icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
Not Sure how you work things out in your mind, but I have no problem worshipping Gods Image (Jesus)... For Jesus is the vissable Image of the invissable God.
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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
Not Sure how you work things out in your mind, but I have no problem worshipping Gods Image (Jesus)... For Jesus is the vissable Image of the invissable God.
icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
I believe you have watered down your understanding of the word Worship. However, we are to honor(value) the Son the same as we honor the Father. We see this in the Revelation of Jesus at Rev 5:12-14 (also look at Is 42:8 and John 5:23)
Shermana
Heretic
Perhaps you noticed that I asked also what you think "Worship" means, so if you want to tell me that my definition is 'watered down' and disagree with my scriptural example, you might want to explain what you think it means. I agree that "worship" includes attributing a "value", but the text plainly says that King David was "Worshiped". It means a physical display of bowing. IF you disagree, feel free to explain why in detail. I agree to an exent that to honor the Son is to also honor the Father, but probably not the same way you see it.
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icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
The Simple answer would be Worship is Love with deep affection with prayer and mediation in a spiritual mannor (putting ones Hopes and dreams into the one or thing that is worshipped)
To add to this we are to Worship with inner submission with all that we know to be true. Everyone can bow down, but some will have inner Submission and some will not. Look at John 18:6 for example... When Jesus said "I AM" they all fell to the ground because of his majesty, but they didnt have inner submission and artested him anyways...
I looked back and what text are to talking about?
Shermana
Heretic
Please explain why my definition is "Watered down" when it's exactly what Strong's says and it is how it is used almost all the time in scripture. To pray is not the same as to worship. That's the main problem many people have with it, they think "Worship" means to pray to. It doesn't. Prayer and meditation are an aspect perhaps of the elements involved in Worship, but by itself, the Hebrew and Greek simply mean to physically bow down, anything beyond that is fluff. The word "Worship" may have different meanings in English, it originally meant to be worthy of BEING bowed or kneeled down to, hence why Judges were addressed as "Your worship" ,which meant "Your worship-worthiness" or rather "Your worthiness", as the word "worship" is probably related to "worth" in the sense of "Higher worth". Hence, to have "worship" in its original usage of English meant something very similar to its Greek and Hebrew usage. Your idea is the "watered down" version from the original.
That's the difference between "Worshiping in True Spirit". As for the falling back, that has nothing to do with him saying "I am" in response to his question, that had to do with them realizing this was the lgendary miracle worker they had heard about. Similar to falling at hearing a great Magician announce his presence. Again, the name is not "I am", it is "I shall be", I hope to not have to address this yet again. Jesus does not mean "I am the I am" when he responds "I am" to a question of who you are.
Do you think I am saying I am God right now with this sentence?
1 Chronicles 29:20. Many modern translations (dishonestly) translate "Worship" as something other than "Worship" as if there's some way of distinguishing the use of the word because it would pose problems in their Trinitarian Theologies.
Only the KJV and Douay Rheims are consistent. The others know they have a problem here and hope to fool the reader into thinking there's an actual distinction in terms.
http://niv.scripturetext.com/1_chronicles/29.htm
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Muffled
Jesus in me
Ex 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Any image we have of Jesus most likely falls into this ctegory.
icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
If you Read Rev 5:13-14 you will see that falling to ones knees or to bow is not 100% accurate. The deffinition in my bible that is hooked to the Strongs says to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence. So if you believe "Worship" is just bowing or kneeling (without inner submission) thats what I called "Watered down". For one day even the demons will be on the knees before God, but they will not be worshipping as you and me would be doing.
