Did Jesus say he was God???

[Dirty Penguin]

You are correct.It does not mention blood transfusions.That medical practice was not invented yet.What it does mention is that you should not eat blood.Gods Word mentions that the blood is the life.God stresses this.If an Israelite or a foreigner who was staying with an Israelite camp was to do this,they were cut off.If God commanded that you are not to take in blood into your stomach than that means no blood was permitted at all.The NT says to abstain from blood.

Acts 15:20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

Leviticus 17:10 "'I will set my face against any Israelite or any foreigner residing among them who eats blood, and I will cut them off from the people.

Deuteronomy 12:23 Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life, and you shall not eat the life with the flesh.


Genesis 9:4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it.


Acts 15:20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

Deuteronomy 12:16 But you must not eat the blood; pour it out on the ground like water.


1 Samuel 14:33 Then someone said to Saul, "Look, the men are sinning against the LORD by eating meat that has blood in it." "You have broken faith," he said. "Roll a large stone over here at once."

So from all of these scriptures we can clearly see how God feels about blood.

Whether it is ingested into to your stomach or put into your veins,it is unacceptable to God.Whether it is a blood sausage or a blood transfusion,its wrong.

I don't think christians should be in the business of quoting any othe the laws wriiten in the old testament if they themselves aren't following all 600+ laws......The laws say not to eat pork or shelfish yet many of you do so I don't get why you guys quote the laws if you yourselves aren't following them.....

 

[Dirty Penguin]

In the old days heathen tribes used to drink blood or slurp up congealed lumps of it, so of course God had to tell them to stop that revolting habit and eat something wholesome instead like fish and chips.
But JW's like to think they know more than the rest of us poor shmucks, so they ban transfusions, just like they ban Christmas trees, Easter eggs, birthday cakes and crosses, you couldn't make it up..

Anyway the New T trashes the Old T's blood verses-
Jesus said - "What goes into a man's mouth does not make him unclean" (Matt 15:11)

To my knowledge this was about one washing their hands before eating. This wasn't a blank check from a devout Jew (Yeshua) giving people permission to eat what they wanted.

Paul said - "I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself." (Romans 14:14)

Consider his audience. Paul took his message to the gentiles...many of whom were of different faiths. Part of his mission was to convert people to this new christian movement so he is hardly an authority on Judaic Law.

 

[Nada]

In the old days heathen tribes used to drink blood or slurp up congealed lumps of it, so of course God had to tell them to stop that revolting habit and eat something wholesome instead like fish and chips.
But JW's like to think they know more than the rest of us poor shmucks, so they ban transfusions, just like they ban Christmas trees, Easter eggs, birthday cakes and crosses, you couldn't make it up..

Anyway the New T trashes the Old T's blood verses-
Jesus said - "What goes into a man's mouth does not make him unclean" (Matt 15:11)
Paul said - "I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself." (Romans 14:14)

JW's do not think they know more than everybody else.Its just that they read and study thoroughly on a daily basis and dedicate their entire lives to God.So because of this they are able to understand what God is saying in His Word.They do not brag or put it in peoples face.When questions arise they bring it to the persons attention.If you feel animosity towards the JW's it might be because of a personal issue you yourself have with them.Your take on them always seems negative.You might want to sort that out if you really intend to try to be a true Christian.
John 13:35 "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

If you want to celebrate false holidays with pagan ties then thats your choice.Everyone has free will.As for the JW's they choose not to practice such things.Thats their choice.It does not originate with God so they do not do it.When thorough studying is done its easy to see that it is of pagan origin.For instance Halloween.If you seriously think there is no harm in practicing this ultimate pagan holiday then you have not yet come to understand anything about God.Im not trying to put you down brother,I'm just trying to open up your eyes to the whole matter.


You are truly mistaken. Jesus said,"What goes into a man's mouth does not make him unclean" (Matt 15:11)
When he said this to the Pharisees, and to the crowd, he was speaking of something entirely different.The Pharisees were making a big deal because Jesus and the disciples did not wash their hands.When Jesus' disciples asked him to explain further to them a out the parable Jesus replied,

“Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17 “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”

So as you can see this passage has nothing to do with what you stated.



Paul said - "I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself." (Romans 14:14)
Here Paul is obviously speaking about FOOD NOT BLOOD...........

You stated,"Anyway the New T trashes the Old T's blood verses-"
What an odd thing to say coming from "Christian."

You are incorrect Paul is obviously speaking of food and not blood.

