Did Jesus say he was God???

[Shermana]

You're making a mistake. Let me make something clear: the entire passage that verse 10 is in is speaking of the Jewish People as a single unit. There is no individual representing the totality of the Jewish People. It simply refers to the Jewish People in the singular, as Scripture does in many instances, such as King Solomon's Song of Songs, where the Jewish People and God are considered husband and wife (God being the husband and the Children of Israel being His wife). It's about a loving relationship, and that's all.
Now, regarding the Mashiach, all he will do is become king over the Jewish People, reestablish the Jewish Homeland under Torah leadership, and perfect the world with the knowledge of God. He is NOT going to die for anybody's sins, and he is NOT going to bear the iniquity of the Jewish People. This Christian concept has no basis in Judaism whatsoever. God will end all suffering and death (together with the resurrection of the dead), and God will "slaughter" (figuratively) the evil inclination and subsequently end all sin. The literal meaning of "mashiach" means "anointed one." All Jewish kings and priests were "anointed" into God's service. Mashiach does NOT mean "savior," or any similar term. He will simply be annointed as king and represent the Jewish People as their sovereign under the laws of the Torah and under God.

So are you implying that verse 10 alone represents the Jewish people while every other verse of Chapter 53 specifically represents the Moshiach as an individual? If all of Chapter 53 is a metaphor for the fate of the Israelites as whole, what verses are used to define the Jewish position of the Moshiach?

 

[look3467]

Too bad that actually goes against what Jesus actually says.

Do you know what "Righteousness" means? Why is everyone judged according to their works?

A right standing with God we were not, until Jesus' righteousness, which is God's, was gifted us via His Son's sacrifice. The Ram in the bush was God's gift to Abraham sparing the life of His Son.

We (Issac) were sparred not by our own righteous works, but by God's righteous works in Jesus.

Now, Ill turn your question back to you.....do you know and understand what righteousness means?

Our works are judged as we live daily. What we sow that shall we reap. That judgment belongs only to us. The righteous judgment belonged to Jesus (He was judged not us), the one where our souls were lost to eternity. God in Jesus gave us His righteousness as a free gift to where now you and I don't have to work a leak of it. If we come to that knowledge and accepted in faith, then we shall at present begun our new life towards the eternity. Otherwise, if not, then we continue as is until we die, and then our works shall cease.

Understanding the awesomeness depths of Gods love is difficult when we see the futility of our own works which tend to condemn us at every turn. Where it not for the love of God, we'd never would have existed.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Shermana]

Righteousness means your obedience to the Will of God. Matthew 5:17-20 says specifically only those whose righteousness is greater than the Scribes and the Pharisees, who weren't necessarily evil but just misguided, will see the Kingdom.

Why do you suppose Paul constantly says who will enter the Kingdom and who will not?

I'm assuming you haven't read 1 John 3.

I assume you also think "Faith without works is dead" means that those with faith somehow produce works that others without faith don't?

 

[look3467]

Now, regarding the Mashiach, all he will do is become king over the Jewish People,>>>Yanni

I'm quoting you this verse:Isa 9:14 Therefore the LORD will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day.

If quote "...all he will do is become king over the Jewish People"...means that Jesus is head, where He was the tail.
Before, Israel was the head, meaning in rule, with power over Jesus (Tail) and in one day God cuts them both off!

Israel the head (Spiritually speaking)is cut off by Jesus' statement : Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

You see what that means for Israel?

Now lets look at the tail being cut off: who is the tail according to Israel? Isa 9:15 The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.

So did Jesus lie that He and God are one? Was He labeled a blasphemer for that?

Surely then, to Israel that was a lie, thus the tail.

Now the verse states that in one day head and tail were cut off.

Meaning that in one day Israel cuts off the tail (Jesus physically), and Jesus cuts off Israel spiritually.

Now the whole world has to go through Jesus as "King" both of the Jews and off the whole world.

Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Jesus asked for all of it not just part of it.

Therefore, Jesus is King!

Blessings, AJ

 

[Shermana]

Love neighbor as self and love enemies is in connection to four Greek words for love:

'Agape' love is love based on principle. We do not have to have warm brotherly love [philia'] for enemies. We do not have to have [storge] warm family love for enemies, and sexual love [eros] we do not have for enemies.

So 'biblical love' as defined at 1st Cor [13vs4-6] does not necessarily make us all brothers.
Also, the selfish distorted form of love described at 2nd Tim [3vs1-5,13]
is in sharp contrast to godly love and Jesus new commandment of John [13vs34,35].