What you believe is not paying attention to what Jesus said. They all knew who they were about to arrest. There was a whole plot and silver exchanged for it. Jesus says "I AM" and they drew back and fell to the ground (your deffinition of worship by the way) But one cannot Worship without the reverence and mindset needed to engage into something they do not believe in. All the Jews believed Jesus was calling himself "Equal to" God already because of what he was saying earlier at John 5:18. To add to that Jesus says at John 13:18 that when Judas betrays him that when it happens you will all know that "I AM". Later Thomas sees Jesus (jn 20:28) and Gods word confirms Jesus as God and Lord, the Great "I AM" before Moses (Ex3:14-15) And to make things even clearer we read at 1 Cor 10:1-4 that Jesus is the LORD that followed the Jews as "The ROCK", whom God says there is no other Rock (Is 44:6-8)
I dont know, are Jewish people trying to stone you for claiming yourself to be God as Jesus was? First you claim "Worship" isnt what it means today in the English, then you take a Jewish Phrase of God and apply English meaning all over it...
If you dont think Worship carries a inner submission of some kind, then we will never agree...
in Love,
tom
icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
I did not Make Jesus the Image of God, God did. 2 Cor 4:4-6 says Jesus is the Image of God and is Lord. Now i do not have statues or photos of Jesus. However, Jesus in my heart and in my mind is the Image of God in whom i worship day and night. Do not be decieved by Satan as Paul says and see that to look at God we would see before us Jesus who is the Image of God. Thomas stood before Jesus and claimed as i do today, that Jesus is My Lord and My God. Not only is Jesus the Image of God, he is the one who created all things to give us eyes to see his image. Not only is Jesus the offspring of David, He is foundation of David and all creation.
So to clear things up, do i have statues or pictures of jesus around my house that I worship, no. But do I worship the Image of Jesus in my Body, Soul, and Spirit that is see in the bible and know in my Relationship with, YES.
Shermana
Heretic
Let me be more clear. It can also involve falling prostrate. The point is that its a totally physical sign, nothing more nothing less. It can be kneeling, or "Bowing", which involves full prostration as in "falling down". To "fall down and worship" means "To fall down and lie prostrate".
Well Strong's is not 100% accurate necessarily.
Let me repeat, it can also involve being prostrate on the ground.
I disagree, if they are on their knees when they don't have to be, they are in fact worshiping.
Because you said so?
They had only heard of him.
I am always amazed when people think Jesus can say "I am" without any regard to contextual grammar. I am not saying I am god, do you think I am saying I am god with this statement? Why would Jesus be? The point is, he simply said "I am he" in that sense. And guess what: The name really isn't "I am", it's "I shall be", this itself is a huge problem as has been mentioned numerous times on this thread.
The point was that they fell back upon seeing this legendary miracle worker, not at seeing God. Just like how one would fall back at seeing an angel.
Incorrect. You can still "worship" a king without loving the king. You still had to "worship" a Judge who was known as "His worship" when you entered the Court room in England.
Only someone who failed math and sociology would think that equal means "The same exact thing".
Only someone who failed English would think that saying a statement is the same thing as announcing a perceived name. And again, the name is "I shall be". Do you think I am saying I am God in this sentence? If someone asked me "Are you Shermana" and I said "Why yes I am, my good man", have I now stated I am god? No. Neither did Jesus. Does grammar mean anything to your beliefs?
Ah, this is the issue of John 20:28 which I've decidedly, uncontestedly proven is most likely a later interpolation that directly clashes with the endings of Matthew and Luke. It appears the author was unfamiliar with their endings.
So again, the actual name of God is "I shall be", nowhere is "Eyheh" ever really used as "Am", but always "Will be" or "have been".
As for there being no other rock, Apparently Peter was made Rock of the Church. Is Peter god too? Or can we conclude "Rock" can mean different things. Just like how God is savior, yet he sends saviors to Israel.
Do you think claiming to be god is the only type of blasphemy one would be stoned for? How about claiming to be his son? Considering that's what it says the actual charge is! Maybe that's why no one will stone me for saying "I am" perhaps?
Why would anyone be kneeling if there's not some kind of submission. You can hate the king but you're still kneeling unless you outright defy his authority. The definition is purely about accepting authority and showing submission to the rule and accepting the sovereignty.
In contempt to the Trinity,
Shermana
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F0uad
Well-Known Member
Some logic..
