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Did Jesus say he was God???

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
It would be nice if Muslims actually followed that order. As for the Son of God, I don't believe Jesus ever ascribed to the term. Being God, He would not want to be considered as a separate being from God which is what Son of God suggests.

I believe Spain was as much a reaction to being invaded as it was religious persecution. Certainly the church at the time viewed anyone who wasn't Christian as an infidel. I tend to think the idea that one should kill infidels does not come from God. I met a Serbian once who said that enmity with Muslims in his land was due to Muslims burning Christian Churches and mistreating Christians, I can remember a Christian evangelist at the Sarajevo Olympics being arrested but he was later released. My guess is that neither side in Bosnia had clean hands. I haven't heard much about Burma other than the government managed to persecute just about everybody.

There is nothing to forgive. Any belief can be doubted. The question is whether it is reasonable doubt. The Apostle Paul told us that we should always have an apology ready (a good argument). I believe it is important to have a sound basis for beliefs.

I second that. Many Muslims celebrate the the birth of Muhammad these days and some of them claim it is okay and they don't actually praise him doing it. I fear that this could be the beginning of worshiping Muhammad instead of God in the future. I completely refuse to attend this event as Muhammad is basically a human just like us (the Quraan mentioned that). But this is another subject.

Through history both Muslims and Christians suffered animosity and persecution from each other. Nowadays people of both sides condemn the other for history they hear on the media and events from small numbers of people they meet, which does not represent the whole truth of what happened in big countries. But the fact is, neither of the two sides have their hands clean and what we hear from different sources, specially the media, are just fragments of the whole truth, if combined in a way, it can trick us to imagine one of the sides is the complete evil and the other is completely innocent. I realized this sometime ago when I used to hate Christians and Jews that now I feel guilty about it :(

Noted with appreciation :)
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
This thread....
It certainly will not die.



I do plan to change it since I've had that one for a while....
Do not do so on my account. I was being rhetorical.


I didn't necessarily pick it for that reason. I'm a big fan of horror films (the scarier, the gorier...the better). And I'm a big Sci Fi guy...and when you mixed the two (sci fi and horror) oh baby..!!!!...
My comments do not necessarily apply to you. However it is uncanny what percentage of non-theists will select imagines genuinely associated with evil or something ominous.



I think you meant (assess). Well I can't can't speak for others but my reasons, as indicated above, have nothing to do with religion. I don't believe in "God", the devil, demons, spirits, souls, sprites, pixies, trolls (other than internet trolls)...etc...etc.. so my motivation for choosing an avatar doesn't really center around those types of themes.
Normally you will be right with any grammatical correction made to my statements. Not here though. I meant I have no access to your motivations so I can not make any reliable conclusions about it. I can make deductive comparisons between the Bible's saying that in general non-theists are rebellious and prefer darkness but that would not apply to everyone and without access directly to your motivates I can not state what is true of them with certainty. BTW what the bible describes is not necessarily a voluntary action. That rebellion and a preference for darkness is not even noticeable to those that have that inclination many times. A person born sick in many cases does not realize he is. Especially if like the bible says we are all born sick and the cure is invisible. I only realize how sick I was and how empty my heart was once I was well and it was full. Again this may or may not apply to you but is generally true.

If you give something power through your imagination then it will have control over you....(Saeth The Dirty Penguin).
That is certainly true.

Anyway do not take of that personally. It was just a general observation.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Busy day but this reply of mine is just to say I "got" this reply of yours, and will work on a reply of my own, editing this post later on to make additions.
Take your time.

I can say the avatar is actually just something I grabbed from a Google image search that comes from a video game screenshot :D Does remind me of some older movies though. Dragonslayer mythology of Europe comes from a mix of old Pagan and Christian blended tales and legends and I like to play with it... somewhat universal.
Ok, I swear I have answered this post already but could not find it so in case I am misremembering I will do so again.

Edit: I've actually gone over most of it in other threads with multiple posts. I realizde this as I was writing your post on paper to better respond , since I've just been using a phone for internet lol

Just to quick rehash....

I don't see the Divine as separate from all else so how is the perfection problem there?
Well it is far more important what is true than the way we see things. I did not like God, Christianity, or Christians at one time and saw everything exactly backwards from the way I eventually found it actually to be.

