Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[1robin]

You are saying we aren't here for the test.

Nope I said

There is no test for our existence.

I never said what you claim.

So what we are here for.

Well it sure is not a test for existence. Our existence is a logical imperative and an observable fact, not a question and certainly not the question.
I am not sure I would call the discovery of God a test but that is what we are here for. We are here to recognize and establish a connection with God that was severed long ago.

God knows already that we are all sinners and we can't be any more better, then why we are still here on earth.

So your God says you can't get any better. That is probably because the medice he gives for our sin sickness does not work. Mine says you can get better with his help, although that is not the requirement for heaven but a very important goal.

Just in few words, according to Islam each soul is created and will be tested which sound logic for me, but if you got a better reason for our existence on earth, then I'm all ears.

As I stated we are here to recognize and re-establish a connection with God. Sin is an indication of that need. We are sick and so we should be looking for a doctor. However the doctor you describe does not have the proper medicine and even dictates you must provide it in the form of works and ritual and even then you will not know if the medicine worked until it is too late. My God is so loving that he not only provides the medicine that we can't, he did so at great cost to himself, and it is so potent you are aware of its effects the moment it is first taken. He requires only faith not slavish devotion to ritual and ceremony.

 

[Falvlun]

That implies that he did so, and there is no evidence even hinting at that. He values love. Love cannot be given without freewill. Freewill does not exist without the ability to deny it's maker. He created Adam and made available every single action possible with the exception of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That tree may be symbolic but it was the only thing he could not do. He created Adam perfect and in a perfect world but allowed him the ability to rebel. Unfortunately he did. That in no way implies anything in your premise and so your conclusion is invalid. Creating a creature that has no choice but to love it's maker would be diabolical and pointless.

Why didn't God give all of us that opportunity? How is it freewill if he allowed Adam to make the choice for all of us? How is it fair and loving to punish all of us for the choice of Adam?

 

[1robin]

Why didn't God give all of us that opportunity? How is it freewill if he allowed Adam to make the choice for all of us? How is it fair and loving to punish all of us for the choice of Adam?

I sympathize with this contention and do not know if I can give an adequate explanation. The story of Adam and Eve may be symbolic in many details. It may very well be a archetype concept representative of our own lives and we all do indeed have the opportunity to choose and we all fail. We all can choose not to sin yet we all choose to do it anyway. The issue you brought up needs an explanation and I will look into it but it is in the end, irrelevant. We all choose rebellion and rejection of God at least for a time all on our own. We have all committed enough transgressions on our own that have nothing to do with Adam to justify our condemnation. The desirability or intuitiveness of a concept is completely independent of its reality. I believe the Bible, not because it illustrates what I want to be true but rather what is true. I have things that I can't understand and probably always will yet they are no less an obvious fact. The same can be said about scientific reality but we do not reject science because it does not operate the way we think it should. I will try and get a more comprehensive answer to your question soon.

 

[Thief]

Why didn't God give all of us that opportunity? How is it freewill if he allowed Adam to make the choice for all of us? How is it fair and loving to punish all of us for the choice of Adam?

The Genesis narrative is a depiction of our common situation.
In the acquisition of knowledge there is responsibility and consequence.

The outstanding feature is Adam...as the first to do so....
is faced with that realization.

Punishment?....not at all.
Just consequence.

 

[bnabernard]

IMO, when you fllow the events through, pre flood, the fall of a major angel taking Adam with him ans subsequently other angels bringing in the need for a judgement to be made on the spirit real or fallen host's of heaven whatever you would call them.
Then move post flood where we move from eight righteous souls and unnumbered spirits commonly called evil spirits.
Then in the near future a righteous era free from disobedience, then into yet anriod of choice when evil is released again with many chosing to follow the course of rebellion,
Then one final end when 'all' disobedience is done away with once and for all and everybody gets on with the type of living that was planned from the outset.
Imo every if or maybe has been covered in the final analysis, no more can a question be asked 'what if we' the answer will have been covered, and only those who insist that they can find a way different to Gods way will be the ones to get short shrift and that they will be, (hopefully) a minority not missed or grieved by anybody.

I figure you do have a period when it is equal for some ill fallen to repent, and I most certainly include Adam in this because of his mitigating circumstances, which reflect on mankind as a whole equaly.

bernard (hug)