Did Jesus say he was God???

[Searching For Truth]

With all respect i was discussing if this was a example on how Jesus(pbuh) was not all-knowing with R0bin. I think you made a good point however the verse does gives us a reason on why there were no fruits it says "Because it was not the season for figs'' but i appreciate your reply nevertheless.

Well in my opinion you will make no gain using this example. Any child in that day in that area would have known that. Are you trying to say Jesus was stupid? I can't believe Jesus was stupid or all of the disciples that where with him were stupid and couldn't tell Jesus that the season was not yet.

On the other hand If I wanted to argue the fact that Jesus was not all knowing I would simply use the verse that Jesus himself says he is not all knowing, and then if they want to argue that Jesus is a liar then so be it. There man/god is not only perishable but he is a liar as well. In my opinion.

 

[F0uad]

Well in my opinion you will make no gain using this example. Any child in that day in that area would have known that. Are you trying to say Jesus was stupid? I can't believe Jesus was stupid or all of the disciples that where with him were stupid and couldn't tell Jesus that the season was not yet.

On the other hand If I wanted to argue the fact that Jesus was not all knowing I would simply use the verse that Jesus himself says he is not all knowing, and then if they want to argue that Jesus is a liar then so be it. There man/god is not only perishable but he is a liar as well. In my opinion.

Have you any evidence that Jesus(pbuh) knew it? Not knowing something doesn't make you stupid nor will i ever call him that, if you actually take a look at my posts above i already adressed this.
The verse itself does say "" Because"" it was not the time for season of figs its not me saying it, sorry?

I don't belief Jesus(pbuh) is a liar sorry.

 

[Searching For Truth]

Have you any evidence that Jesus(pbuh) knew it? Not knowing something doesn't make you stupid nor will i ever call him that, if you actually take a look at my posts above i already adressed this.
The verse itself does say "" Because"" it was not the time for season of figs its not me saying it, sorry?

I don't belief Jesus(pbuh) is a liar sorry.

What evidence do you have that Jesus himself did not know why there were no figs there on? Does the scripture say that? I would say at best you are assuming that Jesus lack knowledge and was ignorant to the fact of the time of season. As to say Jesus doesn't know the difference in summer and winter or spring and fall. None of which are knowledge of the divine nature. It is common knowledge to men of the land. So what exactly is your argument? Apparently someone knows why the tree had no figs. According to Matthew he knows, Why didn't he tell Jesus? Or are we to believe he acquired this information after the event?

20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!

They know exactly what kind of tree it is; but lack knowledge as to when it produces fruit?

21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree...

Not only do what? Kill trees? cant any John Doe take an ax to a tree and kill it?

but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

What is Jesus describing here? Super natural strength? They can become super hero's? No he is expressing that man has dominion over the earth. In my opinion. I could be wrong!

My biggest curiosity is still, why argue what you cannot prove yourself to try and say that someone else lacks knowledge, when that person them self said they lack knowledge. Where is your burden for proof? Just like the man never said he was God he also did say he lack knowledge; but you prefer to argue on an issue that you lack knowledge on yourself? Show me in the bible where it says that Jesus didn't know why himself that there was no figs on the tree. I believe he knew exactly why.

 

[AdityaMookerjee]

It seems as though you agree that the story of the fig tree is symbolic and literal. It was a literal tree but the event was symbolic of Israel's fruitlessness. God loves agricultural parables because they were relatable to an agricultural community. If I have judged correctly in this what is it that you are contending with my original statement? Shalom

I don't think emotion is why people love God. A great sage said, that the sex one sees in a woman, and the mystery why a yellow metal, can give rise to currency, as a medium of exchange, is why people don't want to see God. The more a man is in bondage, the more he tries to find the truth, not of freedom, but why man is in bondage. It appears, I knew that the great sage was the Hindu God Vishnu to me. There have to be reasons why man is seen as unpleasant to other men, and it appears that the reasons are what is perceived as greed, by the self, and not by others, and how one knows we react to it, and seem not to be able to do anything about it.