The divine implies necessary perfection and a logical maximum.
If you consider everything as divine then everything must be perfect.
The natural is not perfect. In fact it appears to have gone horribly wrong.
Conclusion: The natural is not divine.

Regardless heaven would not be heaven if it contains sin. We contain sin. We cannot go to heaven if we contain sin and rebellion. Therefor something external to us must remedy what we cannot. There for you get the salvation model I supplied earlier. If the natural is divine then the divine has no meaning.


How would a perfect God not make us as intended precisely?
He did make us as intended. His desire is love. Love is not love if it is not freely given. We cannot freely give anything unless we have freewill. Freewill cannot exist unless it is free to choose wrongly. Choosing wrongly necessitates bad outcomes. We were built perfectly in line with his purposes. That is why it is said we are the image of God. We are not perfect or a maximum but we are
personal and free moral agents. We are exactly as his purpose mandates we must be.


Objective morality through subjective beings is impossible. We know of no highly advanced, complete morality guide revealed in ancient times that matches or bests current universal standards or which doesn't reflect ancient man's cultural biases. Supreme Intelligence and Morality would naturally not appear to be closer to Law of Hittites or Code of Ishtar, Hammurabi, etc. than 21st century standards....right?
Current models kill children in the womb by the millions while protecting the lives of convicted murders. The moral code given to Moses was it's superior. However there are no universal moral codes today. Stalin killed 20 million of his own people legally. Muslims restrict freedoms of every kind legally. China controls it's citizens ability to reproduce legally. There is no universal moral code in the form of law and there exists no moral code superior to the one laid out in the Bible.

For example: The US has had a strong Christian moral tradition until about 1960 when secularism started supplanting it by legal fiat. Since then virtually every moral statistic has gotten worse. School shootings, abortion, one parent households, drug use, gang activity, random shootings, gambling debts, spousal abuse, rape, murder rates, etc...... Not to mention our brave new world has enough weapons pointing at our brothers to eradicate all life as we know it and the moral insanity to have almost done so twice. This is not progress it is moral absurdity. No other book or person has been associated with moral perfection and virtue than the Bible and Christ.

"The character of Jesus has not only been the highest pattern of virtue, but the strongest incentive to its practice, and has exerted so deep an influence, that it may be truly said, that the simple record of three short years of active life has done more to regenerate and to soften mankind, than all the disquisitions of philosophers and than all the exhortations of moralists."
William Lecky One of Britain’s greatest secular historians.

He was the meekest and lowliest of all the sons of men, yet he spoke of coming on the clouds of heaven with the glory of God. He was so austere that evil spirits and demons cried out in terror at his coming, yet he was so genial and winsome and approachable that the children loved to play with him, and the little ones nestled in his arms. His presence at the innocent gaiety of a village wedding was like the presence of sunshine. No one was half so compassionate to sinners, yet no one ever spoke such red hot scorching words about sin. A bruised reed he would not break, his whole life was love, yet on one occasion he demanded of the Pharisees how they ever expected to escape the damnation of hell. He was a dreamer of dreams and a seer of visions, yet for sheer stark realism He has all of our stark realists soundly beaten. He was a servant of all, washing the disciples feet, yet masterfully He strode into the temple, and the hucksters and moneychangers fell over one another to get away from the mad rush and the fire they saw blazing in His eyes. He saved others, yet at the last Himself He did not save. There is nothing in history like the union of contrasts which confronts us in the gospels. The mystery of Jesus is the mystery of divine personality.
Scottish Theologian James Stuart





The only prophecies I see for Jesus are ones made to fit and often involving mistranslation or out of context bits.
How do you misinterpret the claim that the messiah must be David's seed with legal title to kingship. Christ had such ironclad claims to kingship based on geologies from both sides that not even the Jews that arrested him ever made a single charge of his not having clear title to the throne. I was going to give examples that have no potential to have been mistakenly translated but I think it easier for you to go to this link and look at all 350 of them and tell me if you think misinterpretation will even account for a small fraction of the total.
http://www.accordingtothescriptures.org/prophecy/353prophecies.html

Your going to need several dozen reasons on top of misinterpretation and must then prove they are more likely than their being true to do anything with 350 prophecies that only fit one man in history. Keep in mind these are multiplicative and contingent, they are not merely cumulative.