Premise 1: Humans are imperfect.
Premise 2: Jesus was a human.
Premise 3: Jesus was imperfect.
Conclusion: Jesus was not God and no i am not talking about being sinless or a sinner.
Also the logical fallacy that Jesus(p) was both makes no sense and raises more problems then it fixes trust me.
Premise 1: Humans are imperfect.
Premise 2: Jesus was a human.
Premise 3: Jesus was imperfect.
Conclusion: Jesus was not God and no i am not talking about being sinless or a sinner.
Also the logical fallacy that Jesus(p) was both makes no sense and raises more problems then it fixes trust me.
icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
I believe our problem is the "Inner submission" part. You believe Worship is nothing more than a bodily act, while I believe it also means inner subbmition of respect, reverence, and supplication. Something the Devil doesnt have towards God or we wouldnt be in this mess.
Not sure what you mean. If you dont believe the Strongs, what are you believing? Another source would be helpfull to look at.
I believe Every Knee will bow to God at some point. Either in Victory or Defeat. But to say the ones defeated by God and are about to be sent to Hell are Worshipping is very wrong to me. I would like to clairify your other source since you dont believe the Strongs is accutate.
At John 18:6 Jesus says "I AM". immediately after he said this they all "Fell to the ground". To over look this is unwise. Falling to the ground instantly throughout scripture always shows majesty. All bibles agree and say the moment he said "I AM" and they even repeat it in John 18:6 to make sure we dont miss it, that something sagnifigant just happend. (Not because I said so, because Gods word is pointing something out here)
When I mentioned 1 Cor 10: 1-5, you agrue that others are called Rocks. But you miss the whole point that Jesus is the one they all believe was Jehovah God. For God is the one who was the cloud, for God was the one who parted the sea, for God gave them the spiritual mana, for God gave them water from a rock. And that one was Christ. (The I AM of Ex 3:14 means something) Think about it, in your understanding the I AM in Ex 3:14 dies with that verse, meaning nothing in the future. Jesus however says "I AM" and everyone Falls to the gound and you dont connect this? 1 Cor 10:1-5 says Jesus is the one the Jews all thought was the Great "I AM" and you just over look it saying others are called Rocks too?...
(john 18:6) By this time everyone knew who and what Jesus was. To say the all "drew back and Fell to the Ground" all at the same time with not one exception and to blow this off is not wise...
What did God mean when he said to Moses, " tell them that I AM sent you "? What kind of grammer are you using here? Also, do you think this verse dies here and is never used again? Specialy by Jesus who is the one who said I AM to Moses?
What ever you think is being said at Ex 3:14-15 (I AM or I Shall Be), Jesus said the Greek equivalant to that and they all Fell to the Ground. Your point here doesnt matter, thats another debate...
If you want to believe that "everyone drew back and Fell to the Ground" at the same time with no one else saying, Come on guys, really.... Then keep doing so, but know that I warned you of something different was going on.
It would not be "true" worship if you only go through the motions without true Reverence and True Repect.
Men have always tried to be like gods, specialy Judges...
1=1 2=2 3=3 God=God
if I was this rude to you, then I am sorry.
Heres what I believe you are missing. Jesus Created all things, you did not. Jesus is the Image of God, you are not. Jesus Expresses the Father in every way in a body, you do not. Jesus has passages in the bible about him calling him God, you do not. Every knee will bow before Jesus and the Father not to you. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, First and Last you are not. Jesus is Jehovah our Rightousness, you are not. Jesus speaks as One with the Father, you do not. So when Jesus says believe me that "I AM" or "I have been" and Paul writes 1 Cor 10:1-5 not to be ignorant of who he is, I would hope that you would see that your statement of I am's are not in the same context as Jesus's. For what every you think the Father is, Jesus must also be expressing it 100% in his image.