Someone understands what the word "Agape" means, frubles for you. "Agape" does not mean "Unconditional Love".

 

[look3467]

Righteousness means your obedience to the Will of God. Matthew 5:17-20 says specifically only those whose righteousness is greater than the Scribes and the Pharisees, who weren't necessarily evil but just misguided, will see the Kingdom.>>>Shermana

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

"...except your righteousness"... Key word "Your" meaning the requirement is greater than what you can produce. (Like futility)

..."righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees"...meaning if they were considered more righteous than the common folk because they were priests, still could not meet the requirements to see to enter the kingdom.

Jesus has seen the Father, for He came from the Father and thus has seen the kingdom to tell about it. Read: Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

So what is it it about such a strict requirement of righteousness that mankind can not produce?
Reason? Because only God righteousness is required and none other. Did Jesus exercise God's righteouness? Absolutely, for He was King of obedience to the Father for us.

So now we have God's righteousness in Jesus as our own righteousness, enabling us to see the kingdom of God spiritually, that is when we do accept Jesus as the Son of God.

As noted: 1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

"Is of God" sees the kingdom!

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

Someone understands what the word "Agape" means, frubles for you. "Agape" does not mean "Unconditional Love".

What kind of love did Jesus demonstrate for His enemies....you know, the ones who accused Him of blasphemy and the ones who carried out the execution of punishment and the nailing to the cross?

He said of them: Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Is that loving His enemies? Agape!

Blessings, AJ

 

[Shermana]

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

"...except your righteousness"... Key word "Your" meaning the requirement is greater than what you can produce. (Like futility)

..."righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees"...meaning if they were considered more righteous than the common folk because they were priests, still could not meet the requirements to see to enter the kingdom.

Jesus has seen the Father, for He came from the Father and thus has seen the kingdom to tell about it. Read: Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

So what is it it about such a strict requirement of righteousness that mankind can not produce?
Reason? Because only God righteousness is required and none other. Did Jesus exercise God's righteouness? Absolutely, for He was King of obedience to the Father for us.

So now we have God's righteousness in Jesus as our own righteousness, enabling us to see the kingdom of God spiritually, that is when we do accept Jesus as the Son of God.

As noted: 1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

"Is of God" sees the kingdom!

Blessings, AJ

You are saying you are as righteous as Jesus merely for believing you are? That's the most I could make of your response.

greater than what you can produce. (Like futility)

There is nothing in the scripture which says you are incapable of being righteous. That is pure Roman/Lutheran doctrine. This belief ultimately throws out 99% of what is said about good behavior and replaces it with a few cherry picked verses that ultimately negate the other 99% in such context.

I personally believe in order to truly confess that Jesus Christ has arrived in the flesh, you have to actually acknowledge the "Christ" part as in the Messianic predictions, which include leading Israel (or the chosen remnant thereof) back to righteousness.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Since Pentecost, the 'Israel of God' [Gal 6v16] is not fleshly or national Israel,
but spiritual Israel. Jerusalem 'above' [Gal 4v26] is mother.....

Romans [2vs28,29] mentions Not by fleshly descent any longer.

1st Peter [2v9] mentions a holy nation [Exodus 19v6] in connection to a kingdom of priests. That priestly kingdom is now those of Revelation [5vs9,10; 20v6]

God spared not the natural branches... [Romans 11v21]
There is now neither Jew nor Greek..... [Gal. 3vs28,29]

So, God's holy nation [people] would be holy in a spiritual sense not by physical borders, because Christians live in all countries of earth and make up that spiritual Israel of God.

 

[Yanni]

I'm quoting you this verse:Isa 9:14 Therefore the LORD will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day.

If quote "...all he will do is become king over the Jewish People"...means that Jesus is head, where He was the tail.
Before, Israel was the head, meaning in rule, with power over Jesus (Tail) and in one day God cuts them both off!

Israel the head (Spiritually speaking)is cut off by Jesus' statement : Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

You see what that means for Israel?

Now lets look at the tail being cut off: who is the tail according to Israel? Isa 9:15 The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.

So did Jesus lie that He and God are one? Was He labeled a blasphemer for that?

Surely then, to Israel that was a lie, thus the tail.

Now the verse states that in one day head and tail were cut off.

Meaning that in one day Israel cuts off the tail (Jesus physically), and Jesus cuts off Israel spiritually.

Now the whole world has to go through Jesus as "King" both of the Jews and off the whole world.

Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Jesus asked for all of it not just part of it.

Therefore, Jesus is King!

