Did Jesus preach with intent to start a new religion?

[Muffled]

If I had to conjecture...well, not if I had to, I have conjectured in the past on this question simply because I like to, so if I choose to repeat old conjectures, I'd say that Jesus was trying to reformulate Judaism -- to change its stress from legalistic adherence to rite and ritual and focus more on a quasi spiritual notion of "doing good." He did this by presenting his own understanding of written and oral text, and supplementing with his own teachings which removed parts he didn't like and replaced them with his own reformulations. This was an attempt to give an accessible Judaism to those Jews who might have felt alienated by the existing Rabbinic system. So a "new religion"? Not exactly. A new and (in his mind) improved version of the existing religion.

I don't believe it is quasi-spiritual but is entirely spiritual. In that sense there is no change. It is what God wanted from the beginning but people rejected it. The law was a stop gap for that lack.

 

[Muffled]

Realize also that Jesus created no church. That is a mistranslation. Most English translations are deliberately incorrect. The word originally used is ecclesia, and it means people and/or congregation, not church.

Although "church " is used to describe a building, I believe the Church is the people who believe.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I believe you arguments would be speculation. The Bible is a fact.

 

[truthofscripture]

Although "church " is used to describe a building, I believe the Church is the people who believe.

It's fine to believe what you wish, but church as far as scriptures are concerned, is the religion that uses that building. It actually refers to a religion, not a building. Jesus did not start a religion, he taught "the one true faith". Religions and governments changed many words in the scriptures to reflect what they wanted people to read, as they didn't like much what God had to say. They changed "ecclesia" from people/congregation to church. They removed God's personal name, Jehovah when in the original texts it appears 7,000 times. They changed holy spirit to holy ghost, but ghosts do not exist, what people think are ghosts are demons, the third of the angels who sided with Satan and were tossed out of heaven to Earth. They changed torture stake (stauros) to cross to attract pagans. Stauros is the word they used to describe the device of murder for Jesus, which was the torture stake most commonly used for executions. Constantine, the pagan emperor, called Pontifus Maximus, meaning the top chief pagan, changed stauros to cross, as cross was for hundreds of years, a pagan symbol for male genitalia. Jesus didn't die on any cross. Notice how the pope calls himself Pontifus Maximus to this day?

 

[jeager106]

It's fine to believe what you wish, but church as far as scriptures are concerned, is the religion that uses that building. It actually refers to a religion, not a building. Jesus did not start a religion, he taught "the one true faith". Religions and governments changed many words in the scriptures to reflect what they wanted people to read, as they didn't like much what God had to say. They changed "ecclesia" from people/congregation to church. They removed God's personal name, Jehovah when in the original texts it appears 7,000 times. They changed holy spirit to holy ghost, but ghosts do not exist, what people think are ghosts are demons, the third of the angels who sided with Satan and were tossed out of heaven to Earth. They changed torture stake (stauros) to cross to attract pagans. Stauros is the word they used to describe the device of murder for Jesus, which was the torture stake most commonly used for executions. Constantine, the pagan emperor, called Pontifus Maximus, meaning the top chief pagan, changed stauros to cross, as cross was for hundreds of years, a pagan symbol for male genitalia. Jesus didn't die on any cross. Notice how the pope calls himself Pontifus Maximus to this day?

Indeed I have read what you wrote in many explainations of cross vs. torture stake. Conlusions of biblical historians were it was
a torture stake, not a cross. The cross came later added by the "chruch" to satisfy pagans.

 

[truthofscripture]

Indeed I have read what you wrote in many explainations of cross vs. torture stake. Conlusions of biblical historians were it was
a torture stake, not a cross. The cross came later added by the "chruch" to satisfy pagans.

Indeed I have read what you wrote in many explainations of cross vs. torture stake. Conlusions of biblical historians were it was
a torture stake, not a cross. The cross came later added by the "chruch" to satisfy pagans.