Im not going to argue the English words used, but what ever you believe, Jesus used the same words in Greek. You are getting sidetracted with side issues. The Septuagent (Hebrew translated into Greek) has Jesus using the same words that were spoken at Ex 3:14. If you get a hold of a Septuagint along with a Greek to English NT you will see they are the same words Jesus used at John 18:6.
Jesus is referred as the Rock of the Old Testament that Followed them. Peter is never said to be the Rock that followed the Jews in the Old Testament... You keep sidetracking with issues that are not even close to the same. Also the Church is built upon the Rock Jesus NOT the so called Rock Peter? Context of Matt 16:18 is that "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. " is the Rock the Church is built upon... (Although I have heard Chatholics call Peter a Rock from time to time) Take the wording out, Jesus is the one that all Jews claimed was YHWH or Jehovah as the one who followed them night and day and parted the sea...
Gods word, written by John says Jesus was equal to God wether you believe it or not... (john 5:18) Was it a mistake for John to write this down and for us to read today?
To say you can Worship without liking the Worshipped being is very odd. The Greek word Worship carrys a good reverence and respect withing the inner being of a person. You earlier said you didnt agree with the Strongs 100%, Im sure your belief has something to do with it, but we havent got there yet...
Why are you disgusted by the Trinity?
Shermana
Heretic
What do you suppose "Worship in Spirit and truth" means? Why would one worship without spirit and truth?
What do you mean I don't believe the Strong's? Are you looking at the Greek only and not the Hebrew?
Even the Demons "Tremble". Do you believe everyone who worships God avoids going to hell? Where does it say this? Did not the Pharisees worship God?
Not all bibles dubiously capitalize it like some of the more unethical ones. Again, the name is not even "I AM" to begin with. Indeed, it shows majesty. What part about Majesty do you think necessarily equates to Divinity?
If you're going to completely ignore what I said about Ex 3:14 not being "I am" but "I shall be as I shall be", why should I listen to anything else you say? Your whole point rests upon a misinterpretation. As for the "Rock", your point is nothing but a presumption.
What's not wise is to assume majesty = divinity.
If you're denying that the traditional interpretation has been wrongly translated, then i ask you to find a single example where Eyheh actually means "I am" as opposed to "I have been" or is translated as "I have been" and please prove why all the Jews are wrong when they say that the name is actually "I will be as I will be". It is clearly said to be as such in Theodotion's and Aquila's Septuagints. Apparently it was modified by the 4th century to "I am" in the Greek. It would be unwise to continue to press that it's "I am" without bothering to read what others say about it. Do you want some links about the "I shall be" translations? Do you think I'm all alone on this?
What do you mean my point doesn't matter? Of course it matters. It matters so much that you dismiss it. And again, you associate majesty with divinity necessarily. There's no reason to assume they fell back because they were in the presence of God. "A god" or a miracle worker would be just as impressive.
Your warning is as meaningless to me as a Warning to give up the Mosaic Law. I warn YOU to not associate Divinity with Majesty. Now if you want to settle this through a Spiritual bet, I have a formula for that....
Please define TRUE reverence and TRUE respect and the difference between false versions. In detail.
I guess you think Jesus was lying when he quoted Psalm 82:6 in John 10:34?
?
Your warnings are not rude?
All things were created THROUGH Jesus. I have discussed this and Philo's Logos Theology extensively in the thread. In Proverbs 8 and Wisdom of Solomon 7-9 this is laid out quite clearly: Wisdom is what the World was created THROUGH. Whether I created all things or not has nothing to do with my arguments about the Trinity. I'd call that kind of reply if you're insinuating such very rude.
Why do you keep saying "You do not"? Do you think this somehow negates me from being able to argue against your position?
He is not the Alpha and Omega, this is a common result of the "Speaker Confusion issue" Of Revelation 1:8 and 22:13. It's an Angel bearing a message from the Father who says he's Alpha and Omega. First and Last is not an exclusive title. Jesus is the Firstborn of Creation and the Last Adam, thus first and Last. But Alpha and Omega is a title only the Father ever uses for himself. Those who say Jesus says this about himself have either not read or have misread Rev 1:8 and 22:13 or are using the KJV of 1:11 which is interpolated. Why would they have to interpolate it anyway?
