Did Jesus say he was God???

[Shermana]

I believe I have been doing that.

Well keep believing then, because I fail to see how.

I understand that the Bible is not written in English. It is translated into English.

Glad to see you understand this.

That is nice but the context does not necessitate that it be translated past tense and it is context that helps form a good translation. An imperfect view is that Jesus is talking about the past because He said before Abraham but that ignores the larger context of Jesus identifying who He is.

That's the thing, there is no larger context that Jesus is identifying who he is, but WHAT he is. Thus, "I have been" or "I was" and many Trinitarian scholars prefer. You have no way of proving that he's changing the comparison of when Abraham lived to himself to an identification of who he is.

I believe that is not logical. If he were simply answering a question of name, He would have said my name is "I am."

What's not logical is your understanding.

He is answering a question of Identity.

Wrong, he's answering a question of when he existed. "But you have not lived so and so many years" is not a question of identity.

In particular He is answering a question of pre-existence to His current life. By saying He has always existed He is answering the question.

Okay, so that's not a question of identity but of a characteristic of age. Again, he'd have to say "My name is I am" or "I am I am" to answer a question of who he is, not what or how he is.

I believe your conclusion is groundless. I have stated before that the translation fits the context.

Well keep believing that all you want. I believe YOUR Conclusion is groundless, and that the translation does not fit the context.

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[idav]

In some ways wouldn't it take away the power of Jesus if he was God. After all, how can a God be tempted to sin or die on the cross if he is a God? Being without sin would be more powerful if Jesus was a human like everyone else. He is then attainable but if he is a God, most would say that's not attainable. Does this trinity notion take away the motivation to try to be like Jesus because of his supposed Godhood?

I agree with your sentiment here. What good are humans if not one of them is worth saving? Humans can save themselves because they are in Gods image.

 

[1robin]

Let me just be clear, I didn't mean you or your friend particularly, I meant those in general, like the Theologians who try to make this common type of argument that Jesus didn't really mean what he said by "detracting".

I do not see anything more to the verse other than what the obvious plain message was, that Jesus was merciful in granting even a Canaanite's wish when she faithfully accepted her place and regarded Jesus as who he truly was, the Spiritual King and Messiah. Thus, her lowly status as a "Slave of slaves" and "dog" entitled her to some of the "Crumbs" of the "Children's bread", though still not for the "bread" of the "Children". I think trying to find anything more from this verse does a great disservice to the deep meaning of this, by trying to find a deeper meaning that attempts to change the point in a more PC modern liberal friendly manner, the intended context is lost.

There is no PC motivation present when I credit the full impact of your interpretation. You will never find a less PC person on Earth and my original comments on those verses granted full weight to its meaning you mention.

 

[challupa]

I can't imagine how power can be taken from the one who posesses it.

I believe He can't but that doesn't stop the devil from trying anyway.

I believe only by His choosing to not use His power to prevent it. BTW Jesus does use his power to keep from being thrown off a cliff in Nazareth.

I believe there is a verse in Isaiah where God says He looked for a man but couldn't find one.

I believe most are capable of saying the most non-sensical things.

I believe a child has to be weened on milk, ability to eat meat comes later. So although some things come as fruit of the spirit other things come with the presence of the spirit in power. Ga 3:24 So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

When I talked about the power of it being taken, I wasn't talking about the power of Jesus being any less, rather the story of it being less powerful. It's pretty much useless to tempt someone who cannot be tempted (God) and it's pretty much pointless to say that someone who can't be killed (died) for our sins. I really don't see why there needs to be a convoluted story about 3 in 1. I really don't see the point of it.

 

[challupa]

I agree with your sentiment here. What good are humans if not one of them is worth saving? Humans can save themselves because they are in Gods image.

Humans are worth saving. But I would take it a step farther and say humans are not NEEDING to be saved. I don't agree with original sin, I don't agree that humans are 'less than' .

 

[idav]

Humans are worth saving. But I would take it a step farther and say humans are not NEEDING to be saved. I don't agree with original sin, I don't agree that humans are 'less than' .

I don't agree with original sin either. I also agree that humans don't need to be saved because humans can save themselves. Humans are not necessarily less than, humans have the potential to be so much, no need to settle for less.