You are very incorrect for it goes on to say in the NT what the OT has said all along.This is confirmed by James the brother of Jesus.

Acts 15:19-21. "19 Therefore, my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, 20 but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood. 21 For from ancient times Moses has had those who preach him in city after city, because he is read aloud in the synagogues on every sabbath.”

 

[icebuddy]

Thats goes to show you they are being led by a force.

Acts 4:13 When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

Not sure what you are exactly trying to Say. Looks like you are using a passage to excuse the lack of knowledge by NWT translators. If so, that's very odd.

If you keep reading it has many scholars who acknowledge this work as being very accurate.
Here is an example.

Professor Benjamin Kedar, a Professor of History and Director of the Institute for Advanced Studies at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, said in 1989: "In my linguistic research in connection with the Hebrew Bible and translations, I often refer to the English edition of what is known as the New World Translation. In so doing, I find my feeling repeatedly confirmed that this work [the NWT Old Testament] reflects an honest endeavor to achieve an understanding of the text that is as accurate as possible."[64]

As for quotes by other people you like the fact that there schooled, but your original quote up top says that you support unschooled...? However there probably are people that will support anything anywhere. I personally believe the NWT is a good translation in part with personal paraphrases here in there indicated by brackets that change the whole dynamic of the passage. Most of the biblical scholars don't agree that the NWT is a good translation in full

 

[Nada]

Not sure what you are exactly trying to Say. Looks like you are using a passage to excuse the lack of knowledge by NWT translators. If so, that's very odd.



As for quotes by other people you like the fact that there schooled, but your original quote up top says that you support unschooled...? However there probably are people that will support anything anywhere. I personally believe the NWT is a good translation in part with personal paraphrases here in there indicated by brackets that change the whole dynamic of the passage. Most of the biblical scholars don't agree that the NWT is a good translation in full

In other words,if these men were not fully educated, then it would be extraordinary that they put together such an accurate Bible that caught the attention of scholars.For instance the scholar in Jerusalem.

[B]Professor Benjamin Kedar, a Professor of History and Director of the Institute for Advanced Studies at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, said in 1989: "In my linguistic research in connection with the Hebrew Bible and translations, I often refer to the English edition of what is known as the New World Translation. In so doing, I find my feeling repeatedly confirmed that this work [the NWT Old Testament] reflects an honest endeavor to achieve an understanding of the text that is as accurate as possible."[64][/B]

If these ordinary uneducated men can put together an accurate bible then it shows you how Gods holy spirit is helping them accomplish this.Just as it says in Acts 4:13. When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

What's odd about that?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Translation_of_the_Holy_Scriptures

 

[icebuddy]

First of all, there are many verses whereas Jesus clearly implies he's not God, such as his saying that he knows not when the end-times will occur and only the Father knows for sure. Some here have cited other such verses, so I need not go any further with this point. If God knows but Jesus doesn't, then there is no equality.

It is the Christians belief that Jesus emptied himself of something to become man. Jesus was fully human yet coming from Full deity. Jesus didn't know where Lazarus was buried when the exact time of the end was if a tree had fruit or not yet he could see people without seeing them and know things that no one could know. Now that Jesus is in heaven he knows everything. So if Jesus was God alone walking the planet there would've been no reason for him to empty himself of anything but yet he did empty himself of something and took on flesh to become like you and me. Either way Jesus for sure did not want us setting dates of his return.

Secondly, imagine if I tell you "I am God"; what do you think about this? Now imagine being brought up in a religion that states that God is not incorporeal.

God appeared to people in physical forms before angel of the Lord burning bush and others. Jesus is the image of the invisible God The exact representation of God in human flesh. Jesus I don't think ever said he was savior, God, angel or anything he let the believer decide who he was. All throughout the Old Testament people wanted it image to worship to look to, we now have Jesus Christ. The image of the invisible God to worship praise and honor.

Thirdly, what I do believe we're most likely seeing is the early church belief that Jesus is of God, which doesn't mean he is God. When you read the references towards Jesus, keep this in mind.

Jesus is definitely of God. He is so much of God that he's God. Can one say to God's image you are not God. Even the father quotes Psalms 102 versus 25 through 27 and says that was Jesus. Hebrews 1: 10 through 13. If anyone were to say who was it in the beginning that laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the work of your hands they will not perish you will remain they will wear out like a garment you will roll them up like a robe you will remain the same and Your Year's will never end. For sure every Jew would say that is God.

