Did Jesus say he was God???

[Muffled]

Muffled said:



Okay, that doesn't really explain how you derive that from what I said according to what I said. Not even by your own understanding would this make sense of what I said.



Okay, and I believe "oneness" simply means being in harmony and unison in thought and deed. There's a reason you can't find a good analogy, the concept you present is not tenable.



As if there's evidence for yours?



Okay, so you believe you are God in the flesh, glad we have that established.



So you believe that all believers become God in the flesh, got it. You want to talk about "standard errors" that "have no evidence" some more?

No I believe that Jesus prayed for it to happen but it tends to be rare in my estimation. I believe my spiritual growth led to this point but there were many years when it was not so. However I believe that as soon as I gave my life to Jesus He was already at work in me to change me.

So if I say i have one apple it means that it is in harmony and unison of thought? Or if I agree with someone I am that peson?

 

[The Real Milk Man]

Jesus said, (John 14:12, "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater works than these, because I return to my Father." But, Jesus didn't say when. Perhaps when perfection comes, 1 Corinthians 13:10.

In the love of Christ, sincerely, The Real Milk Man.

 

[Shermana]

Jesus said, (John 14:12, "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater works than these, because I return to my Father." But, Jesus didn't say when. Perhaps when perfection comes, 1 Corinthians 13:10.

In the love of Christ, sincerely, The Real Milk Man.

How about when Paul and Peter raised someone from the dead?

 

[look3467]

How about when Paul and Peter raised someone from the dead?

You do realize that there are two distinct sides to raising people from the dead?
1.Physical side....of which only God as Jesus could do, and or empowered to the apostles only.

2. The spiritual side......you see, every living soul is considered spiritually dead with respect to gaining salvation of one's soul.
So technically, if one rescues some soul from the dead (spiritually dead) by reason of enlightenment of the One who can effect a change in status, may constitute having raised a spiritually dead soul to life.

"Greater works" is not raising people from the physical death, but the spiritual death status.

And that is evident by the growth of believers all over the world. Those are the "greater works".

I am a believer raised from the dead (spiritual death) to life everlasting. Though, I live in the flesh, I have new life because I have accepted God's gift.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Shermana]

You do realize that "empowered to the apostles only" is completely baseless and not what scripture says, along with your other thing about greater works referring to the "Spiritual death", right?

What makes you think you have this "new life" you speak of? Because of your interpretation of what it says?

 

[F0uad]

Its not only Peter and Paul there are much more people in the Bible that are raised from the Death this argument fails really hard.

 

[look3467]

You do realize that "empowered to the apostles only" is completely baseless and not what scripture says, along with your other thing about greater works referring to the "Spiritual death", right?

What makes you think you have this "new life" you speak of? Because of your interpretation of what it says?

The Apostle Paul exercised that gift:

Act 20:9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.

Act 20:10 And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.

When a person comes to accept the knowledge of God's love and God's offer of salvation, that person becomes born again as a "New creature".

A new creation spiritually, to a life ever lasting.

God has our back when we witness in His behalf.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Muffled]

How about when Paul and Peter raised someone from the dead?

I believe raising someone from the dead had been done before Jesus did it. I believe as such it does not serve to prove the divinity of Jesus because the previous people were not divine.

I believe however raising people from the dead can't be done without God doing it even if it appears otherwise because a person is making the pronouncement.

 

[1robin]

Its not only Peter and Paul there are much more people in the Bible that are raised from the Death this argument fails really hard.

No one in the Bible ressurected someone. They did what is referred to as ressusitated a person. IOW the people they brought back to life died again. Jesus is the only example (and is called the first fruits of) actual ressurection. He never died again and is an example of what happens to us eventually after the judgement. I am not sure what you were trying to illustrate by this but I thought I would offer some clarification.

 

[F0uad]

No one in the Bible ressurected someone. They did what is referred to as ressusitated a person. IOW the people they brought back to life died again. Jesus is the only example (and is called the first fruits of) actual ressurection. He never died again and is an example of what happens to us eventually after the judgement. I am not sure what you were trying to illustrate by this but I thought I would offer some clarification.

I am not sure how resuscitated is much more different then being resurrected also when people die they are resurrected not resuscitated since they were not in a coma or such a thing.

1. 1 Kings Elijah resurrected the son of Zarephath's widow.
2. 2 Kings 4:35 Elisha resurrected the son of the great Shunammite woman (This can be considered to be resuscitated)
3. Kings 13:21 A dead man comes back to life when he touches Elisha's bones.
4. Luke 7:13-15 Jesus resurrects the widow's son at Nain.
5. Matthew 9:25, Mark 5:42, Luke 8:55 Jesus raises Jairus' daughter from the dead.

Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead, Many saints resurrected at Jesus' crucifixion, Peter raises a female disciple named Tabitha from the dead, Paul raises Eutychus from the dead, A strong possibility that Paul was raised from the dead.

My point was that its not special at all if someone is resurrected or not it proves nothing you should have seen the previous poster before commenting.

 

[1robin]

I am not sure how resuscitated is much more different then being resurrected also when people die they are resurrected not resuscitated since they were not in a coma or such a thing.

1. 1 Kings Elijah resurrected the son of Zarephath's widow.
2. 2 Kings 4:35 Elisha resurrected the son of the great Shunammite woman (This can be considered to be resuscitated)
3. Kings 13:21 A dead man comes back to life when he touches Elisha's bones.
4. Luke 7:13-15 Jesus resurrects the widow's son at Nain.
5. Matthew 9:25, Mark 5:42, Luke 8:55 Jesus raises Jairus' daughter from the dead.
Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead, Many saints resurrected at Jesus' crucifixion, Peter raises a female disciple named Tabitha from the dead, Paul raises Eutychus from the dead, A strong possibility that Paul was raised from the dead.
My point was that it’s not special at all if someone is resurrected or not it proves nothing you should have seen the previous poster before commenting.

I am not contending with the fact that others were raised from death. The word resuscitated is a word used in tradition not scripture. The Bible (I do not believe) points the difference out specifically, further than the unique details of Christ's ressurection that no other ressurection has. I meant that the people raised in the Bible with the exception of Jesus all died again. That means they were not resurrected as Jesus was. He never died again. Jesus is an example (a first fruit) of what happens after the judgment. The others are simple examples of God's power but are not resurrections in the same way. Everyone you listed died again, was not given a resurrection (perfect and non corruptible) body, was not glorified, and did not go to heaven at that point so is not the same as end time resurrection. Don't get hung up on the words I used, they are only given for clarification or to distinguish. There is no parallel to Christ's resurrection in the Bible. It is unique.

 

[F0uad]

I am not contending with the fact that others were raised from death. The word resuscitated is a word used in tradition not scripture. The Bible (I do not believe) points the difference out specifically, further than the unique details of Christ's ressurection that no other ressurection has. I meant that the people raised in the Bible with the exception of Jesus all died again. That means they were not resurrected as Jesus was. He never died again. Jesus is an example (a first fruit) of what happens after the judgment. The others are simple examples of God's power but are not resurrections in the same way. Everyone you listed died again, was not given a resurrection (perfect and non corruptible) body, was not glorified, and did not go to heaven at that point so is not the same as end time resurrection. Don't get hung up on the words I used, they are only given for clarification or to distinguish. There is no parallel to Christ's resurrection in the Bible. It is unique.

Thanks R0bin for your reply well i am fully aware that Jesus's(pbuh) "crucifixion" is in more detail and is seen differently by a Christian audience however if there was a crucifixion it would proof nothing except that Jesus(pbuh) could have died and god simply cant. Now i am not making the claim that god cannot die or the son of god cannot die or whatever i was simply telling the other guy that because Jesus(pbuh) was "resurrected'' by hes god that it doesn't mean that he is god by any standards.

 

[1robin]

Thanks R0bin for your reply well i am fully aware that Jesus's(pbuh) "crucifixion" is in more detail and is seen differently by a Christian audience however if there was a crucifixion it would proof nothing except that Jesus(pbuh) could have died and god simply cant. Now i am not making the claim that god cannot die or the son of god cannot die or whatever i was simply telling the other guy that because Jesus(pbuh) was "resurrected'' by he’s god that it doesn't mean that he is god by any standards.

I will simply add one additional thing to this topic and then let you carry on. Whether Jesus was God or not if in fact he died and God raised him back from death then whatever message he taught must be validated by that fact. If God had raised Muhammad back from death I would be far less inclined to question his claims for instance. It is like a stamp of approval on his message but I will agree it does not sufficiently indicate that Jesus was God. I have little interest in resolving this conflict but do comment on how I see it being resolved by others. I am not sure if there is any merit in the effort but find it compelling anyway.
By the way if you want to see one of the best debates I have seen lately:
[youtube]snyTcQIX1xY[/youtube]
Was Paul The Founder Of Christianity? - Debate - Shabir Ally V.S. Dr. V. George Shillington - YouTube
It is Shabir Ally and (new to me) Dr Shillington on Paul and early Christianity.

