Did Jesus say he was God???

[1robin]

Sure, you may interpret that way, but my own interpretation is that when God incarnated in the human body known as Jesus, the intrinsic Divine transcendent timeless, omnipresent and omniscient nature can't be expressed fully in the finite physical domain of 3D time space reality.

I can't prove your interpretation is wrong but I can prove mine is the most common or give evidence for that anyway. I will add my two sense but that is about all that I can do for an interpretive issue. Jesus was said to have been present before the beginning at the beginning. It was he who all things were made through. Is there any non divine being that that would be true of? If not then he is divine (never created). If divine then he must have been diminished voluntary while on Earth. So he was divine and yet not omniscient during that period. Your idea that that can't be expressed in a physical realm might be true but I thought you claimed he was not divine at all because of his ignorance of end time dates?

 

[Shermana]

I can't prove your interpretation is wrong but I can prove mine is the most common or give evidence for that anyway. I will add my two sense but that is about all that I can do for an interpretive issue. Jesus was said to have been present before the beginning at the beginning. It was he who all things were made through. Is there any non divine being that that would be true of? If not then he is divine (never created). If divine then he must have been diminished voluntary while on Earth. So he was divine and yet not omniscient during that period. Your idea that that can't be expressed in a physical realm might be true but I thought you claimed he was not divine at all because of his ignorance of end time dates?

What do you think "Made through" means?

(At least you understand that it says "Through" and not "by" as in 'originated by").

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I can't prove your interpretation is wrong but I can prove mine is the most common or give evidence for that anyway. I will add my two sense but that is about all that I can do for an interpretive issue. Jesus was said to have been present before the beginning at the beginning. It was he who all things were made through. Is there any non divine being that that would be true of? If not then he is divine (never created). If divine then he must have been diminished voluntary while on Earth. So he was divine and yet not omniscient during that period. Your idea that that can't be expressed in a physical realm might be true but I thought you claimed he was not divine at all because of his ignorance of end time dates?

Firstly let me say that my posts are not an attempt to prove anything, they are merely there for consideration.

...but the essential nature of you was also present before the beginning,..Rev. 13:8 The beast was worshiped by everyone whose name wasn’t written before the time of creation in the book of the Lamb who was slain.

You see, God in the Absolute sense is one and indivisible, the conceptual distinctions made concerning Father, Holy Spirit, and Son are merely mental abstract differentiations/parts/aspects/attributes of the non dual underlying monotheistic nature of 'G-d'. Think of Gestalt theory, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts,..the idea of Panetheism.

Ps. I might add that concerning Rev. 13:8, the expression "written in the Lamb's book of life before the time of creation" is not to be taken literally, but merely alludes to those souls who know 'what' and 'who' they really are in the context of the mystical wholeness of G-d.

 

[1robin]

What do you think "Made through" means?

(At least you understand that it says "Through" and not "by" as in 'originated by").

There is no meaning that allows that he did not exist possible. It actually is more complicated then the two terms you gave but like I said no term means what you need it to mean. It was not creation or power I gave the verse for but of existence. Normally Humans did not live 10,000 years.

 

[1robin]

Firstly let me say that my posts are not an attempt to prove anything, they are merely there for consideration.

Oh, then you are a rarity here.

...but the essential nature of you was also present before the beginning,..Rev. 13:8 The beast was worshiped by everyone whose name wasn’t written before the time of creation in the book of the Lamb who was slain.

Even in the context intended that does not mean we existed at that time. It means God foreknew what everyone who would eventually exist would choose. Actually that verse is very complex but I took it as you meant it for convenience.

You see, God in the Absolute sense is one and indivisible, the conceptual distinctions made concerning Father, Holy Spirit, and Son are merely mental abstract differentiations/parts/aspects/attributes of the non dual underlying monotheistic nature of 'G-d'. Think of Gestalt theory, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts,..the idea of Panetheism.

About a million theologians and philosophers think the opposite. The traditional view is that God is one being composed of 3 persons (distinct wills). I see no potential for conflict.