Fourthly, we have to remember that scriptures reflect the various author's concepts, which by the nature of the subject material tends to be subjective. After Gandhi died, for example, many Hindus basically began to deify him, but that didn't take because Gandhi had made it clear he was only a man.

The difference is Jesus is the image of the invisible God. The name above all names. The exact radiance of gods glory and the exact representation of his being. Jesus holds everything together. Jesus is unique in a way from all others
Even the Old Testament calls him mighty God The same mighty God that Jehovah was Called.

Jesus is pretty much portrayed as being both a new Adam and new Moses, neither of which were God of course, but which reflects a symbolism used extensively in our writings. The Suffering Servant accounts in Isaiah are not about Jesus, but the authors draw a parallel that Jews back then generally would understand as being symbolic. Etc.

I guess that's what makes you different from me our beliefs are totally different but similar. I disagree about the writings in Isaiah.

I leave you with Isaiah 40:18 and 2Corinthians 4:4-6

 

[JM2C]

I don't think christians should be in the business of quoting any othe the laws wriiten in the old testament if they themselves aren't following all 600+ laws......The laws say not to eat pork or shelfish yet many of you do so I don't get why you guys quote the laws if you yourselves aren't following them.....

I agree with you on this one 100% especially when it comes to tithing that some of them use Malachi 3:8-10 to collect money from the congregation.

1Ti 1:7 They want to be known as teachers of the law of Moses, but they don’t know what they are talking about, even though they seem so confident.

 

[icebuddy]

This is the trinitarian belief/interpretation. Not all Christians believe this.

I guess that begs the question what do you believe Jesus emptied himself of in order to become a man?

It only throws you off and those who believe the way you do.

Do you believe Jesus emptied himself? please explain your interpretation of Philippians 2:5-8

Again, I'm not arguing he was an angel. The only thing I offered is that he "existed" in heave with his god before his god sent him. In fact he said he came not to do his will but the will of his father (his god). It's the biblical Yeshua that makes the destinction that he and his god are not the same.......

If Jesus was with God you have to believe he was something. What do you believe he was an angel, God, imagination, A thought... And yes the second Jesus became a man the father became his God. Jesus was not an atheist. He became a Jew a man just like every man. What we are talking about is what was Jesus before this happened. It is the Christian belief that God our judge took off his robe and bore our penalty as a man. Dying in our place. I agree the Jesus and the father are not the same. Hence the Trinity

No because the biblical Yeshua never expresses himself in this manner. He explicitly said that all authority in heaven and on Earth was "given" to him. If he is "God" before appearing in the flesh then how could he be given authority. One would think that "God" already has authority and that authority can neither be given or taken away...no? So that right there...the biblical Yeshua is telling you plainly he and his god are separate be it before being sent and after his ascension (according to the bible)...

We believe Jesus had all authority gave it up to became a man and then was given it back. How many times do you think Jesus was given authority? once twice three times? He was only given authority after he was raised from the dead. Before he became a man he always had authority. So much so that the father quotes passages of YHWH and applies them directly to Jesus.

 

[icebuddy]

In other words,if these men were not fully educated, then it would be extraordinary that they put together such an accurate Bible that caught the attention of scholars.For instance the scholar in Jerusalem.

Okay I get it. I don't think so it is my personal belief that they pieced together from other Bibles of selected passages that they liked and When no bible passage agreed with their thoughts they just put brackets around and paraphrase. Many Jehovah witnesses I talk to today do the same thing, pick and choose Bibles passages out of different Bibles that agree with them not using the context of one certain Bible. It would not be hard for me to write a Bible having no Hebrew or Greek. Don't forget that they used Greek to English Bibles that were already available and Septuagint. They published a K I T of the Greek Scriptures and it clearly shows that they used other peoples sources. I would suggest any Jehovah witness to read that Bible published by the watch Tower.

If these ordinary uneducated men can put together an accurate bible then it shows you how Gods holy spirit is helping them accomplish this.Just as it says in Acts 4:13. When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

There's another side to the coin. As JW would say the Trinity is a scheme of the Devil. I too could say that maybe it wasn't the Holy Spirit but maybe something else. In the beginning the Jehovah witness used to use a spirit medium Johannes Greber to help provide the renderings and translations they came up with. What spirits exactly did he contact to help translate? Do you see how others can see this?

What's odd about that?

Now could you see how odd it would look.

