked for ulterior motives) and the nether world at the same time.

Perhaps? What a wonderfully speculative word.

Perhaps he simply forgot to reset his watch from Celestial Standard Time to Local Jerusalem Time? I mean, if you're willing to pull (non-)explanations out of your ... thin air ... why not go for something plausible?

After all, Jesus is capable of giving the prayers of 100 million souls His singular attention simultaneously.

Are you suggesting that an omnipotent being can get confused? Perhaps this explains why so many of those prayers appear to be answered with a cursory "no?"

 

[Kolibri]

It is only in John’s gospel that Jesus is portrayed as God.

This is not correct. Though I admit that the way many translations convert the Greek to English makes it seems to be that way.
John himself stated the purpose of his writing yet another "Good News." And it was not to prove that point. Rather it was:

"But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name." - John 20:31

Even early on John emphasized this theme:

"So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth." - John 1:14

 

[Skwim]

You lost me completely, not to mention you never answered my questions.

*SIGH*
​

You said

Now... answer my questions:
"How do you know this to be false?"
"How do you know this to be false?"
​

Not certain what your "this" referred to in your questions here, I asked

What? That your statement here may all be a lie, and that you're just joshing me?
​

Assuming this is what you were referring to I then commented:

I don't[know it to be false], but then I wouldn't assert it as a fact. I regard its (your statement above) truth---you actually believe and mean what you've written here---as more likely than not.​

If you still fail to understand, I suggest asking someone else to explain.

 

[Kenny]

C'est la vie

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The Bible says in Luke 23:43 that Jesus told the thief on the cross that they would be together in paradise that same day. However, three days later Jesus told Mary in John 20:17 that He had not yet ascended to Heaven. So did He lie to the thief? Or did He lie to Mary? Was He in Heaven with the thief on Friday evening or had He not yet gone to Heaven on Sunday morning? It does not seem possible for both to be true so He either lied or somehow made a mistake.

The problem seems to have been created by translators wrongly making a mistake by placing a comma 'before' the word today at Luke 23:43.

The day Jesus died Jesus went to the Bible's hell or grave -> Acts 2:27,31,32; Psalm 16:10

Also, No one who died before Jesus - John 3:13 - would ever go to heaven.

So, Jesus was making a promise the day he died saying: today, you will be with me (Not in heaven ) but in paradise. The ' you will be ' is future tense, as the future tense is used at Acts 24:15 that there ' will be ' a resurrection........

Since No one is going to heaven who died before Jesus died, including King David- Acts 2:34 -, then the thief is going to have a future healthy physical resurrection on a beautiful paradisaic earth with David, Daniel -12:2,13-, and those mentioned at Hebrews chapter 11 taking place during Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom reign over earth.

Please keep this in mind: There is a BIG difference between recognizing minor mistakes - which crept into copies - of Bible texts and trying to dismiss the whole Bible as a fabrication.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You're totally missing the mark. The problem with merging gospels applies when you have a harmonized gospel which does not take into account the discrepancies that one should find if reading the gospels apart from one another. The value in reading the gospels apart from one another is that you'll find what happens in the story of Jesus' life largely depends on which gospel you read. If the texts were reliable you should be able to merge the gospels together and get the fuller story of Jesus' life and ministry, which is the story that being covered over the four gospels. You don't get to say Jesus lived four different versions of his own life from different angles. Too bad.

It is more like One gospel with 4 writers:
'The' gospel according to Matthew
'The' gospel according to Mark
'The' gospel according to Luke
'The' gospel according to John

 

[allfoak]

The gospels were written in the language of the soul.

You know... that nagging little voice in our head that keeps telling us to play nice?
Like that voice, the scriptures were designed to be a catalyst to spiritual enlightenment, not a history lesson.
Even worse is to think that they were written as a way to teach redemptive salvation.


Some guy, born of a virgin, was somehow god and man at the same time, was "sacrificed" on a cross 2000yrs ago, and is somehow going to either welcome me into his kingdom or send me to hell as a reward or punishment for worshiping him.

Seems like an awful big waste of time and space to write all of those books over thousands of years, to say what i just did in one sentence.
If this is the reason the scriptures were written, it is the same as saying that the entire universe has no other life forms but us.
What a big waste of space.

Did Jesus Lie?
He was a man after God's own heart.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."
Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise."
See the difference ?.

Good point ^above^ because you are showing the differing placements of the comma.
Translators are the ones who chose to place a comma ' before ' the word today.

Also, we were never instructed to pray: Our Father who art in paradise.....
God's home is heaven - 1st Kings chapter 8 - and Adam's home was the paradise of Eden.
We never talk of vacationing in heaven, but traveling to a paradise on earth for a vacation.

