Did Jesus say he was God???

[idav]

The key phrase should have been "I dont find all scripture to be true"

Much of it is true and I do like the positive aspects with the religion

I just happen to feel much of it is fiction from unknown authors building a theology

Arguing from the perspective that man wrote the bible. Fascinating.

 

[InChrist]

I don't believe the case of atheist is not that they think the bible is not true just not the abosolute truth(gods word, divine inspired) some as my self believe they are narrations of events written by persons other then those who were present at the time these events occurred and it's their motives and integrity that's in question.

If I believed what you believe about the Bible, that it is just a bunch of narratives written by people who were not actually present or inspired by God and their motives or integrity were in question then I would reject all of it. I certainly would not think some of it was true. But I believe the all scriptures are the Word of God.

In my many discussions with atheists I have only seen them quote scriptures in an attempt to discredit the Bible, not because they really believe any of what they are quoting is true.

 

[outhouse]

But I believe the all scriptures are the Word of God.

so what we had is that there was alot of collections of early writings regarding the christian doctrine, some people decided to put these writings in their own collections and that made it to bishops who were also collecters of what matched their perspective and the different bishops had different perspectives.

So if god didnt write these early works and we know man did, did god whisper in each mans ear?? and why did god stop teaching us as our culture evolved foward? why does he not whisper now? and if he did why would we believe someone who claimed this?

 

[idav]

In my many discussions with atheists I have only seen them quote scriptures in an attempt to discredit the Bible, not because they really believe any of what they are quoting is true.

In this thread it is an attempt to show that even from the authors perspective, Jesus never said he was God.

 

[InChrist]

What I can say in repect to Christ based on biblical readings is that he is above all the other prophets in that he seemed to convene mind to mind rather then lucid visions of angels or burning bushes. his knowledge and wisdom did come from something higher not supernatural but perhaps as Spinoza says it "God or Nature" I too hold Jesus in a high regard but as a mortal man who had profound knowledge that showed how we should live to achieve enternal blessedness

Anyone can formulate their own ideas about Christ as you have and are free to do, but whether those ideas are true is a different matter. The scriptures present Him as Someone entirely different, as the Creator God in the flesh.

So anyway,from your perspective, how do you believe Christ showed us how to live to achieve eternal blessedness?

 

[outhouse]

In this thread it is an attempt to show that even from the authors perspective, Jesus never said he was God.

As a mortal man who was a teacher of ancient hebrews religion, he would not blaspheme Yahweh. Its clear in the gospels he did not think himself a god or they would have made this very clear and highligted it had he been admitting such a thing.

 

[InChrist]

so what we had is that there was alot of collections of early writings regarding the christian doctrine, some people decided to put these writings in their own collections and that made it to bishops who were also collecters of what matched their perspective and the different bishops had different perspectives.

So if god didnt write these early works and we know man did, did god whisper in each mans ear?? and why did god stop teaching us as our culture evolved foward? why does he not whisper now? and if he did why would we believe someone who claimed this?

According the the Bible the gospel message and faith has been delivered once and for all. Jesus who is also called the Word of God became flesh. God has provided all that is necessary to teach anyone in our culture today.


Instead of accepting and parroting off atheistic ideas and remarks concerning the scriptures have you ever sought to investigate for yourself or spent and time seeking God. Have you ever sincerely asked God to speak to you through the scriptures or even asked Him if they are truly His word?

 

[InChrist]

As a mortal man who was a teacher of ancient hebrews religion, he would not blaspheme Yahweh. Its clear in the gospels he did not think himself a god or they would have made this very clear and highligted it had he been admitting such a thing.

Then why did the religious Jewish leaders want to kill Jesus for blasphemy?

The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”John 10:33

 

[InChrist]

Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son’s name, If you know? Proverbs 30:4


No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:13-17


And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. John 17:5

 

[idav]

Then why did the religious Jewish leaders want to kill Jesus for blasphemy?

The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”John 10:33

John 10:34, “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?”

 

[Mcshane22]

Anyone can formulate their own ideas about Christ as you have and are free to do, but whether those ideas are true is a different matter. The scriptures present Him as Someone entirely different, as the Creator God in the flesh.

So anyway,from your perspective, how do you believe Christ showed us how to live to achieve eternal blessedness?

I'll explain this in a simple metaphor. If you have a child and that child runs into the road. When you discipline him and he ask why what he did wrong you would not tell him because Jesus says so and he is God, rather you would explain to him the dangers that exist and that you don't want to see him get hurt.
Same as obtaining from sex before marriage, instead of saying it's against the bible rather explain the reasons of std's and unwanted pregnancies.