 

[outhouse]

Consider his audience. Paul took his message to the gentiles...many of whom were of different faiths. Part of his mission was to convert people to this new christian movement so he is hardly an authority on Judaic Law.

Yet Paul knew the law pretty well.


BUT, Judaic law was followed differently by all Jews from this period.

There was no orthodox view of any kind.

They were multi cultural and had very diverse definition of Judaism and adherence to these laws.


One could be a gentile and just swear off pagan gods and be considered Jewish just turning to monotheism.

Judaism was broken up into so many diveres sects one could write a book and not describe all the differences.


Sorry brother not preaching to you as much as adding to how correct you are

 

[outhouse]

I don't think so it is my personal belief

.

Agreed, not really your personal belief.

The trinity defies logic and reason as written, and you didn't make it orthodoxy. A court hearing/council did that


This was just ancient mens attempt to keep monotheism with multiple deities.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

JW's do not think they know more than everybody else..

Yes they do, they're a vanity cult who like to think they're a cut above the rest of us poor slobs, look-
"If you try to study the Bible without our help, you go into darkness" (JW Watchtower magazine, 15 Sep 1910, p 298 )

 

[JM2C]

You are correct.

It does not mention blood transfusions.
That medical practice was not invented yet.
What it does mention is that you should not eat blood.
Gods Word mentions that the blood is the life.
God stresses this.
If an Israelite or a foreigner who was staying with an Israelite camp was to do this,they were cut off.
If God commanded that you are not to take in blood into your stomach than that means no blood was permitted at all.
The NT says to abstain from blood.

Acts 15:20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

The purpose of the letter was to tell the Gentile Christians to abstain from four pagan idolatrous practices. They don’t want the Gentile Christians to practice these four pagan rituals with their new belief, and that is, Christianity.

IOW, paganism and Christianity should NOT mix together. Christianity is a belief by itself and not in any way should be a part or a sect of any other beliefs, or should not mix with either paganism or Judaism/Law of Moses.

This is what the Jerusalem Council was all about –Read Acts 15:1. A Christian today can drink/eat [not human blood] or transfer human blood from one person to another as long as s/he is not offering this blood transfusion to any idols.

Mixing Acts 15:20 with the Law of Moses is like going back to why they had these arguments in the first place.

Judaizers in verse 1 of Acts 15 wanted the Gentile Christians to follow Judaism/Law of Moses, but Paul and Barnabas argued with them that Christianity was not, or never, was in any way under Judaism, or IOW, they, the Gentiles/proselytes or non-proselyte Gentiles that became Christians, were not proselytes to Judaism anymore, but in by itself a belief, and that is, Christianity, not with paganism nor with Judaism.

 

[Nada]

Okay I get it. I don't think so it is my personal belief that they pieced together from other Bibles of selected passages that they liked and When no bible passage agreed with their thoughts they just put brackets around and paraphrase. Many Jehovah witnesses I talk to today do the same thing, pick and choose Bibles passages out of different Bibles that agree with them not using the context of one certain Bible. It would not be hard for me to write a Bible having no Hebrew or Greek. Don't forget that they used Greek to English Bibles that were already available and Septuagint. They published a K I T of the Greek Scriptures and it clearly shows that they used other peoples sources. I would suggest any Jehovah witness to read that Bible published by the watch Tower.



There's another side to the coin. As JW would say the Trinity is a scheme of the Devil. I too could say that maybe it wasn't the Holy Spirit but maybe something else. In the beginning the Jehovah witness used to use a spirit medium Johannes Greber to help provide the renderings and translations they came up with. What spirits exactly did he contact to help translate? Do you see how others can see this?



Now could you see how odd it would look.

Ok.Thanks

 

[Nada]

Yes they do, they're a vanity cult who like to think they're a cut above the rest of us poor slobs, look-
"If you try to study the Bible without our help, you go into darkness" (JW Watchtower magazine, 15 Sep 1910, p 298 )

It seems you are your own worst enemy.You call yourself a poor slob and others too.It seems you already have a low self esteem problem to begin with.Maybe your hate for JW's is really self hate directed in the wrong direction.You seem to have some issues brother.It is not very Christians like.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

It seems you are your own worst enemy.You call yourself a poor slob and others too.It seems you already have a low self esteem problem to begin with.Maybe your hate for JW's is really self hate directed in the wrong direction.You seem to have some issues brother.It is not very Christians like.