According to Acts 2:27,31,32 Jesus did Not go to paradise nor heaven the day Jesus died.
Rather, the day Jesus died Jesus went to the grave (KJV Bibles use the English word hell)
Jesus was in the grave or tomb until God resurrected the dead Jesus - Acts 3:15;13:30,37

Jesus taught unconscious sleep in death - John 11: 11-14 - and that unconscious condition Jesus would have been educated from the old Hebrew Scriptures such as found at:
- Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; 146:4; Daniel 12:2,13
So, while in the Bible's temporary grave/hell Jesus would have Not been conscious of anything.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Some guy, born of a virgin, was somehow god and man at the same time, was "sacrificed" on a cross 2000yrs ago, and is somehow going to either welcome me into his kingdom or send me to hell as a reward or punishment for worshiping him.
Did Jesus Lie?
He was a man after God's own heart.

Who sent the dead Jesus to hell ? - Acts 2:27,31,32; Psalm 16:10
The day Jesus died Jesus went to the Bible's temporary hell or grave for the sleeping dead.
- See Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; 146:4; Daniel 12:2,13; John 11:11-14

Jesus did Not lie. Rather it was especially when the Jews began mixing with the Greeks that they adopted worldly theories and philosophies and began wrongly teaching them as Scripture when such ideas are Not found in Scripture.

If biblical hell was a permanent reward or a punishment then Jesus would still be in hell.

As far as being welcomed into his kingdom: some will have a first or earlier resurrection to heaven according to Revelation 20:6; 5:9,10:2:10. The majority of mankind - John 3:13 - will be welcomed into his kingdom ruling over earth when Jesus resurrects the majority of mankind back to restored healthy physical life on earth starting with Jesus' 1000-year kingdom rule over earth. Jesus will usher in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill starting with the humble ' sheep'-like ones of Matthew 25:31,32.

 

[thau]

It does appear to be an outright contradiction. Obviously, when the Bible appears to be contradicted by external facts, we're advised to simply discard the troublesome facts. But what does one do when the Bible contradicts itself?



Despite all those different translations of the Bible, just remember that God is not the author of confusion. Let that be (y)our mantra. Simply repeat it until whatever the original inquiry was has been totally forgotten.



He must have been speaking for himself, no?



Is that also why he said:

"Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." ~ Luke 21:32

It seems that regarding this verse, there are two possibilities:

1.) That generation passed away thousands of years ago before all those things happened.
2.) That generation has not passed away (despite the intervening centuries) and is still waiting around for those things to happen.



Especially if God is actively manipulating the results:

"For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie." ~ 2 Thessalonians 2:11



Perhaps? What a wonderfully speculative word.

Perhaps he simply forgot to reset his watch from Celestial Standard Time to Local Jerusalem Time? I mean, if you're willing to pull (non-)explanations out of your ... thin air ... why not go for something plausible?



Are you suggesting that an omnipotent being can get confused? Perhaps this explains why so many of those prayers appear to be answered with a cursory "no?"

thau said: Why do you ask, is this a major stumbling block for you?

>>It does appear to be an outright contradiction. Obviously, when the Bible appears to be contradicted by external facts, we're advised to simply discard the troublesome facts. But what does one do when the Bible contradicts itself?<<

Your question begs for all kinds of different responses. I will only give you two. 1) Until you come to know your Lord in a more intimate and compelling certainty, you will likely continue to think those little “difficulties” are actual reasons demonstrating this God cannot be real. 2) You are relying on only one interpretation and quite often superficial. Setting aside the fact it is an English translation you still cannot tell me what is meant by heaven or paradise or other afterworld descriptions. Allow me to add this at this time: Who told you the Bible is the final authority? Who told you if you can find something disingenuous in Scripture you have found something disingenuous in God? No doubt some protestant you are using for a resource.

So you ask, What does one do when the Bible contradicts itself? You mean “allegedly?” Answer is you make your appeal to the Catholic Church. They have been granted the authority by Jesus Christ to rule. That is, if you dare trust what the Bible says, because the Bible says that the Church has the answers and "the keys of the kingdom."

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If so, well you have come to the right place --- filled with scrutinizers looking not for the truth, but to trip up God by dissecting His Word into their own favored interpretations.

>>Despite all those different translations of the Bible, just remember that God is not the author of confusion. Let that be (y)our mantra. Simply repeat it until whatever the original inquiry was has been totally forgotten.<<

Well that does not mean that you are not confused. Clearly, you are. What care I about all the different translations of the Bible? You are so poorly educated on the Christian faith it allows you to come so many faulty conclusions. IMO.