 

[Muffled]

I don't think emotion is why people love God. A great sage said, that the sex one sees in a woman, and the mystery why a yellow metal, can give rise to currency, as a medium of exchange, is why people don't want to see God. The more a man is in bondage, the more he tries to find the truth, not of freedom, but why man is in bondage. It appears, I knew that the great sage was the Hindu God Vishnu to me. There have to be reasons why man is seen as unpleasant to other men, and it appears that the reasons are what is perceived as greed, by the self, and not by others, and how one knows we react to it, and seem not to be able to do anything about it.

I believe basicly you are saying that a person brought up to believe something tends to defend his belief becasue he feelshe will be bereft of a valuable good otherwise.
I am more like Paul, I gladly give up all my chersihed beliefs to get to know Jesus better.

However wouldn't you be willing to listen to a better sage if you found one? My understanding is that Vishnu is just a Hindi name for God although there is no direct proof that he is the same God as the God of Abraham.

 

[F0uad]

What evidence do you have that Jesus himself did not know why there were no figs there on? Does the scripture say that? I would say at best you are assuming that Jesus lack knowledge and was ignorant to the fact of the time of season. As to say Jesus doesn't know the difference in summer and winter or spring and fall. None of which are knowledge of the divine nature. It is common knowledge to men of the land. So what exactly is your argument? Apparently someone knows why the tree had no figs. According to Matthew he knows, Why didn't he tell Jesus? Or are we to believe he acquired this information after the event?

Well why approach a tree when your hungry when you know its not the season of figs in the first place, why even mention that he is hungry if he didn't search for figs on it? Moreover if you read the Chapter as it is, its more reasonable to assume he didn't know the time of figs if he did know it there was no reason to curse it or even to approach it. You on the other-hand like R0bin have now to prove or make a more convincing argument that Jesus(pbuh) did know that the tree had no figs.

20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!

They know exactly what kind of tree it is; but lack knowledge as to when it produces fruit?

What? What is your point i totally didn't get you here.

21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree
but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done....

Not only do what? Kill trees? cant any John Doe take an ax to a tree and kill it?

Well he can but as the verse says ''ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree''. i am not sure how those verses support your argument at all i see no connection. Moreover you forgot verses 22 if i had to give those two verses a interpretation i would just repeat the verse and highlight the area:

“Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

Now let me ask you something don't you find it odd that the verse about ''Because it was not the season of figs'' is taken out of Matthew? Doesn't that look like trying to hide Jesus(pbuh) limitations on being not all-knowing?

What is Jesus describing here? Super natural strength? They can become super hero's? No he is expressing that man has dominion over the earth. In my opinion. I could be wrong!

Thats your interpretation but if you read verse 22 its clear what he was trying to point out.

My biggest curiosity is still, why argue what you cannot prove yourself to try and say that someone else lacks knowledge, when that person them self said they lack knowledge. Where is your burden for proof? Just like the man never said he was God he also did say he lack knowledge; but you prefer to argue on an issue that you lack knowledge on yourself? Show me in the bible where it says that Jesus didn't know why himself that there was no figs on the tree. I believe he knew exactly why.

The problem here is what is more reasonable to belief in when reading the text this has nothing to do with me or you. Again Robin was bringing forth a interpretation that was hold by the majority of biblical scholars ''according to R0bin'' but that interpretation is flawed.

R0bin and i both agree that Jesus(pbuh) was not all-knowing so we are both going into the details of this event and see which interpretation is the correct one.

 

[Searching For Truth]

we are both going into the details of this event and see which interpretation is the correct one.

I gave an interpretation that I tend to agree with, if any. What is yours? Why in your understanding did Jesus curse the fig tree that it withered and died?

 

[F0uad]

I gave an interpretation that I tend to agree with, if any. What is yours? Why in your understanding did Jesus curse the fig tree that it withered and died?

I really haven't made myself clear?