Yes. As a result, all so called "Christian" religions, are not Christian, but pagan, and their membership is none the wiser. It prevents them from gaining benefit from any of the promises of Jehovah God. They work to oppose Jehovah. They will be destroyed as Revelation to John says, and they have no resurrection hope. And their false religions teach them that they go to heaven or to hell, when the scriptures clearly teach that we don't have a soul, we are a mortal soul that dies.

 

[jeager106]

Christendom has done a fine job deceiving chruch members for centuries.
They could get away with that when the bulk of worshipers were illiterate.
Now most eveyone can read, google up tons of information on how the church as led so many from the
truth, yet people seem content to be caught up in tradition & pagan based Christendoms religion without so much as a whimper.
If a person believes in God, that He created us, that He has a plan for us would it not behoove believers
to do a little investigating to determine what is truth, what is deception?

 

[Muffled]

It's fine to believe what you wish, but church as far as scriptures are concerned, is the religion that uses that building. It actually refers to a religion, not a building. Jesus did not start a religion, he taught "the one true faith". Religions and governments changed many words in the scriptures to reflect what they wanted people to read, as they didn't like much what God had to say. They changed "ecclesia" from people/congregation to church. They removed God's personal name, Jehovah when in the original texts it appears 7,000 times. They changed holy spirit to holy ghost, but ghosts do not exist, what people think are ghosts are demons, the third of the angels who sided with Satan and were tossed out of heaven to Earth. They changed torture stake (stauros) to cross to attract pagans. Stauros is the word they used to describe the device of murder for Jesus, which was the torture stake most commonly used for executions. Constantine, the pagan emperor, called Pontifus Maximus, meaning the top chief pagan, changed stauros to cross, as cross was for hundreds of years, a pagan symbol for male genitalia. Jesus didn't die on any cross. Notice how the pope calls himself Pontifus Maximus to this day?

I believe The One True Faith is a religion.

I believe there is no evidence to support this concept in most cases.

I believe one does not remove something that was never there. I believe there are those who specualte rather than understand things who say that something was removed. For instance the Tanach forbids anyone from changing scripture and there is no evidence that anyone did.

I don't beleive there is any way to prove that.

I believe theoretically all ghosts are demonic to some extent because all people are capable of evil. I don't believe there is a special race of demons but I do believe that there may be fallen angels who serve Satan.

I believe there is no proof of this.

I believe this is in error on two counts. First because Constantine became a Christian ans Second because he would have no influence in the church as a pagan.

 

[Muffled]

Indeed I have read what you wrote in many explainations of cross vs. torture stake. Conlusions of biblical historians were it was
a torture stake, not a cross. The cross came later added by the "chruch" to satisfy pagans.

I believe those Biblical historians are in error.

 

[Muffled]

Yes. As a result, all so called "Christian" religions, are not Christian, but pagan, and their membership is none the wiser. It prevents them from gaining benefit from any of the promises of Jehovah God. They work to oppose Jehovah. They will be destroyed as Revelation to John says, and they have no resurrection hope. And their false religions teach them that they go to heaven or to hell, when the scriptures clearly teach that we don't have a soul, we are a mortal soul that dies.

I believe only those who are enemies of Christ would call Christians Pagan.

 

[truthofscripture]

I believe The One True Faith is a religion.

I believe there is no evidence to support this concept in most cases.

I believe one does not remove something that was never there. I believe there are those who specualte rather than understand things who say that something was removed. For instance the Tanach forbids anyone from changing scripture and there is no evidence that anyone did.

I don't beleive there is any way to prove that.

I believe theoretically all ghosts are demonic to some extent because all people are capable of evil. I don't believe there is a special race of demons but I do believe that there may be fallen angels who serve Satan.

I believe there is no proof of this.

I believe this is in error on two counts. First because Constantine became a Christian ans Second because he would have no influence in the church as a pagan.

Your loss.

 

[outhouse]

Conlusions of biblical historians were it was
a torture stake, not a cross

No a T shape has the majority at this time.

 

[jeager106]

I believe The One True Faith is a religion.