No he's not.
Seriously, what is with the "You do not", are you trying to say that because I'm not God that my argument against the Trinity is void? As for being "one with the Father", do you know what that means? See John 17:21. Are the Disciples 'one with God" in the same way or did the grammar change?
"And that rock was Christ" does not mean that God was the "Rock" they were drinking spiritually from. That was the power of God, His Angel sent ahead of them to guide them and direct them. Even Justin Martyr calls Jesus the "Angel of God'.
Jesus is the Representative of the Father, no question there.
The Septuagints are different on the matter. What we have is LATER Septuagints that use this, the earlier ones didn't. Philo used "The one" instead. I hope you understand this concept. Are you even aware of who Aquila and Thoedotion were? Why are their Septuagints wrong? Telling me that I'm getting sidetracked does not work, the fact is that your entire point rests on a faulty and possibly edited Greek translation that Jews do not even necessarily agree with on how to render the Hebrew. Why are the Septuagints different between Aquila and the Latin versions? Personally I think they changed it because of this exact concept. So don't confuse "Getting sidetracked" with "having a point that proves your foundation completely wrong".
Shermana
Heretic
The "Rock" was the Angel preparing the way ahead of them. There's no reason to presume this or your answer from the text. Paul is not saying the Rock is the same as the Cloud that followed them necessarily.
Right, but Paul isn;'t necessarily saying that God is the "RocK" that followed Israel either. The context of 1 Cor 10 doesn't necessarily equate to what you're saying, despite being a Trinitarian favorite. The fact that Paul uses "God" as a separate being in the next sentence who was not pleased with them should give you a clue.
Nice excuse, but my points are very much on track. They just happen to prove your foundation wrong so you try calling this "sidetracking".
So what did Peter get called Peter for in the first place then?
No, Paul is not necessarily saying the Rock is the same as the Cloud following them.
Gods word, written by John says Jesus was equal to God wether you believe it or not... (john 5:18) Was it a mistake for John to write this down and for us to read today?
Again, are you even going with the Hebrew definition or just the wording he gives for the Greek use of the term? Strong's is not always 100% correct, and my belief DOES have something to do with it, and MANY people agree that Strong's is loaded with incorrect, audience-deferring definitions that don't give the true meaning. Strong's is not even the best Lexicon on the matter.But it's useful for what it's worth. For example, their definition of "Godhead" includes a blatant misinterpretation based on widespread (mis)use of the term.
Not just because of the twisting and cherry picking and out of context verses and bad grammar or the attitudes of most Trinitarians, but it represents a cornerstone of the heretical heathen gentile abomination which masquerades as "Christianity" and is basically idolatry and has been a major reason why most Jews reject the idea of Jesus as Savior.
Shermana
Heretic
I forgot to address this one.
You have to reconcile that with 14:28 the Father is "Greater than I am", and before you say its about authority, the same word is used when Jesus says "No one born of woman is greater than John the Baptist".
As for "Equal", why don't you explain why being Son of God would mean being "Equal" to God anyway?
And unless you failed math and sociology, "Equal" does not necessarily mean the "Exact same thing".
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icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
Lets go back... Arent you the one that says one can Worship without liking the subject worshipped? How can one worship in spirit and truth and hate the subject being worshipped? You need to ask yourself a question: Is worship just an act of kneeling and falling to the ground to powers of authority or is there much more going on...
You said you didnt agree with the strongs 100%... Anyways Reverence is still part of the Hebrew word for Worship. Adding to this, Jesus uses the Greek word for worship at Matt 4:10 and equates it to the Hebrew Word for worship.
I believe that some will Worship God in vein. Jesus says that the Pharisees parade around in prayer and fasting in public, but its all in vein. So Im sure that if one truley worships God in spirit and truth, one would be saved. Why would you believe otherwise...?