I have never seen two debaters as respectfull and knowledgable at the same debate. Dr Shillington is extremely polite and professional as well as competant and this is Shabir's best debate in my experience.

 

[F0uad]

I will simply add one additional thing to this topic and then let you carry on. Whether Jesus was God or not if in fact he died and God raised him back from death then whatever message he taught must be validated by that fact. If God had raised Muhammad back from death I would be far less inclined to question his claims for instance. It is like a stamp of approval on his message but I will agree it does not sufficiently indicate that Jesus was God. I have little interest in resolving this conflict but do comment on how I see it being resolved by others. I am not sure if there is any merit in the effort but find it compelling anyway.
By the way if you want to see one of the best debates I have seen lately:
[youtube]snyTcQIX1xY[/youtube]
Was Paul The Founder Of Christianity? - Debate - Shabir Ally V.S. Dr. V. George Shillington - YouTube
It is Shabir Ally and (new to me) Dr Shillington on Paul and early Christianity.

I have never seen two debaters as respectfull and knowledgable at the same debate. Dr Shillington is extremely polite and professional as well as competant and this is Shabir's best debate in my experience.

Thanks for the video and your reply again.
I have seen better videos myself to be honest i am not really that interested in debates about Muslims and Christians anymore since they have a common belief in many aspects. I think the debate has switched to Atheists and Theists nowadays.

 

[1robin]

Thanks for the video and your reply again.
I have seen better videos myself to be honest i am not really that interested in debates about Muslims and Christians anymore since they have a common belief in many aspects. I think the debate has switched to Atheists and Theists nowadays.

That debate was not the most informative. It was however extremely civil and I liked Dr Shellingtons tone and cadence and as you know I always enjoy Shabir. I like all debates as long as the debators are competant. There are a few Chrisitian and Muslim speakers that emberass me to watch. I wonder why we do not see more Hindus, Bahai, or others on the debate circuit.

 

[Muffled]

Thanks R0bin for your reply well i am fully aware that Jesus's(pbuh) "crucifixion" is in more detail and is seen differently by a Christian audience however if there was a crucifixion it would proof nothing except that Jesus(pbuh) could have died and god simply cant. Now i am not making the claim that god cannot die or the son of god cannot die or whatever i was simply telling the other guy that because Jesus(pbuh) was "resurrected'' by hes god that it doesn't mean that he is god by any standards.

I believe this is not quite correct. God is a spirit and as such never dies but Jesus is the Spirit of God in a body and the body can die.

However one could argue that Jesus having called Himself God would not have had God's approval to be resurrected but since He is God in the flesh He is one with God's purposes and that is indicated by His resurrection.

 

[Muffled]

That debate was not the most informative. It was however extremely civil and I liked Dr Shellingtons tone and cadence and as you know I always enjoy Shabir. I like all debates as long as the debators are competant. There are a few Chrisitian and Muslim speakers that emberass me to watch. I wonder why we do not see more Hindus, Bahai, or others on the debate circuit.

I am a big fan of Ravi Zacharias. He is a Christian from India.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1WVJiRlK40&feature=player_detailpage

 

[1robin]

I am a big fan of Ravi Zacharias. He is a Christian from India.

[youtube]I1WVJiRlK40[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1WVJiRlK40&feature=player_detailpage

Well I am glad to be able to agree 10000000% with you. Ravi is the greatest philosopher that ever lived in my opinion and his pedegree and biography has no equal. I have listen to him for years and years. However he does few debates and that was what me and F0uad have been discussing.

 

[1robin]

I believe this is not quite correct. God is a spirit and as such never dies but Jesus is the Spirit of God in a body and the body can die.
However one could argue that Jesus having called Himself God would not have had God's approval to be resurrected but since He is God in the flesh He is one with God's purposes and that is indicated by His resurrection.

I did not respond because I do not consider the issue worth fighting. I must do exactly the same thing whether Jesus be God or a divinely inspired man. You however are correct as that is the prevailing understanding. Jesus had a divine soul that could not cease to exist but was separated from the father for a short time. His body being mortal and not divine died and he was given the very first resurrected body in history. Jesus soul never ceased to exist but experienced the second death (separation) so that we may not have to. There is no conflict with this idea and Jesus being a member of the trinity but I do not argue the issue much.

 

[idav]

Jesus doesn't really deny being god, after having said I and the father are one. However instead of affirming it he proceeded to quote the OT as saying "ye are gods". He was speaking of a connection with god for everyone not a personal divine thing that belongs to him. It all belongs to the father.