Did Jesus say he was God???

[paarsurrey]

Did Jesus say he was God???

The real and historical Jesus never claimed that he was literally a god or son of god.
The superstitious scribes might have misunderstood him.

Regards

 

[John Martin]

I believe this is an interesting view and that I would agree with much of it but the ideas about the Son of God mystify me a bit.

I beleive we are not divine at the source which is why Jesus is different from us.

I don't believe this is unfortunate. Since God has manifested Himself as Jesus then it makes sense that the experience proceed from Him.

Thank you for your response:There are two statements of Jesus that constitute the good news of Jesus: I am the Light of the world and You are the light of the world. These two statements are the two sides of the same coin.Christian tradition has emphasized one side and neglected completely the other side. This negligence created a spiritual apartheid between Christ and Christians. Jesus Christ opened this possibility to every human being but Christianity closed it very soon.

 

[Desert Snake]

Thank you for your response:There are two statements of Jesus that constitute the good news of Jesus: I am the Light of the world and You are the light of the world. These two statements are the two sides of the same coin.Christian tradition has emphasized one side and neglected completely the other side. This negligence created a spiritual apartheid between Christ and Christians. Jesus Christ opened this possibility to every human being but Christianity closed it very soon.

Jesus/God saying this: Valid commandment


'Normal person' saying this: just an opinion.


Without Deity, Jesus's words become nothing more than 'ideas' that can be REFUTED by secular reasoning. This is the big difference.

 

[1robin]

Do trees announce their being trees or do they do what trees do?
Did Jesus forgive sins, raise the dead, claim to be eternal, and to have everything created through him and for him and to be a occupant of the throne of God. If so? Would a announcement have been anti-climactic?

 

[1robin]

Jesus/God saying this: Valid commandment


'Normal person' saying this: just an opinion.


Without Deity, Jesus's words become nothing more than 'ideas' that can be REFUTED by secular reasoning. This is the big difference.

However his being raised from the dead puts the fathers stamp of approval on everything he claimed. Even the miraculous and titular claims he made.

 

[paarsurrey]

Did Jesus say he was God???

The real and historical Jesus never claimed that he was literally a god or son of god.

The superstitious scribes might have misunderstood Jesus.

The scribes of Gospels were anonymous so nobody can claim the accounts they wrote if they correctly understood them, witnessed the events and or simply invented a fiction.

Regards

 

[Desert Snake]

However his being raised from the dead puts the fathers stamp of approval on everything he claimed. Even the miraculous and titular claims he made.

To me, it's tomato/tomahto. If you worship Jesus, you worship God /to worship the Son is to worship the Father/, and if you worship the Father you would then worship the Son. Seems like the same worshipping going on to me.

 

[`mud]

In what galaxy is heaven found, or is it everywhere ?
From what are the thrones made ?
How do the clouds get there ?
~
And on and on, are there really paths made of gold ? And from what are the gates made ?
~
And on and on.....
~
'mud

 

[Muffled]

Thank you for your response:There are two statements of Jesus that constitute the good news of Jesus: I am the Light of the world and You are the light of the world. These two statements are the two sides of the same coin.Christian tradition has emphasized one side and neglected completely the other side. This negligence created a spiritual apartheid between Christ and Christians. Jesus Christ opened this possibility to every human being but Christianity closed it very soon.

Any news from God is good news but I don't think this fits exactly but I think it can be included by inference.

I don't believe this is true in the Protestant Reformation and I am not informed enough of Roman Catholic and Orthodox tradition to comment.

 

[Muffled]

Did Jesus say he was God???

The real and historical Jesus never claimed that he was literally a god or son of god.

The superstitious scribes might have misunderstood Jesus.

The scribes of Gospels were anonymous so nobody can claim the accounts they wrote if they correctly understood them, witnessed the events and or simply invented a fiction.

Regards

I believe this is pure fantasy.

I believe John understood Jesus very well and it is his account that most supports the divinity of Jesus. Then Paul who never met Jesus except as a bright light by the Holy Spirit confirms John's understanding and I by the Holy Spirit also confirm it.

 

[Muffled]

In what galaxy is heaven found, or is it everywhere ?
From what are the thrones made ?
How do the clouds get there ?
~
And on and on, are there really paths made of gold ? And from what are the gates made ?
~
And on and on.....
~
'mud

I believe this is off topic but I believe the galaxies rotate sphericlly around Heaven which is at the core.

I believe they are golden colored. I believe the gates are like pearls but are made of a veery hard plastic. Being translucent allows those on the inside to identify approaching craft for entry.

 

[`mud]

I was just wondering where Jesus was, and if he was thinking if he was God or not, up in there, or out there, or in the center of everything.
Everything spinning around and around the golden paths of heaven.
OK...got that !
~
Really !!!!!!! God or not God ! Still not understanding !
~
'mud

 

[John Martin]

The question we need to ask is: who is a human being? There are many answers given to this question. In the prophetic religions like Judaism, Christianity,Islam and Bahai: there is only one God, one infinite Reality. Creation is the creature of God and human beings are basically creatures of God and there is gulf between God and creatures.
Christianity has two positionsne for Christians and another for Jesus Christ.
Christians are creatures of God but Jesus Christ is not a creatures of God. He is the incarnation of God or manifestation of God and ultimately one with God. He is fully human and fully divine.
In Hinduism there are several answers given to the question, who is a human being?
Hinduism does not believe in a creator God. Hence there are several theories of how the creation came into being.
1. Human beings are completely and essentially different from God. Creation and human beings are not created by God but they are there from the beginning but essentially different( Dvaita system of Madhva).
2. Human beings and creation are not creatures of God. They are the manifestations of God. They are emanations from God. God is the material cause of creation. Creation and human beings constitute the body of God. Yet there is a subtle difference between God and creation which includes human beings. Human beings have blissful experience with God but they can never claim to be one with God.( Visista advaita system of Ramanuja).
3. The third position is that human beings are ultimately one with God. They can claim to be one with God and say I and God are one.( This is the position of advaita Vedanta.
4. The fourth position is that human beings are both different from God and non-different from God, they are both human and divine. This is the position held by dvaita-advaita system of Nimbarka and Aicntya bedaabeda system of Caitanya, which is followed by the Hare Krishna moment. The difference between these systems that dvaita-advaita gives importance to both difference and non-difference and Acintya Bedaabeda gives importance to difference.