 

[1robin]

I don't agree with original sin either. I also agree that humans don't need to be saved because humans can save themselves. Humans are not necessarily less than, humans have the potential to be so much, no need to settle for less.

On thing a human can't do is save himself. As far as I know all humans have died or will. Saved from what if that is the case? We can even live peacefully with each other. In 5000 years we have saved about 300 years without war. That track record justifies no optimism and it appears we are getting even worse, not better as time goes on. Even if you could know that we were not born in sin we certainly pick up quicker than anything else.

 

[psychoslice]

No Jesus didn't say he was god, in fact he said he cannot do anything without god or the father, he even said to not call him good, because there was no one good except for the father. The father is our pure Source, or Consciousness, we as the mind body organism are nothing without the Source, in fact we are the Source.

 

[Muffled]

Well keep believing then, because I fail to see how.

Glad to see you understand this.

That's the thing, there is no larger context that Jesus is identifying who he is, but WHAT he is. Thus, "I have been" or "I was" and many Trinitarian scholars prefer. You have no way of proving that he's changing the comparison of when Abraham lived to himself to an identification of who he is.

What's not logical is your understanding.

Wrong, he's answering a question of when he existed. "But you have not lived so and so many years" is not a question of identity.

Okay, so that's not a question of identity but of a characteristic of age. Again, he'd have to say "My name is I am" or "I am I am" to answer a question of who he is, not what or how he is.

Well keep believing that all you want. I believe YOUR Conclusion is groundless, and that the translation does not fit the context.

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I believe this is the operative word.

I believe you have misconstrued what I said. I did not say that "before Abraham" was not a context but simply that there is a larger context.

I believe the entire chapter is context about who Jesus is.

The fact that God is the only one who has always existed is an identifying fact. Only God can say that, since everyone else was created. So when Jesus speaks of always existing by saying "I Am" He is identifying Hmself as God.

 

[Muffled]

I agree with your sentiment here. What good are humans if not one of them is worth saving? Humans can save themselves because they are in Gods image.

God created man as good in the beginning, so it is certainly worthwhile for God to attempt to return man to his original state. In addition Jesus dying on the cross reveals the depth of God's love for those created in His image.

I have never met one that could.

The problem with this concept is that humans are not exactly like God otherwise it would be a cinch.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

God created man as good in the beginning, so it is certainly worthwhile for God to attempt to return man to his original state. In addition Jesus dying on the cross reveals the depth of God's love for those created in His image.

I have never met one that could.

The problem with this concept is that humans are not exactly like God otherwise it would be a cinch.

Well if humans were to work together there is nothing that we could not do. Unfortunately we were struck with different languages and scattered across the world.

 

[Muffled]

When I talked about the power of it being taken, I wasn't talking about the power of Jesus being any less, rather the story of it being less powerful. It's pretty much useless to tempt someone who cannot be tempted (God) and it's pretty much pointless to say that someone who can't be killed (died) for our sins. I really don't see why there needs to be a convoluted story about 3 in 1. I really don't see the point of it.

If Jesus were just a man there would be no story because He would have fallen into temptation. The story is a powerful one because it shows that God in a human body can overcome the frailties of the human body. Everything looks rosy from a spiritual vantage point. How easy is it for God to endure the wrenching feeling of hunger and not be tempted to turn stones into bread. It is easy in the spirit but not so easy in the flesh.

I believe that is the whole point. God is not winning souls by wiping out whole cities but He is winning souls by dieing on the cross. Displaying power wins people over for a little bit but showing His love for us wins us over forever.

I believe the convolution comes not from God. It is simple: God who has displyed Himself in power reveals Himself in love and extends that love to us.

 

[Muffled]

I don't agree with original sin either. I also agree that humans don't need to be saved because humans can save themselves. Humans are not necessarily less than, humans have the potential to be so much, no need to settle for less.

I can't say I care where sin originiated; I believe the fact that it is present shows that man can't save himself from it.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I can't say I care where sin originiated; I believe the fact that it is present shows that man can't save himself from it.

Well I think it's interesting to know where it comes from. Given that Judaism sees the story of Genesis as that of conflicting natures, not an original sin that would carry on.