I believe there is no evidence to support this concept in most cases.

I believe one does not remove something that was never there. I believe there are those who specualte rather than understand things who say that something was removed. For instance the Tanach forbids anyone from changing scripture and there is no evidence that anyone did.

I don't beleive there is any way to prove that.

I believe theoretically all ghosts are demonic to some extent because all people are capable of evil. I don't believe there is a special race of demons but I do believe that there may be fallen angels who serve Satan.

I believe there is no proof of this.

I believe this is in error on two counts. First because Constantine became a Christian ans Second because he would have no influence in the church as a pagan.

A Roman Emporer would have ALL the influence he desired. He worshiped pagan idols right up to the day he died.
IF he was baptised a Christian-and that is a big IF, he was baptised the day he died.

 

[jeager106]

No a T shape has the majority at this time.

Yes I do believe that is quite correct historically. The upright beam with a horizontal member forming the T.
Most folks don't know that sturdy, thick, beams were:
expensive
rare
were almost never used but once
Nails were iron, very, very expensive, all were hand forged and were pulled out and reused if at all possible.
Acheological evidence shows that if a spike could not be pulled out the beam was hacked to get the thing out.
Most likely an upright stake was used as it was cheaper, easier to make, didn't need a cross member to do
the ugly job.
There is no evidence that for the first 300 years after Christ’s death, those claiming to be Christians used the cross in worship. In the fourth century, however, pagan Emperor Constantine became a convert to apostate Christianity and promoted the cross as its symbol. Whatever Constantine’s motives, the cross had nothing to do with Jesus Christ. The cross is, in fact, pagan in origin. The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “The cross is found in both pre-Christian and non-Christian cultures.” Various other authorities have linked the cross with nature worship and pagan sex rites.

 

[truthofscripture]

Yes I do believe that is quite correct historically. The upright beam with a horizontal member forming the T.
Most folks don't know that sturdy, thick, beams were:
expensive
rare
were almost never used but once
Nails were iron, very, very expensive, all were hand forged and were pulled out and reused if at all possible.
Acheological evidence shows that if a spike could not be pulled out the beam was hacked to get the thing out.
Most likely an upright stake was used as it was cheaper, easier to make, didn't need a cross member to do
the ugly job.
There is no evidence that for the first 300 years after Christ’s death, those claiming to be Christians used the cross in worship. In the fourth century, however, pagan Emperor Constantine became a convert to apostate Christianity and promoted the cross as its symbol. Whatever Constantine’s motives, the cross had nothing to do with Jesus Christ. The cross is, in fact, pagan in origin. The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “The cross is found in both pre-Christian and non-Christian cultures.” Various other authorities have linked the cross with nature worship and pagan sex rites.

That's all true. The word used in the Christian Greek scriptures for the instrument of Jesus' death was "stauros", and in the classical Greek used at the time, it means stake or pole, depending upon the context. Only in modern Greek is it translated into English as cross. That is because of the influence of the pagan based Roman Church that later was called the Roman Catholic Church. They wanted to continue the pagan elements of their religion injected by Constantine, the Pontificus Maximus of all pagan religions of his day. Notice that the popes of today carry the same title Pontificus Maximus, denoting the top pagan authority. And note again the fish head hat they wear, clearly a repeat of the pagan fish symbols of two and three thousand years ago.

 

[outhouse]

That's all true. The word used in the Christian Greek scriptures for the instrument of Jesus' death was "stauros", and in the classical Greek used at the time, it means stake or pole, depending upon the context. Only in modern Greek is it translated into English as cross

No.