It is very difficult in the Biblical tradition to claim to be one with God. Jews and Muslims believe that Jesus Christ is only a human being, like any other human being. They do not accept the belief either he is the incarnation of God or one with God.

The position of Christians on the identity of Jesus is very close to the Dvaita-advaita system of Hinduism. He is fully human and fully divine.
The only difference is that in the dvaita-advaita system this experience is possible to everyone whereas in Christianity this experience is limited to Jesus Christ only.
Is Jesus Christ God? He is fully God in one level and he is fully human in another level. He opened this possibility to everyone.

 

[paarsurrey]

I believe this is pure fantasy.


I believe John understood Jesus very well and it is his account that most supports the divinity of Jesus. Then Paul who never met Jesus except as a bright light by the Holy Spirit confirms John's understanding and I by the Holy Spirit also confirm it.

It is a further proof that Christians believe a mythical Jesus. If you speak of the Gospel of John; that is a book of anonymous authorship, named after John just for identity.

It is not a reliable book for the accounts of a real Jesus.

Gospel of John - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Chapter 21 states that the book derives from the testimony of the "disciple whom Jesus loved" and early churchtradition identified him as John the Apostle, one of Jesus' Twelve Apostles. The gospel is closely related in style and content to the three surviving Epistles of John such that commentators treat the four books,[1] along with the Book of Revelation, as a single body of Johannine literature. According to most modern scholars, however, the apostle John was not the author of any of these books.[2]

Within this view of a complex and multi-layered history, it is meaningless to speak of a single "author" of John, but the title perhaps belongs best to the evangelist who came at the end of this process.[24] The final composition's comparatively late date, and its insistence upon Jesus as a divine being walking the earth in human form, renders it highly problematical to scholars who attempt to evaluate Jesus' life in terms of literal historical truth.[25][26]"

Gospel of John - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We can conclude that the Gospels don't present accounts of a real Jesus but of a fictional or mythical Jesus whom the Christians wrongly believe to be literal or physical god or son of god.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Did Jesus say he was God???

Jesus created nothing; everything existed before his birth from Mary; how could a real Jesus claim to be a literal or physical god?

Regards

 

[1robin]

To me, it's tomato/tomahto. If you worship Jesus, you worship God /to worship the Son is to worship the Father/, and if you worship the Father you would then worship the Son. Seems like the same worshipping going on to me.

Personally I agree with this sentiment. God or not, I must be born again based on Christ's sacrifice. It's not really worth much debate and I don't give it too much.

Technically though I think the case that Christ is one of the persons that compose the being God.

 

[1robin]

Did Jesus say he was God???

Jesus created nothing; everything existed before his birth from Mary; how could a real Jesus claim to be a literal or physical god?

Regards

What the heck? Are you familiar with the book or story your denying?

A few verses about Christ:

New International Version
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

The Supremacy of Christ
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.…


Christ merely assumed human form when Mary delivered. He did not come into being then. He never didn't exist. He did miracles in his name. He raised the dead by his power, he forgave sin on his authority. Many times he thanked the father, assuming his role as an example for us, but demons trembled when he drew near and credited him with the power to judge them himself.

 

[paarsurrey]

What the heck? Are you familiar with the book or story your denying?

A few verses about Christ:

New International Version
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

The Supremacy of Christ
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.…


Christ merely assumed human form when Mary delivered. He did not come into being then. He never didn't exist. He did miracles in his name. He raised the dead by his power, he forgave sin on his authority. Many times he thanked the father, assuming his role as an example for us, but demons trembled when he drew near and credited him with the power to judge them himself.

I don't agree with you.

NT Bible is errant; written by errant scribes. It is neither authored by the One-True- God whom Jesus used to call God-the-Father nor by Jesus himself. It is not even dictated by Jesus; not even written by men authorized in writing by Jesus to write it on his behalf.

Gospels are not work of inspiration either; angels cannot inspire such incorrect information as we find many contradictory accounts of Jesus’ life in the Bible.
It is wrong to say that it was written by person who got inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not inspire to errant and sinful persons. The contradictions show, if at all, it is the evil spirit in them which inspired them.
Gospels did not record event of crucifixion and resurrection by the eye-witnesses; it is written that they all deserted Jesus and fled away.

Bible presents Jesus as god; on what basis?

If it is on the basis of Paul or Gospels; that makes it a circular argument and Christianity reduces to a misnomer; it should be named after Paul.

The reasons or arguments should be from elsewhere; from a book or Gospel written by Jesus himself or dictated by Jesus, if it is to be truly called Christianity.

Regards

 

[`mud]

hey Paarsurrry,
Right on....almost.
I'd give you more kudo's but I just did, anyway good posts.
~
'mud

 

[Muffled]

I was just wondering where Jesus was, and if he was thinking if he was God or not, up in there, or out there, or in the center of everything.
Everything spinning around and around the golden paths of heaven.
OK...got that !
~
Really !!!!!!! God or not God ! Still not understanding !
~
'mud

I believe No-one knows exactly where He is. God can only think of Himself as God.

I believe He is not physically in Heaven in the center of everything but God is spirit and can appear anywhere He wishes in any way He wishes.