What I did was looked at my Septuagent and the Greek NT and the wording is the same in the Greek if you look at it. Caps or Not, Gods word says that in reaction to Jesus saying "I AM", they drew back and fell to the ground. For me to link this up to Jesus saying "I am the eternal one" or I am the one before Moses at the burning bush is not far fetched for at 1 Cor 10:1-5 it tells us that he was and not to be ignorant of that fact. Also 1 John 1:1-4 says that Jesus was the Eternal Word of Life. Not that theres a lack of passages, for 2 Col 2:9 says all fullness of Divinity is in Jesus.
Again, lets forget English for a second. Go directly to the Greek Septuagent of the Hebrew Scriptures. The words spoken by Jesus were, "ego eimi" and the Sepuagent of the Hebrew to Greek has the same words at Ex 3:14. I am not ignoring what you are saying, just that we should by pass the English and see that there is a Greek to Greek comparison in that we have the Septuagent, which is the Greek that Jesus spoke and that was around durring and before Jesus' Birth.
Jesus is both Majesty and Divinity, to ignore that is unwise. I dont see why you are arguing against Jesus being both? im trying to Lift Jesus up and you seem to be dragging him back down. Im not sure why, but you seem to deny Jesus in something... You are focused upon words and i think have missed the big picture. Take 1 Cor 10:1-5 for example. Forget that it even calls Jesus the Rock, what is the passage saying? Who does every Jew alive today believe was following them by cloud day and night? Who do they think parted the sea? Yet we are told it was Jesus. (Dont you see whats being said here?)
We dont even need to go there. All we need to know is did Jesus say in the Greek what God would have said in the Greek at Ex 3:14. The Sepuagent shows this to be true. If you think about it, Jesus read from what we call the Old Testament and spoke in the Greek. he was reading the Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures that we call the Sepuagent. So when he said "Ego eimi" and they drew back and fell to the ground should be some kind of indication of what Jesus meant. To say everyone drew back and fell to the ground just because they saw a Miricle worker is another way to deny Jesus to me... Remember that this is Gods book with his words in them, he put that there for a reason.
It matters in the English only, but if you look at the Greek and the Septuagent, the Greek words match up. So however you translate in the English doesnt matter because what Jesus said was in the Greek, "Ego Eimi" and not I have been or i shall prove to be or I AM...
Gods word says that right after Jesus said "Ego Eimi" that they drew back and fell to the ground. For a moment Christ unveiled His Majesty and his statement "Ego Eimi" literally threw the soldiers to the ground. To say the soldiers and others just drew back and fell to the ground on their own merit as to honoring a Miricle worker is very bizzar for someone looking to arrest Jesus and is unconsistant with all other parts of the bible where the soldiers and Pharisees show no such respect towards Jesus.
You know we are talking about Jesus, right? Jesus is both Divinity and Majesty, why would you argue otherwise...?
i do not understand your thoughts on what you are trying to say? If the Jews knew what we know now, they would have really tried to stone him even more. (Jesus was Creator, Rock, image of God, exactly Like the Father, ect...)
True Worship = A person kneeling with love and deep affection with prayer and meditation in a spiritual mannor
Not Worship - one who kneels with hate or no respect and no affection. This would be faking it...
God says no one was with him when he created. He alone, by his Hands created. Since Jesus is the Image of God, I picture the hand of Jesus Creating.
Wisdom is a personification of the virtue of wisdom for the purpose of impact. Wisdom was brought forth (Not Created) to play a role in creation. (Pro 3:19-20) To say there was a time wisdom of God never existed is verry dangerous and odd...
Anyone can say, I am Eternal, but only The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit can back it up... The Bible doesnt talk about you as being the Eternal Word of God...