I don't hate JW's, I regard them as misguided chumps with Satan's fingerprints all over them, and as long as you come here trying to foist off their propaganda on us and calling me names, you can expect to get roughed up a little..
If you're looking for a fight you've come to the right boy!
Waddya say Rock?

"C'mon, it's true, but that don't bother me, I just wanna prove somethin', I ain't no bum, it don't matter if I lose, don't matter if Shuttle opens my head.
The only thing I wanna do is go the distance, that's all.
Nobody's ever gone fifteen rounds with Shuttle.
If I go them fifteen rounds, an' that bell rings an' I'm still standin', I'm gonna know then I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood"...

 

[Nada]

I don't hate JW's, I regard them as misguided chumps with Satan's fingerprints all over them, and as long as you come here trying to foist off their propaganda on us and calling me names, you can expect to get roughed up a little..
If you're looking for a fight you've come to the right boy!
Waddya say Rock?

"C'mon, it's true, but that don't bother me, I just wanna prove somethin', I ain't no bum, it don't matter if I lose, don't matter if Shuttle opens my head.
The only thing I wanna do is go the distance, that's all.
Nobody's ever gone fifteen rounds with Shuttle.
If I go them fifteen rounds, an' that bell rings an' I'm still standin', I'm gonna know then I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood"...

You seem to be the total opposite of a Christian, brother.You want to fight and say all kinds of weird things to me and others.You represent yourself.Not God.Thats pretty disrespectful of you to call people chumps.Your childish and disrespectful ways just got you an honorary place on the ignore list.Don't worry you are amongst friends.Goodbye now.:tsk:

 

[Shuttlecraft]

..Your childish and disrespectful ways just got you an honorary place on the ignore list..

I even gave you a frubal a while back!
Huh, you try to be nice to people (sniffle)..
Ignore me then, I don't care because now I can talk about you and your JW pals behind your back..

"psst...psst...psst..."

 

[metis]

I don't think christians should be in the business of quoting any othe the laws wriiten in the old testament if they themselves aren't following all 600+ laws......The laws say not to eat pork or shelfish yet many of you do so I don't get why you guys quote the laws if you yourselves aren't following them.....

And this is an important point as all too often we run across this picking-and-choosing of which of the Laws some want to follow, and this includes many churches as well.

 

[metis]

It is the Christians belief that Jesus emptied himself of something to become man. Jesus was fully human yet coming from Full deity. Jesus didn't know where Lazarus was buried when the exact time of the end was if a tree had fruit or not yet he could see people without seeing them and know things that no one could know. Now that Jesus is in heaven he knows everything. So if Jesus was God alone walking the planet there would've been no reason for him to empty himself of anything but yet he did empty himself of something and took on flesh to become like you and me. Either way Jesus for sure did not want us setting dates of his return.

God appeared to people in physical forms before angel of the Lord burning bush and others. Jesus is the image of the invisible God The exact representation of God in human flesh. Jesus I don't think ever said he was savior, God, angel or anything he let the believer decide who he was. All throughout the Old Testament people wanted it image to worship to look to, we now have Jesus Christ. The image of the invisible God to worship praise and honor.

Jesus is definitely of God. He is so much of God that he's God. Can one say to God's image you are not God. Even the father quotes Psalms 102 versus 25 through 27 and says that was Jesus. Hebrews 1: 10 through 13. If anyone were to say who was it in the beginning that laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the work of your hands they will not perish you will remain they will wear out like a garment you will roll them up like a robe you will remain the same and Your Year's will never end. For sure every Jew would say that is God.

The difference is Jesus is the image of the invisible God. The name above all names. The exact radiance of gods glory and the exact representation of his being. Jesus holds everything together. Jesus is unique in a way from all others
Even the Old Testament calls him mighty God The same mighty God that Jehovah was Called.

I guess that's what makes you different from me our beliefs are totally different but similar. I disagree about the writings in Isaiah.

I leave you with Isaiah 40:18 and 2Corinthians 4:4-6

Let me recommend that the above could be dramatically improved by putting this before many of the sentences above: "I believe...", or some words equivalent to that. Secondly, it's not a bad idea to remember that all scripture is subjective. Thirdly, it's also not a bad idea to remember that when you are using the "O.T.", we wrote it, studied it, commented on it for centuries, translated it, and passed it on to others long before Jesus ever set foot on this Earth. It just amazes me that some seemingly think we're illiterate dolts.


Added: What I am not saying or implying with the above is that there's no room for differing interpretations, as that approach is very much a part of our tradition.