FranklinMichaelV.3
Well-Known Member
No. Genesis 18:1-5.
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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
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No. Genesis 18:1-5.
Shermana
Heretic
Since there's no Vocative in Hebrew, the usual Trinitarian rendering "Thy throne O God" is clearly 100% blatantly wrong and they should probably all know this but they love this "proof text" too much. This deliberate twisting of a direct quote of Psalm 45 by all the mainstream translations is one of the most glaring proofs of widespread direct dishonesty among Trinitarian translations. There's no "O" in Hebrew and only a "The",(And its use in Greek is questionable as well), so what do you REALLY do with the Article there?
It says "God is thy throne" or along that line, of God being the subject who maintains one's throne.
We can see that this passage has been brutally twisted by Trinitarians for millenia.
Psalms 45 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre
7 Thy throne given of God is for ever and ever; a sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
And the "Before me" thing simply means have no other gods of greater importance. Before means "before in line" there.
I definitely want to add to my list of things to do before I leave this lifetime to kill the widespread Hebrews 1:8 canard dead among many other verses.
"It was not for want of evidence, but because their hearts were made fat, and their ears were heavy"
In Trinitarian cases, most of the time it is want of evidence as WELL as fat hearts and heavy ears.
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Shermana
Heretic
1 John 1:22-23 has nothing to do with the Trinity as well, despite its constant abuse by Trinitarians, it simply means one who denies Jesus denies the Father who sent him as well, since Jesus is His representative. It's basically another misuse of the custom-fabricated "Sharp's Rule".
InChrist
Free4ever
I don't think so because the chapter starts right off declaring that John and those who personally saw Jesus had seen and were bearing witness to seeing the Son manifested who was eternal life which was with the Father. This means Jesus is eternal life,without beginning and He has always existed from eternity with the Father. Such language would be not be used if it were referring to an angel or any created being. But it is used to signify the unique eternal status of the Son and oneness with the Father.
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:1-3
captainbryce
Active Member
Nothing needs to be twisted at all. The scriptures you quoted do not imply that God put his son before him. In fact, it is Jesus who puts his own God before him!
John 20:17
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'
captainbryce
Active Member
I would agree with that. What's your point? You think this rationale equates to them being the same God?
InChrist
Free4ever
And why did Jesus speak to them in that way and say those words? Why did He come to earth in the first place? The Son of God came to be the Son of man. He came to identify with humanity and be a human being and a second Adam for the purpose of redemption, according to the scriptures. So from that point on He speaks to His brother and sister humans of His Father as "His God" from the human perspective.
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FranklinMichaelV.3
Well-Known Member
Why did any of us come to earth?
It is possible that we are taking the term "son of god" to literally.
InChrist
Free4ever
What do you mean?
Shermana
Heretic
I fail to see how that in any way vindicates the Trinitarian mangling of 1 John 2:22 saying that they're the same being.
InChrist
Free4ever
If someone does not acknowledge that the Son who was made manifest in the flesh was eternally with the Father then they are denying the true eternal (God) nature of Jesus and have the antichrist spirit, therefore they are denying the Father also as they are One God.
Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 1 John 2:22-23
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Shermana
Heretic
You mean acknowledge that Jesus as a Spiritual Being was made manifest in the Flesh? Because it doesn't specifically say he was the Father made manifest in the Flesh whatsoever.
Okay, so how do you possibly derive that it's specifically referring to them being the Same God rather than simply denying the Father because they deny his messenger? As you show, it says WITH the Father, which the language easily suggests as meaning different entities altogethers, not just "different persons" (whatever "persons" means).
Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 1 John 2:22-23[/QUOTE]
If anything, this can be much more easily interpreted as saying that Trinitarians are liars since they deny Jesus as the CHRIST, the incarnation of the Logos who is the Firstborn of THE god, and dramatically redefine what it means to be "Christ" as in God Himself. Thus, the liar is he who says God is His own Christ. All this verse says is that one who truly acknowledges Jesus as the Christ (in whatever implication it means to honor him as the Christ as intended) also has God on his side.
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InChrist
Free4ever
I am not saying that it says or the scriptures anywhere say that it was the Father manifested who in the flesh. It was the Son made manifest in the flesh.
I derive that it shows both the Son and the Father as the Same God because as I stated earlier the scriptures say ..."that eternal life which was with the Father"( excerpt from: 1 John 1:2) and only God Himself has eternal life as His essence.
Shermana
Heretic
So therefore the verse is not talking about believing that Jesus was God. If anything the verse is very close to promoting an Arian view.
[/QUOTE]
What "essence" do the Angels have and how do you derive that ONLY the Father has "eternal life" as his essence and where does it say that this "eternal life" is his "essence"? How is "The life" which is WITH the Father mean it's His essence? How do you know that "The life" is not a reference to a personified created Being who embodied the characteristics of Life (and Wisdom)?
captainbryce
Active Member
The scripture does not say he addressed them because he was God "who came to be Son of man". That is YOUR interpretation (one that can only be demonstrated using circular logic). It simply states that he had not ascended to his father (who was HIS GOD). The fact that he identifies his father as his God proves that he is not his own God, for he had previously stated that God was ONE.
captainbryce
Active Member
This is a straw man argument if I've ever heard one! Nobody is even saying that he wasn't "manifest in the flesh" or that he wasn't "eternally with the Father". And I'm not saying that he doesn't have God's "nature" either. What we are saying is that he is NOT GOD! That's a completely different argument altogether. So there is no point in dangling that idea out there because you are misrepresenting the position of people who reject trinity. 1 John 2:22-23 does not apply to someone just because they reject trinity and it is dishonest to suggest that people are "antichrist" simply because they don't acknowledge "trinity" because that's not what 1 John 2:22-23 says!
captainbryce
Active Member
REALLY? Well then I guess that means that John 3:16 is a false promise then?
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
If only God himself has eternal life, then John 3:16 is a lie! But since scripture is the inspired word of God and this scripture in particular represents the words of Christ, then we as Christians must conclude that it is true, and therefore there must be something wrong with YOUR interpretation.
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InChrist
Free4ever
No, John 3:16 is not a false promise because God who alone possesses eternal life,...without beginning, has the power within Himself to give the gift of eternal life to those who believe in the God/man Savior Jesus Christ. The only Son of God who came from His Father, who has all things which His Father has, meaning He possesses the same nature and eternal life without beginning as His Father does, is the Word of life and gives eternal life to those who believe in Him.
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 19:28
InChrist
Free4ever
What "essence" do the Angels have and how do you derive that ONLY the Father has "eternal life" as his essence and where does it say that this "eternal life" is his "essence"? How is "The life" which is WITH the Father mean it's His essence? How do you know that "The life" is not a reference to a personified created Being who embodied the characteristics of Life (and Wisdom)?[/quote]
The angels were created and have a point of beginning. Only God, the Father and I believe the Son and Holy Spirit have eternal life...without beginning, meaning uncreated, Self-existent from eternity past. So the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit share the same eternal essence or nature of uncreated eternal life without a beginning.
captainbryce
Active Member
Even if one were to believe this (which I don't by the way), that still doesn't say that Go is three "persons" (whatever that means), nor does it say that Jesus is God. It is merely your explanation for why Jesus COULD be God, and why YOU believe Jesus is God, but it is not scriptural evidence that he is. It's an interpretation. I'm looking for solid, scriptural substance here. Some passage where Jesus says that he is God. And I think the fact that nobody can produce this seems to speak for itself. All things being equal, the simplest explanation is correct. Jesus never says that he is God because he's not.