You are denying Jesus. The Book is called, "The Revelation of Jesus". You act as if the Father and Son speek in and out on top of one another... Jesus is Alpha and Omega or he isnt lifted to the Highest and is not exactly expressing the Father 100%... Everything the Father is, Jesus is too, or he is not expressing him 100% in a body (Image)
I dont see why you argue that the Father holds titles that the son doesnt... Jesus is called Jehovah, so why say the one called Jehovah is not holding certain titles? How do you view the Father when he is called "First and Last"? You are creating multiple Firsts and Lasts for bizzare reasons I dont know... To See Jesus is to see the Father, yet you see something totaly different...
Why would you say that? So Jesus isnt expressing the Father fully in your belief? That not all the Fullness of Diety is in Jesus, just most of it?
i totaly disagree with you... Jesus is everything the Father is and Holds all titles of Authority.
You need to read Jer 23:5-6. Jesus is Jehovah our Righteousness
There are different uses of that word. Jesus is one with the Father in a way much different than we can be.
icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
i disagree. Anyways, the Angel of the Lord got more repect than you give Jesus today... The Angel of the Lord was treated Exactly like God Almighty and talked as he was God and seen as he was God. You look to Jesus as less than the OT prophets saw this angel. (Do you not see this?)
You do not understand my belief. Philipians says Jesus was in the Form of God and "Emptied" himself to become a man. As a man he has a God, His Father, but he is eternal and uncreated before becomming a man. (GOD)
Peter means Rock, but he is not the Rock that our faith is foundated upon. Jesus is the Rock(conerstone) that cause many to stumble. Read Isaiah 8:13-15 to see that Jehovah is the Rock that makes many stumble. 1 Peter 2 shows the Rock to be Jesus not Peter. As you see Jesus as Savior and the Father as Savior I see Peters name meaning Rock. However, Peter never claimed to exist before his birth on earth...
I see no other way to read that.
If I asume you are a Jehovahs Witness would I be right?
Shermana
Heretic
There's a difference between worshiping in Spirit and truth. And yes, Worship is just the act of kneeling. Just like applauding is just the act of clapping your hands. A curteousy applause is not the same as a standing ovation.
"Reverence" is a sub definition that is not part of the actual physical definition. The physical definition is "To bow down to", forced reverence is possible. What do you think "reverence" means?
If you believe that some will "Worship in vain" then you have proven my point.
Okay, so you have no concept of the history of the Septuagint versions and you ignored what I said. Notice that "Word" and "Logos" don't mean the same thing necessarily. If you want to ignore the thing on Philo's Logos Theology, that's fine. Also, "Fullness of Divinity" doesn't mean that Jesus was God himself. The word "Divinity" is misunderstood just like "Deity". Why do some translations render Angels as "Divine beings"?
If you're not going to accept the fact that "The Septuagint" is a later version of what we see in earlier editions like with Theodotion and Aquila, why should I listen to anything you have to say?
It doesn't say that it was Jesus. You ignored what I said. It's unwise to ignore what I say. I would say you should also pray and ask if I'm right, to ignore that suggestion would be unwise. I also suggest you understand the meaning of the word "Divinity" and understand that angels are in fact called "gods" in all the versions of the Septuagint.
Again, if you ignore what I say about the Septuagint being different versions, and there being versions that say "I shall be" and "The one" (Philo), I have no reason to address what you're saying. I'll let Jesus decide which of us "denies" him.
It seems you are insistent on completely ignoring what I said about the Septuagint and you seem to think there is "The Septuagint", and that it's not one version out of many, one that probably had great Trinitarian influence. If you can prove that the Septuagint of the 4th century was the same as that of Theodotion and Aquila, I'll concede. Good luck.
I find your own interpretations bizarre, I don't see why it's inconsistent. You must think they were the same soldiers or something.
Huh? Where did I say otherwise? Probably your flawed understanding of what "Divinity" means. Again, Angels have "Divinity". When Jesus says "Ye are gods", that itself is a way of saying "You all have divinity".
Huh? I'm saying that saying you're the Son of God (which was his actual charge) was all the reason they'd need at the time.
Ah, so your definition trumps the plain scholarly definition because you said so. "True worship" doesn't involve prayer and meditation necessarily. It just involves true submission to authority.