Besides God would have only punished until the 4th generation of Adam.

 

[1robin]

Well I think it's interesting to know where it comes from. Given that Judaism sees the story of Genesis as that of conflicting natures, not an original sin that would carry on.

Besides God would have only punished until the 4th generation of Adam.

Not if that sin (no matter at what stage it originates) is still present in every generation since Adam and seems to be increasing. Punishments (even if that is reasonable terminology here) do not end until the problem has. I would also not have used a description of an aspect (4th generations) as a goal post or boundary condition.

 

[1robin]

No Jesus didn't say he was god, in fact he said he cannot do anything without god or the father, he even said to not call him good, because there was no one good except for the father. The father is our pure Source, or Consciousness, we as the mind body organism are nothing without the Source, in fact we are the Source.

Let me point out what is wrong with what you have claimed.

1. Those comments he made were only made about his Earthly ministry when his capacity (whatever it was) was diminished so as to be a reasonable example to a very limited mankind.

2. He did not say to not call him good. He said only God was good and that the man had called him good so that would make him what? That is actually a very sophisticated story I find almost every non-Christian just never grasps a fraction of.

The greatest theological experts in history have never exhausted the sophistication and depth of the Bible all put together. I doubt you are going to do so through surface readings and assumptions of simplicity that will bite you constantly where the Bible is concerned. I will give you links to that sophistication concerning the man who addressed Christ as teacher story if you wish from either experts or myself or other posters. That story is anything but simple or intending what you got from it.

 

[psychoslice]

Let me point out what is wrong with what you have claimed.

1. Those comments he made were only made about his Earthly ministry when his capacity (whatever it was) was diminished so as to be a reasonable example to a very limited mankind.

2. He did not say to not call him good. He said only God was good and that the man had called him good so that would make him what? That is actually a very sophisticated story I find almost every non-Christian just never grasps a fraction of.

The greatest theological experts in history have never exhausted the sophistication and depth of the Bible all put together. I doubt you are going to do so through surface readings and assumptions of simplicity that will bite you constantly where the Bible is concerned. I will give you links to that sophistication concerning the man who addressed Christ as teacher story if you wish from either experts or myself or other posters. That story is anything but simple or intending what you got from it.

I know what I need to know about the bible, we are all ONE in pure Essence or god if you like that word better. Jesus realized this fact and called it the father, so Jesus in his true nature is also the Father or again pure Essence, and this is what the whole story points to. Jesus never came out and stated this truth because many weer no ready for it, the ego claims it for itself and believes itself to be god, when God is beyond the ego mind.

Everything in the Cosmos is ONE appearing as many, and the whole story of all religions point to this Oneness, and call it all sorts of names and all sorts of stories are made from this Oneness, this realization is called Enlightenment.

 

[Shermana]

I know what I need to know about the bible, we are all ONE in pure Essence or god if you like that word better. Jesus realized this fact and called it the father, so Jesus in his true nature is also the Father or again pure Essence, and this is what the whole story points to. Jesus never came out and stated this truth because many weer no ready for it, the ego claims it for itself and believes itself to be god, when God is beyond the ego mind.

Everything in the Cosmos is ONE appearing as many, and the whole story of all religions point to this Oneness, and call it all sorts of names and all sorts of stories are made from this Oneness, this realization is called Enlightenment.

So murderer-rapists are part of this ONE?

 

[psychoslice]

So murderer-rapists are part of this ONE?

Yes they are, they don't realize that we are all ONE, they are ignorant of this truth, and hence their actions.

Did Jesus say in the story where he was being nailed to the cross, "Father forgive them for they no not what they do", they are also ONE in Consciousness, but again they are ignorant of this fact.

 

[Shermana]

Yes they are, they don't realize that we are all ONE, they are ignorant of this truth, and hence their actions.

Did Jesus say in the story where he was being nailed to the cross, "Father forgive them for they no not what they do", they are also ONE in Consciousness, but again they are ignorant of this fact.

I think Jesus was saying they were simply ignorant of the reality of who he himself was as the Incarnation of the Chosen Messiah, nothing more about Monism.

This "Enlightenment Monism" concept is a nice idea but I don't quite think it's what the authors were intending to be gleaned.