Well if the ''story'' is true in the gospel i would belief what the exact verses say that Jesus(pbuh) was hungry and cursed the tree for not having figs (or at-least not being the season for figs).
But as i said i mentioned this verse earlier on when i was discussing if Jesus(pbuh) was all-knowing or not with Muzzled then Robin picked up the discussion and now you did.

 

[Searching For Truth]

I really haven't made myself clear?

Well if the ''story'' is true in the gospel i would belief what the exact verses say that Jesus(pbuh) was hungry and cursed the tree for not having figs (or at-least not being the season for figs).
But as i said i mentioned this verse earlier on when i was discussing if Jesus(pbuh) was all-knowing or not with Muzzled then Robin picked up the discussion and now you did.

So you believe that in a fit of rage and frustration Jesus a perfect prophet of Allah(God) cursed a tree that it withered and died?

 

[F0uad]

So you believe that in a fit of rage and frustration Jesus a perfect prophet of Allah(God) cursed a tree that it withered and died?

Well if the story in the gospel is true then yes but i have no idea why i should accept the gospel in the first place since it was not written by any person he personally knew or authorized to write about him. In my understanding if it was true it would be god doing it since he is giving the power to Jesus(pbuh) to ''destroy'' the tree.

I don't see any problem at all and if you think that is a problem for a Muslim. What about the Christian ideology that Jesus(pbuh) is god. If that is the case then Jesus(pbuh) ordered Moses(pbuh) to kill certain people and the list continues..

 

[Searching For Truth]

Well if the story in the gospel is true then yes but i have no idea why i should accept the gospel in the first place since it was not written by any person he personally knew or authorized to write about him. In my understanding if it was true it would be god doing it since he is giving the power to Jesus(pbuh) to ''destroy'' the tree.

I don't see any problem at all and if you think that is a problem for a Muslim. What about the Christian ideology that Jesus(pbuh) is god. If that is the case then Jesus(pbuh) ordered Moses(pbuh) to kill certain people and the list continues..

If you don't believe the story to even be true then we can start a thread about what the tooth fairy does with all the teeth she collects, and go on forever with no progress. If you are debating this event with an open mind willing to accept a possibility that the story is literal and then you search for a understanding of what is meant by the event then that would be one thing. If you don't believe the story or the book or the author then what progress is to be made? Like I said lets start a thread on what the tooth fairy does with all the teeth.

In your reference to god would that be Allah(God) of Abraham and Isaac? If it is true, Allah(God) gave the power to curse the tree so Allah(God) actually cursed the tree that it would wither and die?

I am fine with that if that is what you believe; but there has to be explanation and this explanation has to lead to Love. So now the burden is on us to figure out what is the meaning of this action that we read about.

If you want to deny the bible in full and the story then be straight forward and do just that, appose to having people spend time and energy trying to help you to understand what it is they understand.Whether you agree or not If you are not open to acceptance then you are wasting everyone's time including yourself.

Lets talk about something productive appose to things you do not even believe.

 

[F0uad]

If you don't believe the story to even be true then we can start a thread about what the tooth fairy does with all the teeth she collects, and go on forever with no progress. If you are debating this event with an open mind willing to accept a possibility that the story is literal and then you search for a understanding of what is meant by the event then that would be one thing. If you don't believe the story or the book or the author then what progress is to be made? Like I said lets start a thread on what the tooth fairy does with all the teeth.

I already ''assumed'' the verse to be true (hypothetically) when i was discussing it.

In your reference to god would that be Allah(God) of Abraham and Isaac? If it is true, Allah(God) gave the power to curse the tree so Allah(God) actually cursed the tree that it would wither and die?

Yeah don't you?

I am fine with that if that is what you believe; but there has to be explanation and this explanation has to lead to Love. So now the burden is on us to figure out what is the meaning of this action that we read about.

Why love? There are so many things in the Bible that do not lead to ''love'' and are more violent then cursing a tree as i mentioned before.

If you want to deny the bible in full and the story then be straight forward and do just that, appose to having people spend time and energy trying to help you to understand what it is they understand.Whether you agree or not If you are not open to acceptance then you are wasting everyone's time including yourself.