That would be "forced worship" but not "fake worship" necessarily. "True worship" is not necssarily the opposite of "forced worship". To worship "In SPirit and Truth" means to accept the authority willfully and gladly.
Verses please.
Then you're not reading Proverbs 8 and Wisdom of Solomon 7-9 as I said, and I won't entertain reasons against Wisdom of Solomon.
You're right. And "ETernal Word (Logos) of God" in ancient Jewish anatolian theology (where John was from) clearly indicated that the Logos was not God Himself but a separate being, the first created being.
Thanks for the assertion. Again, I'll let him decide if I'm denying him. Not you.
Keep the outright dishonesty up, I greatly appreciate it. There are some versions that call it the Revelation of Jesus Christ. To say it's the ONLY title reveals your agenda, ignorance, or both.
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Shermana
Heretic
Book of Revelation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The mere fact that Jesus receives revelation should quash your opinion in one swoop.
Again, it doesn't say that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, only the Father says this. Those who cite 22:13 have clearly not read the entire passage and are only using it in a cherry picked selection of verses. It's an Angel who is bearing the Father's message that says this. Jesus is the Image and representative of God. That's why the Father is well pleased with him.
Jesus is not called Jehovah. This is a common misconception based on the use of the word "LORD", it also says that David is "Lord", so it's presumptious to assume that "Lord" necessarily means "LORD" especially in cases where the text doesn't match up with the Hebrew in quotes.
You have yet to prove that Jesus is called Jehovah.
First and the Last is not an exclusive title. It's a title that Jesus can share as well. I said Jesus is the "Firstborn of Creation" and the "Last Adam". You have no reply to this apparently.
Jesus represents everything the Father wills, that's what he means by if you've seen me you've seen the Father. I don't see anything wrong with saying that First and Last is not an exclusive title, perhaps you'd like to explain what "Last Adam" means and "Firstborn of Creation" means.
Why would I do that? Because it's correct and not heretical like the Trinitarian translations? "Fullness of Deity" means fullness of godhood. What do you think Jesus meant when he said "Ye are gods"? Did I not ask that here?
Good for you. Perhaps you'd like to explain why Jesus doesn't know the day or hour and why he has to receive revelation from God if he's "everything" the Father is. Also note in Sirach that God himself is called "king of king of kings".
Feel free to show Jer 23:5-6 in any way or shape says that Jesus is YHWH. Such dishonesty I greatly appreciate in these debates. I think you're having translation issues.
Many translations render it like this, leaving out the key word "Is". Even then, use of this verse represents a total lack of understanding of how Hebrew names work. That's why very few Trinitarian cites dare to use this verse, usually you can tell total ignorance of Hebrew concepts by those that do. They did not have a concept of a comma or titles being used in such a way, so the only excuse to omit the "Is" in that name is totally dishonest bias. I Should make a whole thread on this.
The name should be "The LORD IS our Righteousness". To say that it neccessarily does not contain the "is" is flat out dishonesty. And the translations that omit it are Trinitarian renditions.
Even if it didn't have the "IS" there, you'd have to be completely dishonest to assume that "YHWH our righteousness" is the same thing as being named "Yahweh" if you knew anything about Hebrew names. By this logic, Obadiah is also Yah incarnated.
In John 17:21 he says "AS" we are one. The word "As" means "Just like". This has been discussed and argued ad nauseum in this thread. Including every single one of your other contentions.
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icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
The Bible says Jesus "Emptied Himself" and that even the angels he created were greater than him as a man. (who is still a man ressurrected and mediating today) Because Jesus emptied himself is not a weakness, its the strength of him.
Jesus made himself the lowest as a man.
What does the "Son of Man" mean?
Hence my belief in the Trinity
Shermana
Heretic
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...917-does-jeremiah-23-5-6-say.html#post2958168
Made a thread on Jeremiah 23:5-6. Feel free to post there.
Made a thread on Jeremiah 23:5-6. Feel free to post there.