I strongly disagree with the things you claim as historical facts concerning Jesus' life, as being scholar/historian agreed on facts.
Which ones?

Four out of many historical claims are agreed to be accurate by most NT scholars regardless of what side they are on.
1. Christ existed and came on the scene with unprecedented divine authority (or claims to such).
2. He was crucified by the Romans encouraged by the Sanhedrin.
3. His tomb was found empty.
4. He was claimed to have appeared to many people after death including people neutral or even hostile to his message.

Now there is a consensus those events occurred among those best disposed to know. You must provide a better explanation for them than the Gospels do.


I'm not a William Craig fan.
I do not see how that is possible. However he is recognized as a very competent scholar and sits of several prestigious boards. If you reject him I offered you two of the greatest legal minds in history as well. I notice you suspiciously did not take up a single offer for scholarship made. Why not?
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
Take your time.

Ok, I swear I have answered this post already but could not find it so in case I am misremembering I will do so again.

Well it is far more important what is true than the way we see things. I did not like God, Christianity, or Christians at one time and saw everything exactly backwards from the way I eventually found it actually to be.

The divine implies necessary perfection and a logical maximum.
If you consider everything as divine then everything must be perfect.
The natural is not perfect. In fact it appears to have gone horribly wrong.
Conclusion: The natural is not divine.

Regardless heaven would not be heaven if it contains sin. We contain sin. We cannot go to heaven if we contain sin and rebellion. Therefor something external to us must remedy what we cannot. There for you get the salvation model I supplied earlier. If the natural is divine then the divine has no meaning.



He did make us as intended. His desire is love. Love is not love if it is not freely given. We cannot freely give anything unless we have freewill. Freewill cannot exist unless it is free to choose wrongly. Choosing wrongly necessitates bad outcomes. We were built perfectly in line with his purposes. That is why it is said we are the image of God. We are not perfect or a maximum but we are
personal and free moral agents. We are exactly as his purpose mandates we must be.


Current models kill children in the womb by the millions while protecting the lives of convicted murders. The moral code given to Moses was it's superior. However there are no universal moral codes today. Stalin killed 20 million of his own people legally. Muslims restrict freedoms of every kind legally. China controls it's citizens ability to reproduce legally. There is no universal moral code in the form of law and there exists no moral code superior to the one laid out in the Bible.

For example: The US has had a strong Christian moral tradition until about 1960 when secularism started supplanting it by legal fiat. Since then virtually every moral statistic has gotten worse. School shootings, abortion, one parent households, drug use, gang activity, random shootings, gambling debts, spousal abuse, rape, murder rates, etc...... Not to mention our brave new world has enough weapons pointing at our brothers to eradicate all life as we know it and the moral insanity to have almost done so twice. This is not progress it is moral absurdity. No other book or person has been associated with moral perfection and virtue than the Bible and Christ.

"The character of Jesus has not only been the highest pattern of virtue, but the strongest incentive to its practice, and has exerted so deep an influence, that it may be truly said, that the simple record of three short years of active life has done more to regenerate and to soften mankind, than all the disquisitions of philosophers and than all the exhortations of moralists."
William Lecky One of Britain’s greatest secular historians.

He was the meekest and lowliest of all the sons of men, yet he spoke of coming on the clouds of heaven with the glory of God. He was so austere that evil spirits and demons cried out in terror at his coming, yet he was so genial and winsome and approachable that the children loved to play with him, and the little ones nestled in his arms. His presence at the innocent gaiety of a village wedding was like the presence of sunshine. No one was half so compassionate to sinners, yet no one ever spoke such red hot scorching words about sin. A bruised reed he would not break, his whole life was love, yet on one occasion he demanded of the Pharisees how they ever expected to escape the damnation of hell. He was a dreamer of dreams and a seer of visions, yet for sheer stark realism He has all of our stark realists soundly beaten. He was a servant of all, washing the disciples feet, yet masterfully He strode into the temple, and the hucksters and moneychangers fell over one another to get away from the mad rush and the fire they saw blazing in His eyes. He saved others, yet at the last Himself He did not save. There is nothing in history like the union of contrasts which confronts us in the gospels. The mystery of Jesus is the mystery of divine personality.
Scottish Theologian James Stuart