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(One contradiction or paradox is all apparently needed to remain content on the outside looking in. Meanwhile, John Cardinal Henry Newman says “a thousand difficulties does not make for one doubt.”)

>>He must have been speaking for himself, no?<<

Himself and myself and a thousand saints and millions of souls and the Catholic Church. Again, you have the wrong foundation or starting point. Not only that, you have an agenda and end, in search of only those means that will support it. You see, Cardinal Newman went about it piously, humble and properly. “God reveals Himself to those who keep the demands of His covenant.” Cardinal Newman has been gifted with knowledge and graces that far surpass your present state. He knows God exists and who God is from the revelations and reasons before Him. Therefore, if your little difficulties or puzzles are presented in order to try to disprove the existence of God, you got it all wrong. Because God is already known. So even a thousand of your difficulties cannot cast the slightest doubt upon the reality of God and Jesus Christ as the divine One.

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Jesus knew denials and refusals such as this would come even in his time, which is why He said --- “If you will not believe in me then put faith in the works that I do.”

Is that also why he said: "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." ~ Luke 21:32 It seems that regarding this verse, there are two possibilities: 1.) That generation passed away thousands of years ago before all those things happened. 2.) That generation has not passed away (despite the intervening centuries) and is still waiting around for those things to happen.

I am not about to research this one for you. There are many different understandings of this passage and, again, many things Jesus said had more than one meaning or reference or purpose. This is most likely but another example of that. It is too bad you demand God speak on your terms and totally unveiled at all times because you (meaning the larger body of ‘you’) are hard headed or obstinate or too much of this world or filled with pride. (See Matthew 13 if interested)

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But even signs and wonders will not draw closer the one of a “sluggish heart.”

>>Especially if God is actively manipulating the results: "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie." ~ 2 Thessalonians 2:11 <<

Yes, and who is Paul speaking of? If you included the previous verse it is those God allows to be deceived who “because they have not opened their hearts to the truth in order to be saved.”Is that you nullius? It is surely referring to those who Jesus called of a sluggish heart. Let us not act so clueless here. You want to live your life pompously and filled with self indulgence and the stop but for a moment to address some beggar to say --- “Who is this God you speak of? What proof have you of him?” Yes, such bravado because you can find contradictions in the Word or you can address the claims of Christians on the street with your own clever rejoinders.

Are you following? It is you Paul speaks of. You have not opened your heart to wanting to know the truth in order to be saved. You want to live a life of lust and pleasure until someone proves you wrong or until God strikes you with lightning. It won’t happen. You must first humble yourself and then “the delusion” will fade away.

1 Timothy 6: "If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth…”

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To answer your question --- Jesus/God can be in many places all at once. So perhaps He was in paradise (another word nit picked for ulterior motives) and the nether world at the same time.

>>Perhaps? What a wonderfully speculative word. Perhaps he simply forgot to reset his watch from Celestial Standard Time to Local Jerusalem Time? I mean, if you're willing to pull (non-)explanations out of your ... thin air ... why not go for something plausible?<<

I added the word “perhaps” not for my defense but to appeal to those who want everything explained in the most elementary of ways. Like Jesus is really feeling embarrassed that He told us He was going to paradise with the thief and then realized later after reading His Book that He told Mary he had not yet gone there. I mean, seriously, what is it you are trying to get at because to me this is all stupid? I suspect what you are trying get at is to make the claim the Bible was nothing more than a bunch of lowly Jews concocting some story to create a divinity and they carelessly made some errors in their inerrant word? Either that, or maybe you are trying to tell me there might be a God but he is not all that impressive because look at the contradictions he put in his word. Like I said, whatever you or the other guy are trying to tell me totally escapes me. I told you if God can listen to 100 million prayers at once He surely can be in more than one place at once.

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After all, Jesus is capable of giving the prayers of 100 million souls His singular attention simultaneously.

>>Are you suggesting that an omnipotent being can get confused? Perhaps this explains why so many of those prayers appear to be answered with a cursory "no?"<<

Too bad you rely too much on “appearances.” Too bad you consider God to be no more wiser than yourself. Too bad you demand a sign and when a sign is given you squirm out of it by providing counter-explanations that would make an 8th grader blush. Too bad I might be right when I suggested you have a sluggish heart. I do not wish ill will upon you or anyone, but nor do I think my telling “Jesus loves you just as you are, kneel down and ask him into your heart” is going to be the answer you are looking for. But if you do make that prayer (sincerely), I do not think you will get a “cursory No.”