Ps. I might add that concerning Rev. 13:8, the expression "written in the Lamb's book of life before the time of creation" is not to be taken literally, but merely alludes to those souls who know 'what' and 'who' they really are in the context of the mystical wholeness of G-d.

Every version and interpretation in my considerable experience on that verse differs completely from what you gave here. Where did you get it?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Oh, then you are a rarity here.

Even in the context intended that does not mean we existed at that time. It means God foreknew what everyone who would eventually exist would choose. Actually that verse is very complex but I took it as you meant it for convenience.

About a million theologians and philosophers think the opposite. The traditional view is that God is one being composed of 3 persons (distinct wills). I see no potential for conflict.

Every version and interpretation in my considerable experience on that verse differs completely from what you gave here. Where did you get it?

True, 'we' as souls didn't exist at the time, what was meant was that the God in you, the 'breath' that animates the 'clay', already existed at that time (and always), and those souls who understand this also know 'what' and 'who' they really are.

As to the millions of theologians and philosophers who think differently, they are doing their best but it is said that G-d is forever beyond the ken of the human hearing, sight, and mind (conceptualization), but is revealed in love..1 Cor. 2:9

I loved you Lord so constantly,
I finally became You,
Little by little You drew nearer,
Slowly but slowly I passed away. - Anon

Such a soul that has not tried to save itself through it own efforts, but rather has given itself up to G-d, will have eternal life. Matt, 16:25. (G-d speaking through His avatarical vehicle Jesus)

Now it is a given that you presently are in lock step with the Christian orthodox viewpoint on these matters, it is not that that is wrong, just that there is more to it, so far as my present understanding of the scripture goes, so there seems little point in further discussion at this time.

Thank you for sharing your present understanding, and God bless.

 

[captainbryce]

Wow, 737 pages! I think it's time to start a NEW thread on this topic. Here, I wouldn't even know where to begin!

 

[Shermana]

Wow, 737 pages! I think it's time to start a NEW thread on this topic. Here, I wouldn't even know where to begin!

When I first started battling the Trinitarians on this thread 2 years ago, it had 140,000 views. I think this thread has seen more new views than all new threads put together. At least I get an audience as I crush the Trinity point by point.

 

[captainbryce]

When I first started battling the Trinitarians on this thread 2 years ago, it had 140,000 views. I think this thread has seen more new views than all new threads put together. At least I get an audience as I crush the Trinity point by point.

Is that really all that hard to do though? It is an inherently illogical concept. And the biblical support of it is very lacking, derived only through "extrapolation". The fact that there have been false scriptures put in the bible to bolster the trinity claim should be enough to prove that it's a false doctrine. Why people can't see this I have no idea.

 

[BornAgain]

When I first started battling the Trinitarians on this thread 2 years ago, it had 140,000 views. I think this thread has seen more new views than all new threads put together. At least I get an audience as I crush the Trinity point by point.

SPOKE TO SOON MAN!

TRINITY:
The one eternal God, the Lord, has disclosed to his people that he is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Yet he is not three deities but one Godhead, since all three Persons share the one Deity/Godhead. The biblical teaching of the Trinity is, in a sense, a mystery; and the more we enter into union with God and deepen our understanding of him, the more we recognize how much there is yet to know. Based on the biblical teaching, the traditional Christian confession is that God is One in Three and Three in One.

The OT condemns polytheism and declares that God is one and is to be worshiped and loved as such (Deut 6:4-5; Isa 45:21). And this conviction of the unity of God is continued in the NT (see Mark 10:18; 12:29; Gal 3:20; 1 Cor 8:4; 1 Tim 2:5).

God is the Father of Israel (Isa 64:8; Jer 31:9) and of the anointed king of his people (2 Sam 7:14; Pss 2:7; 89:27). Jesus lived in communion with his heavenly Father, always doing his will and recognizing him as truly and eternally God (Matt 11:25-27; Luke 10:21-22; John 10:25-28; Rom 15:6; 2 Cor 1:3; 11:31).