 

[InChrist]

I'll explain this in a simple metaphor. If you have a child and that child runs into the road. When you discipline him and he ask why what he did wrong you would not tell him because Jesus says so and he is God, rather you would explain to him the dangers that exist and that you don't want to see him get hurt.
Same as obtaining from sex before marriage, instead of saying it's against the bible rather explain the reasons of std's and unwanted pregnancies.

And how does this answer the question concerning your idea of Christ showing how to achieve eternal blessedness?

 

[idav]

Same as obtaining from sex before marriage, instead of saying it's against the bible rather explain the reasons of std's and unwanted pregnancies.

Sure rationality can work but it could take a bit of time to get the points across. A simple "you will burn in hell" is fast and effective.

 

[outhouse]

According the the Bible the gospel message and faith has been delivered once and for all.

lovely, written after the fact

 

[idav]

As a mortal man who was a teacher of ancient hebrews religion, he would not blaspheme Yahweh. Its clear in the gospels he did not think himself a god or they would have made this very clear and highligted it had he been admitting such a thing.

I have to agree especially if the authors knew anything about Judaism.

 

[outhouse]

Jesus who is also called the Word of God became flesh

By the authors of J, a group of 3 different authors or 3 authors, who never met or knew Yeshua who lived in a joahannine community. Playing to a new semi christian audience seperating itself from the culture of judaism and a roman audience

 

[outhouse]

I have to agree especially if the authors knew anything about Judaism.

yeshuas divinity grew over time and in the gospels. the earliest synoptic gospels didnt portray Yeshua as a equal to yawheh. Some of the divinity was even edited in like the ending of mark that is a known forgery.


When christians can prove whether the ressurrection was physical and not spiritual, il be all ears.

 

[Mcshane22]

A knowledge of nature can be very important if one tribe builds their village in the flood plain and another builds there's on a slightly more elevated location. When the flood waters come it will wipe out one but not the one that was higher. Now we say both tribes are ignorant of this deliema and it was just by chance luck they built it on high ground. They would believe there god saved them so they must be the chosen ones and their god the chosen god. Now if Jesus said build your village on the higher ground and you will have long life. The villagers would say Jesus is Divine and that is why his message saved us. Or they can say Jesus has a basic understanding of nature and of flood plains that they were ignorant of. This is the way I view Jesus he had a profound wisdom of Nature and the better we can understand our environment and our role in it. As opposed of being alien to it we can reach a state of Blessedness the way God or nature intended us to live.

 

[Shermana]

Anyone can formulate their own ideas about Christ as you have and are free to do, but whether those ideas are true is a different matter. The scriptures present Him as Someone entirely different, as the Creator God in the flesh.

So anyway,from your perspective, how do you believe Christ showed us how to live to achieve eternal blessedness?

It doesn't say he's the Creator G-d, it says what it says in Wisdom of Solomon (Which was Canonical to ancient Jews, just not Rabbinical Jews and Protestants), that the Logos was the Co-creator and second in command, the first created being, main builder of the Father, who was the CEO and Architect. It says all things were made THROUGH the Logos. Philo's Logos Theology, which John's intended audience was acquainted with, spells this out in more detail.

http://www.socinian.org/philo.html

Agent of Creation Philo believed that the Logos is "the man of God" or the shadow of God which was used as an instrument of creation and a pattern of all creation: when talking about Bezabel (Exod. 31:2), Philo says:

Now, Bezabel is being interpreted as man's God in his shadow. But the shadow of God is his Logos, which he used like an instrument when he was making the world. And this shadow, and, as it were, model, is the archetype of other things. For as God is himself the model of that image which he [Moses] has now called a shadow, so also that image is the model of other things, as he showed when he commenced giving the law to the Israelites, and said, 'And God made man according to the image of God,' (Gen. 1:26) as the image was modelled according to God, and as man was modelled according to the image, which thus received the power and character of the model.
​

Philo's model of creation comes from Plato's Timaeus, but the direct agent of creation is not God himself (described in Plato as Demiurge, Maker, Artificer), but the Logos. The Logos converted unqualified, unshaped preexistent matter, which Philo described as "destitute of arrangement, of quality, of animation, of distinctive character and full of disorder and confusion," into four primordial elements:

Taking Philo's views which were so prominent among the Anatolian Jewish community that John was writing to, John makes much more sense.

 

[Mcshane22]

It is my Opinion that at the time of christ there were two sects of his followers those who received his message and lived by it , and those who created a cult around the messanger that is Jesus. The latter established a religion that is the religious institution we see today.and even these have their disputes created more sects. The first ones who just took Jesus's message lived by his teaching and his universal morals lived not rich lives but fulfilled where as the latter ones became the same thing that Jesus was unpleased with that being the oligarchy that was the Jewish temple.