Blessings, AJ

There are a few major problems with what you said, so I'll have to discredit everything you said. First of all, "no man cometh unto the Father but by me" is in direct violation of the fundamental Jewish doctrine that there is no mediator between God and humans. When we pray, God doesn't need someone below Him to carry our prayers to Him. He and He alone listens to all prayers. So what Jesus said was false and contradicted Judaism. Second, Jesus saying that he and the Father are one also contradicts Jewish doctrine, specifically contradicting the verse that Jews must say everyday, twice a day, once in the morning, and once at night, which is also the first verse a child hears when he is first born and the last verse a Jew utters from his lips right before he dies; this is our "pledge of allegiance," if you will; our declaration of God's Oneness and Uniqueness, and our acceptance of the absolute sovereignty of God: "Shema Yisrael, HaShem Elokeinu, HaShem Echad;" "Hear, O Israel, HaShem is our God, HaShem, the One and Only." There are no parts to God and God cannot be compared to anything or anyone, and none is like Him in any way whatsoever. There is no trinity; there is no literal "son." The trinity is a purely pagan concept that has no basis whatsoever in Judaism, the religion that Christianity is based on. Jewish doctrine did not change with Jesus. He violated various commandments, which automatically excludes someone from being a messenger of God (or a prophet).

By the way, Jesus cannot possibly become king over Israel because he supposedly didn't have a human father, and tribal affiliation follows the father, not the mother. Therefore, Jesus was NOT a descendent of David and Solomon through a father, and therefore is excluded from the possibility of becoming king, since he failed to fulfill even the first of the 6 authentic messianic criteria.

If you would have the Oral Torah (which explains the Written Torah), you would know that the "head" and "tail" of that verse refers to the greater and lesser leaders of the people, and the major and minor members of society; it does NOT refer to the messiah, or Jesus, or...

 

[Muffled]

"God is not a man..."

Numbers 23:19

King James Bible
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

God is a spirit. However a spirit can enter a man and reside there. However the spirit of God is not the same as the spirit of man.

The fact remains that this verse does not eliminate the possibility of God incarnate, since it is only referring to the essence of God not what He can do.

Just because Jews have a tradition (of men) that says God can't incarnate doesn't make it so.

 

[Muffled]

No, the official charge was claiming to be the Son of God. When they accuse him of making himself to be "a god" (not "God" as most Translations state, since there is no article there), the actual charge is making himself EQUAL to God, which he denies. This is why he responds with John 10;34. He also says "The Father is Greater than I" to show how not equal they are.

That would be an incorrect translation because it does not agree with the context of Jesus referring to Himself as the "I Am."

I do not see that in the text and Jesus says that He and the Father are one which is equality.

He responds with John 10:34 as a legal argument not necessarily a revelation of reality. In any event Jesus is saying they don't have a legal leg to stand on when they say He is blaspheming God. However you seem to interpret the law much differently from the way God sees it.

He is both equal and uneqaul because He is both physical man and God.

This is not a traditional Jewsih term. I am only speculating, but my guess is they heard people refer to Jesus as the Son of God. Although He at times accepts this appelation His first choice is to refer to Himself as one with the Father.

 

[Muffled]

I believe that as God (John 1:1), Jesus possesses the full nature of the only true God (Colossians 1:19; 2:9), yet I DO NOT believe that Jesus is the Father. You are correct when you mentioned how the Son is distinct from the Father. Scripture makes a clear distinction between the person of the Father and the person of the Son. I believe there is but ONE God, that exists in 3-distinct persons.

“God is not triplex (1+1+1)—He is triune (1X1X1), and he has revealed Himself fully in the Person of our Lord, Jesus Christ (Col. 2:9, John 14:9).” —Christian Research Institute
​

Do you believe that a human son is less human than his father?

These statements are contradictory. Jesus says that He and the Father are one. Even if you don't believe me at least believe Jesus.

It is not provable from scripture that the three members of the Trinity are unique persons. There are distinctions but they are not distintcions of person.
However that is an argument for the Trinity post which can be found on Biblical Debates.

This is an impossibility. What God is really saying through Paul is that God is fully available in Jesus. That is because God never sees Himself as divided into what is in the body and what is not in the body. He always views Himself as one entity.

This is comparing apples to oranges.

 

[downtown1441]

Reading the Gnostic gospels explains that although Jesus may have claimed that he was in fact divine, he never says that no one else is divine in the same way he is.