How do you misinterpret the claim that the messiah must be David's seed with legal title to kingship. Christ had such ironclad claims to kingship based on geologies from both sides that not even the Jews that arrested him ever made a single charge of his not having clear title to the throne. I was going to give examples that have no potential to have been mistakenly translated but I think it easier for you to go to this link and look at all 350 of them and tell me if you think misinterpretation will even account for a small fraction of the total.
http://www.accordingtothescriptures.org/prophecy/353prophecies.html

Your going to need several dozen reasons on top of misinterpretation and must then prove they are more likely than their being true to do anything with 350 prophecies that only fit one man in history. Keep in mind these are multiplicative and contingent, they are not merely cumulative.


Which ones?

Four out of many historical claims are agreed to be accurate by most NT scholars regardless of what side they are on.
1. Christ existed and came on the scene with unprecedented divine authority (or claims to such).
2. He was crucified by the Romans encouraged by the Sanhedrin.
3. His tomb was found empty.
4. He was claimed to have appeared to many people after death including people neutral or even hostile to his message.

Now there is a consensus those events occurred among those best disposed to know. You must provide a better explanation for them than the Gospels do.


I do not see how that is possible. However he is recognized as a very competent scholar and sits of several prestigious boards. If you reject him I offered you two of the greatest legal minds in history as well. I notice you suspiciously did not take up a single offer for scholarship made. Why not?

Hey brother, very odd reasoning and faint to logic for the expected responses. It seems like vast majority of your posts in all threads your participate in are a repetitive posting of text-book, personal or other, mental or written. You can't really discuss/debate/argue with such things - leads to endless circling and posturing. You stay convinced and the others look at you in confusion.

Who actually falls for the bait and pawns? It is basically lengthy Christian flavored hypothetical questions with your favorite Christian flavored answers....over and over again. Even the evangelical right wing political and historical views get same treatment.

Do you see the process as repeatedly winning and defending the faith?

I'm not trying to be offensive but attempt to explain why non-christians are not going to take your posts, arguments, responses, etc. very seriously. Only a very small percentage of folks out there are going to be impressed or swayed by the William Craig type of games and tactics - those are usually already followers of similar doctrine and dogma.
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
It is extremely difficult for me to picture a bunch of us Jews following a man who would claim to be the "only son of God" or divine in any way. There simply is no support for such a concept found in Torah or in our long tradition. To me, I think that concept came about later as there's a tendency to accentuate the status of a lost martyr, much like what we saw starting to happen after Gandhi was assassinated.

I believe God does not wish for people to follow traditions of men but to follow Him.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Hey brother, very odd reasoning and faint to logic for the expected responses. It seems like vast majority of your posts in all threads your participate in are a repetitive posting of text-book, personal or other, mental or written. You can't really discuss/debate/argue with such things - leads to endless circling and posturing. You stay convinced and the others look at you in confusion.

Who actually falls for the bait and pawns? It is basically lengthy Christian flavored hypothetical questions with your favorite Christian flavored answers....over and over again. Even the evangelical right wing political and historical views get same treatment.

Do you see the process as repeatedly winning and defending the faith?

I'm not trying to be offensive but attempt to explain why non-christians are not going to take your posts, arguments, responses, etc. very seriously. Only a very small percentage of folks out there are going to be impressed or swayed by the William Craig type of games and tactics - those are usually already followers of similar doctrine and dogma.
That certainly was a strange response. It reminds me of what occurs in almost every debate Craig has. His opponent will at some point admit defeat by saying Craig is a professional and they are only part time debaters. Seems to be a way to acknowledge they were defeated by try and insist it is only because of the tactical superiority of Craig rather than evidence and reasoning.

If we are discussing Christ I have no idea what evidence could possibly be more applicable that what NT scholars think concerning the core historical claims made by the Gospels.

If the quality of the Gospels testimony is discussed what greater methodology than to find the greatest experts on testimony and evidence in history?

If we are talking about the existence of God what can be greater evidence for it than billions who claimed to have experienced it.