This is totally irrelevant i was trying to discuss a certain interpretation.
Are you saying that i am not honest with my arguments or something along those lines?

Lets talk about something productive appose to things you do not even believe.

Changing subjects are we?

 

[Searching For Truth]

I already ''assumed'' the verse to be true (hypothetically) when i was discussing it.

What is your motive? Are you willing to accept it as truth if you understand it better or are you just looking to understand why others believe what they believe, or are you just having thrills and kicks arguing something you don't believe?

I can assume for the sake of argument that santa clause is real; but no matter what the proof you claim to have I will never believe santa clause goes to all the kids houses and drops off gifts. So there wouldn't be one iota of beneficial action in my assuming. unless I just want to see your perspective, otherwise It is a waist of time, and unfair to not just admit I do not believe and will not believe. You simply admit you don't believe it; but your are interested in why or what it is others believe who do believe.

Yeah don't you?

Yes I believe Allah(God) is the source

Why love? There are so many things in the Bible that do not lead to ''love'' and are more violent then cursing a tree as i mentioned before.

Every action you read may not appear to be founded in Love, that doesn't mean it isn't. You may not understand the reason for the action thus causing you to fail to see the Love behind the action. For example a little child is about to walk in the street with oncoming traffic and the parent snatches the kid back by the arm and starts to yell. Someone in an apartment window might not see the traffic coming or the danger at hand and think wow why is that mother snatching her child around and yelling she must be abusive and non Loving. Although the truth is the mothers motives are drenched in Love the action can be seen otherwise.

Now more specific you are referring to what is according to the bible the gospels. The gospel according to Jesus in the gospels is God is Love, Love God with all your heart, body, and soul. And to love your neighbor as yourself. Therefor anything we read about God or Jesus has to fit into this gospel. That is his(Jesus) message. That was the point, the people of that time had received the Torah; but where not understanding or using it the proper way. they had forget the real meaning of the Torah. Jesus came to fulfill, to make aware the true meaning, He(Jesus) was the way the truth and the light. according to the scripture. So anything we read in the bible from Genesis to revelation has to be seen in the form of Gods will which is Love.

If you believe that Allah(God) would do cruel, unjust and malicious acts to his creation for no reason other than pure wrath and punishment can you honestly tell yourself that you love this Deity? Would this Deity be deserving of praise and worship? Could he be trusted? Of course this is just my opinion! I could be wrong.

This is totally irrelevant i was trying to discuss a certain interpretation.
Are you saying that i am not honest with my arguments or something along those lines?

Exactly! If you do not believe and are not open to believing then you have no dog in the fight, sort to say, and should be very honest that you are just curious in what others believe. But that is not what you are doing, you choose to take on the side of one who believes and then uses what it is you believe to defend your understanding and opinion on whether Jesus knew or didn't know that it was the season for figs.

That would be similar to me not believing in santa clause and then arguing with someone who does that he(santa clause) doesn't like peanut butter cookies only chocolate chip.

Changing subjects are we?

Not at all we can start a whole new thread on the meaning of the Fig Tree and I would even ask for others I believe to have a better understanding than myself on the perspective to add to it; but what good will it do if you just refuse to believe? I'm kicking a dead horse here! I would prefer to debate the real issues. Without you assuming for the sake of argument. If you want to debate that the story is fake then lets debate that. But what point in debating the facts of the story if you don't even believe the story? This whole issue of the fig tree has gone so far off of the subject of the OP and has nothing to do with the OP. Is Jesus God, and we are talking about the meaning of the fig tree which is a story that you don't even believe in to begin with.

Start a new thread, invite me or let me know about it and I will be glad to debate whatever you want about the Fig tree from an honest perspective. Or anything else you care to debate.

again all just my opinion I could be wrong! I am but human.