Not long after jesus death we have reports of a cross.

and his contemporary Tertullian could designate the body of Christian believers as crucis religiosi, i.e. "devotees of the Cross".[10] In his book De Corona, written in 204, Tertullian tells how it was already a tradition for Christians to trace repeatedly on their foreheads the sign of the cross


However, the cross symbol was already associated with Christians in the 2nd century, as is indicated in the anti-Christian arguments cited in the Octavius[7] of Minucius Felix, chapters IX and XXIX, written at the end of that century or the beginning of the next,[8] and by the fact that by the early 3rd century the cross had become so closely associated with Christ that Clement of Alexandria, who died between 211 and 216, could without fear of ambiguity use the phrase τὸ κυριακὸν σημεῖον (the Lord's sign) to mean the cross, when he repeated the idea, current as early as the apocryphal Epistle of Barnabas

 

[steeltoes]

That's all true. The word used in the Christian Greek scriptures for the instrument of Jesus' death was "stauros", and in the classical Greek used at the time, it means stake or pole, depending upon the context. Only in modern Greek is it translated into English as cross.

True, and according to Acts of the Apostles it was just a tree.

Acts 10:39
And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

Acts 13:29
And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

 

[Norman]

To establish a few suggestions for debate can we assume Jesus was a Jew?
Him being a Jew He would have been well educated in Jewish Law.
This is presented in the N.T. when Jesus was a boy and it was witnessed that He had great
knowlege of Jewish law.
"And Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit. News about Him spread through all the surrounding district and He began teaching in their synagogues and was praised by all."
Lk. 4:16-24.
In my reading/studying of the Christian bible I have yet to see anything specific that suggests He intended
to start a religion different than the Jewish faith.
There is no doubt Jesus had Jewish roots and echoed the plea of former prophets before Him
to repent and return to God. That would be parochial, to follow Jewish law.
" I have come only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matt. 15:24
It is indesputable that a new religion was born out his teaching, His life and His death & resurrection.
His intent was to bring people back to God and to draw all people to Himslef. John 12:32
His purpose was to reform the existing religious institution that would abolish the corruption
of the existing religious hierarchy.
Anyone can feel free to post here if they like unless the staff prohibits such.

Norman: Hi Jeager106, Here is my answer to you question (s)

The New Testament is the New Covenant; The Gospel of Jesus Christ is introduced

Romans 5:11 And not only so,‍ but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. (The Atonement of Jesus Christ replaced the law of Moses.

(Jesus He keeps the Passover and institutes the sacrament)

Matthew 26:26 ¶And‍ as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and‍ blessed it,‍ and brake it,‍ and gave it‍ to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it‍ to them, saying, Drink‍ ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood‍ of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission‍ of sins.

(Old Law) Matthew 5:21 ¶Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt‍ not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in‍ danger of the judgment: (New Law) 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry‍ with his brother without a cause‍ shall be in‍ danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in‍ danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled‍ to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

(Old Law) Matthew 5:27 ¶Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: (New Law) 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh‍ on a woman‍ to lust after‍ her hath committed adultery‍ with her already in his heart.

(Old Law) Matthew 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: (New Law) 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away‍ his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

(Old Law) Matthew 5:33 ¶Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform‍ unto the Lord thine oaths: (New Law) 34 But I say unto you, Swear‍ not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city‍ of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication‍ be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

(Old Law) Matthew 5:38 ¶Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye‍ for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: (New Laws) 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn‍ to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy‍ cloak also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give‍ to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow‍ of thee turn not thou away.

(Old Law) Matthew 5:43 ¶Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love‍ thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. (New Laws) 44 But I say unto you, Love‍ your enemies, bless‍ them that curse‍ you, do good‍ to them that hate‍ you, and pray‍ for them which despitefully use you, and persecute‍ you; 45 That ye may be‍ the children‍ of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain‍ on the just and on the unjust. 48 Be‍ ye therefore perfect, even as your Father‍ which is in heaven is perfect.

(New Laws) Matthew 6:1 Take heed‍ that ye do not your alms‍ before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2 Therefore when thou doest thine‍ alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites‍ do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory‍ of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 That thine alms‍ may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward‍ thee openly.

(Where to Pray) Matthew 6:5 ¶And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are:‍ for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut‍ thy door, pray‍ to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth‍ in secret shall reward‍ thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do:‍ for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth‍ what things ye have need‍ of, before ye ask him.