The disciples came to see that Jesus was the long-expected Messiah of Israel (Matt 16:13-20; Mark 8:27-30). Later they understood that to be the Messiah, Jesus must also be God made man (see John 1:1-2, 18; 20:28; Rom 9:5; Titus 2:13; Heb 1:8; 2 Peter 1:1). Thus doxologies were offered to him as God (Heb 13:20-21; 2 Peter 3:18; Rev 1:5-6; 5:13; 7:10).

The apostles, following Jesus, refer to the Holy Spirit as a Person. In Acts, the Spirit inspires Scripture, is lied to, is tempted, bears witness, is resisted, directs, carries someone away, informs, commands, calls, sends, thinks a certain decision is good, forbids, prevents, warns, appoints, and reveals prophetic truth (see Acts 1:16; 5:3, 9, 32; 7:51; 8:29, 39; 10:19; 11:12; 13:2, 4; 15:28; 16:6, 7; 20:23, 28; 28:25). Paul describes the Spirit as bearing witness, speaking, teaching, and acting as guide (Rom 8:14, 16, 26; Gal 4:6; Eph 4:30). The Holy Spirit is another parakletos (John 14:16; 15:26-27; 16:13-15). God, the Lord, is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This confession and understanding may be said to be basic to the faith of the writers of the NT, though they rarely express it in precise terms. But in certain passages the doctrine is articulated (Matt 28:19; 1 Cor 12:4-6; 2 Cor 13:14; 2 Thess 2:13-14; 1 Peter 1:2).

CAN YOU DISPROVE ALL THESE VERSES ABOUT THE TRINITY AS I HAVE DISPROVED YOUR DELUSIONAL ANGELS’ THEORY ABOUT THE Lord Jesus Christ?

THE APOSTOLICAL BENEDICTION:

2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

Thus the apostle concludes his epistle, and thus it is usual and proper to dismiss worshipping assemblies. This plainly proves the doctrine of the gospel, and is an acknowledgment that Father, Son, and Spirit, are three distinct persons, yet but one God; and herein the same, that they are the fountain of all blessings to men. It likewise intimates our duty, which is to have an eye by faith to Father, Son, and Holy Ghost—to live in a continual regard to the three persons in the Trinity, into whose name we were baptized, and in whose name we are blessed. This is a very solemn benediction, and we should give all diligence to inherit this blessing. The grace of Christ, the love of God, and the communion (or communication) of the Holy Ghost: the grace of Christ as Redeemer, the love of God who sent the Redeemer, and all the communications of this grace and love, which come to us by the Holy Ghost; it is the communications of the Holy Ghost that qualify us for an interest in the grace of Christ, and the love of God: and we can desire no more to make us happy than the grace of Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost. Amen.

Matthew Henry

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

This is like arguing about which finger Frodo wore the Ring of Power on... Do the semantics of a fictional story really matter?

 

[captainbryce]

Based on the biblical teaching, the traditional Christian confession is that God is One in Three and Three in One.

This is simply untrue. If it were, you should be able to give us the book, chapter and verse that declares God "one in three" or "three in one". But there is no such scripture! There is scripture that declares that God is only ONE. This rules out the possibility of a "trinity" as traditionally taught.

Later they understood that to be the Messiah, Jesus must also be God made man (see John 1:1-2, 18; 20:28; Rom 9:5; Titus 2:13; Heb 1:8; 2 Peter 1:1). Thus doxologies were offered to him as God (Heb 13:20-21; 2 Peter 3:18; Rev 1:5-6; 5:13; 7:10).

This is where the trinitarian view falls apart and begins to rely on contradictory extrapolations.

CAN YOU DISPROVE ALL THESE VERSES ABOUT THE TRINITY AS I HAVE DISPROVED YOUR DELUSIONAL ANGELS’ THEORY ABOUT THE Lord Jesus Christ?

I don't know if HE can, but I certainly can. There is only ONE "trinity" verse in the bible, and it comes from 1 John 5:7 (King James Version). However, this is a false scripture that doesn't appear in any early Greek manuscripts. It was added to the King James as a footnote to push the trinity doctrine. The phrase does not appear in any modern translation, as biblical scholars are well aware of this error.