 

[1robin]

I don't think emotion is why people love God. A great sage said, that the sex one sees in a woman, and the mystery why a yellow metal, can give rise to currency, as a medium of exchange, is why people don't want to see God. The more a man is in bondage, the more he tries to find the truth, not of freedom, but why man is in bondage. It appears, I knew that the great sage was the Hindu God Vishnu to me. There have to be reasons why man is seen as unpleasant to other men, and it appears that the reasons are what is perceived as greed, by the self, and not by others, and how one knows we react to it, and seem not to be able to do anything about it.

These statements are meaningful but I have no idea what you are replying to. I did not make any claims that this statement addresses. By what non faith based methods can you illustrate that the reality of Vishnu (among the 300 million Gods of India) is apparently truer than the God of the three great mono theistic religions? I have always found oriental pluralistic philosophy/religion to be irrational and self-contradictory but I am always curious. BTW the Biblical explanation for what you described above is the most comprehensive I am aware of in every respect. How does Vishnu top it?

 

[Muffled]

I really haven't made myself clear?

Well if the ''story'' is true in the gospel i would belief what the exact verses say that Jesus(pbuh) was hungry and cursed the tree for not having figs (or at-least not being the season for figs).
But as i said i mentioned this verse earlier on when i was discussing if Jesus(pbuh) was all-knowing or not with Muzzled then Robin picked up the discussion and now you did.

However this appears to be speculation by the author since Jesus never stated that He was hungry. It seems like a logical deduction that Jesus must be hungry because He is approaching a fig tree but men are not mind readers and the author would not have known the true intentions of Jesus.

 

[F0uad]

However this appears to be speculation by the author since Jesus never stated that He was hungry. It seems like a logical deduction that Jesus must be hungry because He is approaching a fig tree but men are not mind readers and the author would not have known the true intentions of Jesus.

If that is the case we can doubt everything said in the Gospels, moreover its reported in both of the Gospels Mark and Matthew.

 

[Jonathan Hoffman]

The most common explanation is that the fig tree symbolized the House of Judah (which had put an Herodian foreigner as its king), and Jesus was cursing Judah for doing so. And of course he was cursing the Pharisees for their accommodation of foreign rulers and Hedllenic apostasy.

 

[F0uad]

The most common explanation is that the fig tree symbolized the House of Judah (which had put an Herodian foreigner as its king), and Jesus was cursing Judah for doing so. And of course he was cursing the Pharisees for their accommodation of foreign rulers and Hedllenic apostasy.

According to R0bin many Biblical scholars belief it was the people of Israel instead of Judah, i pointed out there are many interpretations on this event. I honestly think if you read the chapter as it is it can only be interpreted literally because of the words: "Hungry'' and ''Because it was not the time of season figs''.

 

[1robin]

According to R0bin many Biblical scholars belief it was the people of Israel instead of Judah, i pointed out there are many interpretations on this event. I honestly think if you read the chapter as it is it can only be interpreted literally because of the words: "Hungry'' and ''Because it was not the time of season figs''.

Hold the phone there, F0uad. You might be right about what I said. I was not intending to give a hyperliteral interpretation of those verses. I was only attempting to show that orthodox scholarship was headed in the opposite direction you were. I am not saying JH was right nor I was wrong. I was saying every one commonly used for scholarly commentary was going left and you were going right. Since you did not think left the proper way to go I did not bother to clarify exact details. The point is most people who understand the Bible thinks this relates to the people of God. I said Israel thinking of the non devided kingdom. However it may be more accurate to say the house of Judah. What is clear is that it had virtually nothing to do with Jesus and the season for figs. If you wish I will try and see if I agree in detail with that poster. He may be headed left at 275 degrees and I may be headed left at 265 degrees but we are headed in the same direction but you are headed in the opposite direction at 90 degrees. I guess we are lucky I was working on planes and not driving the ship while in the Navy.

 

[1robin]

If that is the case we can doubt everything said in the Gospels, moreover its reported in both of the Gospels Mark and Matthew.

We get out of all these problems if we think of this as a parable type event. BTW nice Avatar. I can take the post-it down now.