(How to Pray) Matthew 6:9 After‍ this manner therefore pray‍ ye: Our Father‍ which art in heaven, Hallowed‍ be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom‍ come. Thy will be‍ done in earth, as it is‍ in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive‍ our debtors. 13 And lead‍ us not into temptation, but‍ deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

(Law of Forgiveness) Matthew 6: 14 For if ye forgive‍ men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive‍ not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

(Law of Fasting) Matthew 6:16 ¶Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have‍ their reward. 17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; 18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward‍ thee openly.

(Law of Service) Matthew 6:24 ¶No‍ man can serve‍ two masters: for either he will hate‍ the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

(Law of Judgement) Matthew 7:1 Judge‍ not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment‍ ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure‍ ye mete, it shall be measured‍ to you again. 3 And‍ why beholdest thou the mote‍ that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam‍ that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is‍ in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye

(Beware) Matthew 7:15 ¶Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s‍ clothing, but inwardly‍ they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know‍ them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt‍ tree bringeth forth evil‍ fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can‍ a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit‍ is hewn‍ down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits‍ ye shall know them.

(Law of Authority) Matthew 7:29 For he taught them as one‍ having authority, and not as the scribes.

(New Offices)

(Quorum of The Twelve Apostles)…Luke 6:12-16…Simon, (Peter), Andrew, James, John, Phillip, Bartholonew, Matthew, Thomas, James, Simon, Judas, Judas (Iscariot).

(Office of the Seventy) Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed‍ other seventy‍ also, and sent them two‍ and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

(Council to New Members and Foundation of the New Church)

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers‍ and foreigners, but fellowcitizens‍ with the saints, and of the household‍ of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles‍ and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

(Purpose of this New Church) Ephesians 3:12 for the perfecting of the Saints, work of the ministry, edifying the body of Christ.

(Jesus Teaches Higher Law of Marriage)

Mark 10: 2 ¶And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his‍ wife? tempting him. 3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? 4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her‍ away. 5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 7 For this cause shall a man‍ leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. 9 What therefore God hath joined‍ together, let not man put asunder. 10 And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter. 11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. 12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

(An angel ministers to Cornelius—Peter, in a vision, is commanded to take the gospel to the Gentiles—The gospel is taught by witnesses—The Holy Ghost falls upon the Gentiles.)

Acts of The Apostles: 10:9-37 ¶On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop‍ to pray about the sixth hour:

 

[Awoon]

To establish a few suggestions for debate can we assume Jesus was a Jew?
Him being a Jew He would have been well educated in Jewish Law.
This is presented in the N.T. when Jesus was a boy and it was witnessed that He had great
knowlege of Jewish law.
"And Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit. News about Him spread through all the surrounding district and He began teaching in their synagogues and was praised by all."
Lk. 4:16-24.
In my reading/studying of the Christian bible I have yet to see anything specific that suggests He intended
to start a religion different than the Jewish faith.
There is no doubt Jesus had Jewish roots and echoed the plea of former prophets before Him
to repent and return to God. That would be parochial, to follow Jewish law.
" I have come only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matt. 15:24
It is indesputable that a new religion was born out his teaching, His life and His death & resurrection.
His intent was to bring people back to God and to draw all people to Himslef. John 12:32
His purpose was to reform the existing religious institution that would abolish the corruption
of the existing religious hierarchy.
Anyone can feel free to post here if they like unless the staff prohibits such.

Is the Holy Bible the only source for Jesus to claim the above about himself?

 

[truthofscripture]

True, and according to Acts of the Apostles it was just a tree.

Acts 10:39
And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

Acts 13:29
And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

In Acts 10:39 the actual Greek word translates into English as wood. In 13:29 it translates also into wood. Neither sentence used stauros. The general consensus was the traditional torture stake, which is basically a tree stripped of all branches, so tree isn't a bad translation and gives the sense of what they used.