If we are discussing morality what is more appropriate than pointing out the obvious fact that the Bible, Christ, and God are associated with moral truth and goodness more than any other beings or texts in history. As well as pointing out the impossibility of having objective moral truth without God.

My claims were perfectly appropriate but I only gave a few of the thousands I could have.

I think you may be doing 1 or 2 things here.

1. You are using my inclusion of some historians and theologians opinions as inapplicable and extrapolating that inapplicability to everything I have ever said. I gave those two excerpts not as arguments but as explanations of what I meant by the Christ's association with morality in history. He obviously is associated with moral truth more than any other person in history but I wanted to explain what those associations look like. They were not arguments, they were support material.

2. Or/and you may see that you have no argumentation that will over turn my claims plus the hundreds yet to be stated. You know your argument will not prevail but like Craig's opponents are attempting to deflect the cause of the loss onto something that makes your case seem stronger than it would appear.

As for Craig. It is non-theists that continuously bring him up. We all know that people only talk about effective "enemies". The US military constantly trained against the USSR in the 60's through the 90's, not the Congo. The USSR was a threat not the Congo. He must be the most effective debater out there because the opposite side will not stop talking about him. It comes down to this: Christians with a philosophic interest find him lethal, non-theists with a philosophic interest will say he is incorrect but still will not stop talking about him. So being generous that would be a wash out. So how can we decide the issue. Well he sits on several college boards, has more than enough degrees, he is extensively published, he is peer reviewed, and he is the target of every atheistic philosopher on the planet. That pretty much settles the tie in my favor.

IOW I think you are setting up an explanation why you could not counter my claims intended to make your position look better than your arguments made them seem. Too bad I thought you could have provided an interesting debate.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I believe God does not wish for people to follow traditions of men but to follow Him.

Does this include traditions attributed to Jesus, the man?

To me, it's important for me to learn from scripture and people, evaluate what I've learned, and then use that which I believe is useful. This is what I do, but each of us have to find out for ourselves what seems to work best for us.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
So you are saying Jesus said he was god therefore he is god and therefor anything he said was said by god. Got it.

That was not the claim you asked how could anyone know that about? This was:
I believe God does not wish for people to follow traditions of men but to follow Him.

How do we know THAT was the question. We can believe we know it because revelation makes this simple mandate very clear.

All biblical revelation is considered theopneustos: God-breathed, i.e. inspired by God
Original Word: θεόπνευστος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: theopneustos
Phonetic Spelling: (theh-op'-nyoo-stos)
Short Definition: God-breathed, inspired by God
Definition: God-breathed, inspired by God, due to the inspiration of God.
Strong's Greek: 2315. ??????????? (theopneustos) -- God-breathed, i.e. inspired by God

So no matter what medium is used to convey it biblical revelation ultimately comes from God.
 
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AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
All biblical revelation is considered theopneustos: God-breathed, i.e. inspired by God

Yeah. All Ambiguousguy-revelation is considered God-breathed.

That's how we know it is straight from God.

So no matter what medium is used to convey it biblical revelation ultimately comes from God.

Right. Whether I speak it, write it, sing it or dance it, all of my revelation ultimately comes from God.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Yeah. All Ambiguousguy-revelation is considered God-breathed.

That's how we know it is straight from God.



Right. Whether I speak it, write it, sing it or dance it, all of my revelation ultimately comes from God.
That was a point to distinguish between the word of God and the traditions of man. We believe we are following the word of God. Unless you can prove we are not we are warranted in our belief.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
That was a point to distinguish between the word of God and the traditions of man. We believe we are following the word of God. Unless you can prove we are not we are warranted in our belief.

OK. So I am following the Word of God, and you are claiming to follow the Word of God.

And we believe oppositely about the Word of God.

So if you cannot prove that I'm not following the Word of God, then I am warranted in my belief (which means you are wrong).

Can you prove that I'm not following the Word of God?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
OK. So I am following the Word of God, and you are claiming to follow the Word of God.

And we believe oppositely about the Word of God.

So if you cannot prove that I'm not following the Word of God, then I am warranted in my belief (which means you are wrong).

Can you prove that I'm not following the Word of God?
Being warranted in a belief is not the same as being justified in a belief.