1 John 5:7 (King James Version) [False Scripture Alert]
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1 John 5:7-8 (New Living Translation)
7 So we have these three witnesses— 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and all three agree.

Both God, and Jesus declare that God is ONE (not three in one).

Deuteronomy 32:39
Look now; I myself am he! There is no other god but me...

1 Kings 8:60
Then people all over the earth will know that the Lord alone is God and there is no other.

Isaiah 43:10
...There is no other God—there never has been, and there never will be.

Mark 12:29
“The most important one (commandment),” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

Nobody has ever seen God directly. But many people HAVE seen Jesus. Therefore, Jesus cannot be God.

Exodus 33:20
But you may not look directly at my face, for no one may see me and live.

John 1:18 (New International Version - False Scripture Alert]
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God [footnote] and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

John 1:18 (King James Version)
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God. But if we love each other, God lives in us, and his love is brought to full expression in us.

Scripture says that God never dies. Yet Jesus DID die!

Habakkuk 1:12
12 Lord, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, you will never die.

John 19:33
But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.

Jesus was God's first creation, meaning that God existed first.

Colossians 1:15
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Revelation 3:14 (New International Version) [False Scripture Alert]
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.

Revelation 3:14 (King James Version)
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

God knows everything but Jesus did not. He had to learn!

Hebrews 5:8
Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered

Matthew 24:36
36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Jesus declares that God (his father) is greater than he is.

Mark 10:18
18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

John 14:28
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 5:30
30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Jesus has his own God. If there is only ONE God, and he is the God of Christ, then Christ is not God.

Luke 6:12
One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God.

John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Revelation 3:12
The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

Jesus and God (not "the father" but "God") are described as separate beings.

Acts 7:55
But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

 

[captainbryce]

This is like arguing about which finger Frodo wore the Ring of Power on... Do the semantics of a fictional story really matter?

It obviously matters to people who believe it is a true story. If you consider it "fiction" and it doesn't matter to you, then that begs the question...WHY ARE YOU HERE?

 

[Poeticus]

While I agree with you about the Divinity of Jesus.

To use Bible quotes to prove it, requires the reader to accept the Truth of the Bible.

This belief does not always exist.

Namaste,

Did anyone ever read this post? It was the second one in this whole thread.

This post makes a lot of sense. Debating on this matter should cease, and all should end up worshipping me!

M.V.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

It obviously matters to people who believe it is a true story. If you consider it "fiction" and it doesn't matter to you, then that begs the question...WHY ARE YOU HERE?

The question was whether or not Jesus said he was God. I don't believe he did, because I don't think he existed. I've got just as much right to debate this issue as you do...

 

[captainbryce]

The question was whether or not Jesus said he was God. I don't believe he did, because I don't think he existed.

Well, you could have just said that in the beginning and left. But you chose to denounce a religion as false instead.

I've got just as much right to debate this issue as you do...

I'm not questioning your "right". I'm questioning your motivation! If this topic doesn't matter to you, WHY BOTHER REPLYING AT ALL?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Well, you could have just said that in the beginning and left. But you chose to denounce a religion as false instead.

I'm not questioning your "right". I'm questioning your motivation! If this topic doesn't matter to you, WHY BOTHER REPLYING AT ALL?

Why not? If my response doesn't matter to you, don't respond to it.

 

[captainbryce]

Why not? If my response doesn't matter to you, don't respond to it.

Okay, so basically you don't want to answer the question then? Because based on your lack of answer, the obvious assumption would be that your goal is to attack another religion. Your response (or lack thereof) does matter to me because I'd like to know what kind of person you are before I decide whether or not you are someone I would choose to communicate with again.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Okay, so basically you don't want to answer the question then? Because based on your lack of answer, the obvious assumption would be that your goal is to attack another religion. Your response (or lack thereof) does matter to me because I'd like to know what kind of person you are before I decide whether or not you are someone I would choose to communicate with again.

I did too answer the question. Jesus didn't say he was God because he didn't exist.

 

[Freelance_Policeman]

I did too answer the question. Jesus didn't say he was God because he didn't exist.

I'm sure the Jews would have said something when they were killed and tortured for the charge of deicide.