That's one of the main points of Gnostic Christianity, that everyone has the Kingdom of Heaven within them, and that everyone is just as divine as Jesus was. Although his words have been translated through about four different languages and two-thousand years so what exactly He "meant" can seem to be a bit fuzzy, even in the New Testament, Jesus never makes any exclusive claim to divinity.

So in the same way Jesus was holy, holiness is within each of us as well.

 

[Yanni]

God is a spirit. However a spirit can enter a man and reside there. However the spirit of God is not the same as the spirit of man.

The fact remains that this verse does not eliminate the possibility of God incarnate, since it is only referring to the essence of God not what He can do.

Just because Jews have a tradition (of men) that says God can't incarnate doesn't make it so.

Just because Jews have a tradition (directly from God at Mount Sinai) that God WON'T incarnate Himself doesn't mean that Christians can all of a sudden decide what God will or will not do/or can do.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

That would be an incorrect translation because it does not agree with the context of Jesus referring to Himself as the "I Am."

Because John 8:58, contextually, is not a confirmation by the biblical Yeshua stating he is the god that sent him.

 

[Breathe]

This is not a traditional Jewsih term.

I have been told the Torah uses "son" occasionally within the Hebrew text, and "son" is used in many cases as "servant".

I await confirmation from one our Jewish members though.

 

[Yanni]

I have been told the Torah uses "son" occasionally within the Hebrew text, and "son" is used in many cases as "servant".

I await confirmation from one our Jewish members though.

That is correct. There are many instances in the Torah where God refers to the Jewish People, as a whole, as His firstborn son. Many Christians and others have too often, incorrectly taken Scripture to be literal. I should point out that the Hebrew word "Mashiach," or in English "Messiah" literally means "anointed one." Every Jewish king was called a messiah. So, just because Scripture says the word "messiah" doesn't mean that it is referring to THE messiah. Many kings and prophets were called by God as His son, and they were born of human parents. We are God's children by virtue of His having created us. Never in Jewish doctrine was there a concept of God literally having a son, nor will there ever be such a doctrine in Judaism. Christianity invented the trinity concept to back up their doctrines about Jesus, because according to Jewish doctrine and its messianic criteria, Jesus did not fulfill any one of the 6 messianic criteria, and there is no concept whatsoever in Judaism of a "second coming." The Messiah is not supposed to die before fulfilling his mission.

 

[Shermana]

That would be an incorrect translation because it does not agree with the context of Jesus referring to Himself as the "I Am."

I do not see that in the text and Jesus says that He and the Father are one which is equality.

He responds with John 10:34 as a legal argument not necessarily a revelation of reality. In any event Jesus is saying they don't have a legal leg to stand on when they say He is blaspheming God. However you seem to interpret the law much differently from the way God sees it.

He is both equal and uneqaul because He is both physical man and God.

This is not a traditional Jewsih term. I am only speculating, but my guess is they heard people refer to Jesus as the Son of God. Although He at times accepts this appelation His first choice is to refer to Himself as one with the Father.

Once again, Jesus never refers to himself as "The I Am". There is no such thing as "The" I am, it is simply a name, and in this context, it is nothing close. In 8:24, he says "Unless you believe I am he", if he meant to say "Unless you believe I am I am", he would have said "I am I am". John 8:58, many translations correclt ystate "Before Abraham existed, I was", since the word "Am" can be used for multiple tenses. The context of 8:58 is clearly Jesus stating his pre-existence, as opposed to the name "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh" which was given AS A NAME in Exodus 3:14. As well, the name "I am who I am" is subject to debate, Theodotion's Septuagint writes it as "I will be as I will be".

If Jesus meant to call himself I am, he would have said "Unless you believe that I am I am". But as it stands, the statement looks like this in such logic: "Unless you believe God"./

I appreciate your assessment that you think I interpret the Law differently than how G-d sees it, did He tell you personally? I can say with great confidence that He probably views my interpretation of the Law far more approvingly than yours. How's that? Why don't you ask him directly if you disagree. In fact, I'd bet $10,000 he probably calls you among "The least".

And your interpretation of John 10:34 is the standard Trinitarian dodge of thinking that Jesus was trying to change the subject and context, that would make him a LIAR.

Your idea of being "Both equal and unequal" is truly a testament to Trinitarian logic!

 

[Shermana]

God is a spirit. However a spirit can enter a man and reside there. However the spirit of God is not the same as the spirit of man.

The fact remains that this verse does not eliminate the possibility of God incarnate, since it is only referring to the essence of God not what He can do.

Just because Jews have a tradition (of men) that says God can't incarnate doesn't make it so.

So you think the verse should say "God is not a man....except one time"