1. To be justified in holding a belief it only need to be free of defeaters. IOW if we grant man the right to choose his destiny (which at least MY GOD does) he then has the intrinsic right or justification to believe in anything that is not show to be false.
2. Warranted is a slightly higher level. It requires we have a belief in the best explanation or one that for special reason we think is the best.



However neither one of these really apply to whether you or I are right. I claim the revelation I hold as being true is far more explanatory, logically consistent, historically consistent, has a much greater pedigree, is more comprehensive, well established, and better evidenced than yours, over all.

I made no claim you do not have the right or reasons for believing what you do. Actually IMO opinion you do not have a religion that you actually believe is true yourself. I think you have an informal philosophy that is constructed to allow you to do and think as you wish and feel justified in doing so, and that it was constructed without even regard for truth. It also exists to create a false credibility for your views based on association with things of the same type that actually have real credibility. IT is like the popular saying "I am spiritual" which actually means nothing but is an appeal to credibility by association. I believe it is an insincere tool constructed by you to facilitate what you wish to do, but as I said I believe you certainly have the right to choose it and sink or swim by it.
 

Contemplative Cat

energy formation
God speaks to people in their heart. God the source of revelation, all men can connect directly to God.
Religion is a mixture of God and mans interpretation of God.
James the Just interpretation was considered heretical, but he was the first Bishop of Jerusalem and helped Christianity survive.

To say Only follow the religion of God not man, then to follow the philosophy & words written by man is contradictory.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Does this include traditions attributed to Jesus, the man?

To me, it's important for me to learn from scripture and people, evaluate what I've learned, and then use that which I believe is useful. This is what I do, but each of us have to find out for ourselves what seems to work best for us.

I believe Jesus has said in His own way that he is God in the flesh. That is not a tradition but the Word of God (which is one thing that Jesus is called).

I believe that I knew God mainly from OT texts and personal experience before I knew Jesus was one with Him but I also believe that God as I knew Him led me to Jesus. I was not searching for Jesus or God since I already knew God. However I believe searching on ones own without God as a guide can only lead to frustration.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I believe Jesus has said in His own way that he is God in the flesh. That is not a tradition but the Word of God (which is one thing that Jesus is called).

I believe that I knew God mainly from OT texts and personal experience before I knew Jesus was one with Him but I also believe that God as I knew Him led me to Jesus. I was not searching for Jesus or God since I already knew God. However I believe searching on ones own without God as a guide can only lead to frustration.

Do you accept that there are others in other faiths that may be finding their way towards God as well?
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
1. To be justified in holding a belief it only need to be free of defeaters. IOW if we grant man the right to choose his destiny (which at least MY GOD does) he then has the intrinsic right or justification to believe in anything that is not show to be false.

Huh?

If we grant man the right to choose his destiny? Huh? Who?

The right to believe anything that isn't shown to be false? Yikes.

Your writings seem really, really seem confused to me, robin. Even incoherent. For one quick example, I've shown virtually all of your beliefs to be false, over and over again, and yet you seem to think that you have justification for believing them.

However neither one of these really apply to whether you or I are right. I claim the revelation I hold as being true is far more explanatory, logically consistent, historically consistent, has a much greater pedigree, is more comprehensive, well established, and better evidenced than yours, over all.

Sure. But you're mistaken. My revelation is obviously superior to any other which has ever been claimed in the history of humanity. Mine actually makes sense, after all, in a way which none of the others can even touch. Certainly the Abrahamic faiths have no chance of keeping up with me in the matter of sensibility.

Actually IMO opinion you do not have a religion that you actually believe is true yourself. I think you have an informal philosophy that is constructed to allow you to do and think as you wish and feel justified in doing so, and that it was constructed without even regard for truth.

Oh, my. That might have made me cry a little if I thought you had the slightest familiarity with my philosophy.

Well, not really. Even if you knew something about what I believe, you still couldn't make me cry by insulting it. Not at your current level of debate performance.

It also exists to create a false credibility for your views based on association with things of the same type that actually have real credibility.

See what I mean? You say such weird stuff which no rational person can follow. So even if you understood a little about my philosophy, you'd still have a heck of a time trying to express its weaknesses in a way which people could understand.

I don't mean to offend. I really don't. Just saying.
 
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