Did Jesus say he was God???

[Shermana]

No, I admit that romans 10:13 is talking about Jesus, and you still have two people saving.

So I think I can count about 5 or 6 times you have totally jumped from the question of which scripture Paul was referring to, or you believe that he was referring to his own Epistles as "Scripture"?

I even showed how its in Joel 2:32, and the word "LORD" in that case is not "Lord" but the Tetragrammaton, I explained this thoroughly. Shall I explain it again?

http://kingjbible.com/joel/2.htm

King James Bible
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

It doesn't really say "Call on the name of the LORD "in the scripture he quotes from, it says "Call on the name of YHWH". The Greek often interchanges Kurios with the Tetragrammaton, and I showed the NLT translation of that verse for a reason. Shall I post it again?

 

[American Patriot]

So I think I can count about 5 or 6 times you have totally jumped from the question of which scripture Paul was referring to, or you believe that he was referring to his own Epistles as "Scripture"?

I even showed how its in Joel 2:32, and the word "LORD" in that case is not "Lord" but the Tetragrammaton, I explained this thoroughly. Shall I explain it again?



It doesn't really say "Call on the name of the LORD "in the scripture he quotes from, it says "Call on the name of YHWH". The Greek often interchanges Kurios with the Tetragrammaton, and I showed the NLT translation of that verse for a reason. Shall I post it again?

NOOOO! prove to me verse 11 is connected to verse 13!!

Rom 9:33
(33) As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

In verse 11 he wasnt talking about the same thing in verse 13 so no he wasn't referring to himself!

Because verse 12 is connected to new testament verses!

(12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Lets compare scripture!

Gal 3:28
(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:11
(11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

 

[Shermana]

Once again....

Notice the difference between the use of "lord" (which kings like David and Saul are called as well as God) and LORD which is the replacement for the Tetragrammaton. You can tell with the lack of article before Kuriou.

Are you saying he is NOT quoting Joel 2? Click on that little "g" at the end.

10For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. 11As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.”e 12Jew and Gentilef are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. 13For “Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.”g

 

[URAVIP2ME]

No, I admit that romans 10:13 is talking about Jesus, and you still have two people saving.

At Romans 10v13 the tetragrammaton [YHWH] appears.
KJV says Lord in place of where YHWH appears in the Greek.

The tetragrammaton is never applied to Jesus.

The two [2] LORD/Lord's of Psalm 110v1 are referring to two different persons.
Only the LORD in all uppercase letters is where the tetragrammaton appears.

 

[Yanni]

Jesus was called "The Son" because He was born of a woman. That was needed for Him to be 100% human (as well as 100% God)

If Jesus was truly God, then why (or how) could he have been mutilated by the Romans? Doesn't he just have the absolute power to punish anyone who even laid a finger on him? Also, why does God need to "impregnate" a woman and come into this world through natural birth? Isn't that a waste of time? Why (if he was God) didn't he just appear on the scene one day and deliver his message? Is he not all powerful? It seems so similar to paganism (like Zeus having Hercules with a human female - no offense, of course).

 

[waitasec]

If Jesus was truly God, then why (or how) could he have been mutilated by the Romans? Doesn't he just have the absolute power to punish anyone who even laid a finger on him? Also, why does God need to "impregnate" a woman and come into this world through natural birth? Isn't that a waste of time? Why (if he was God) didn't he just appear on the scene one day and deliver his message? Is he not all powerful? It seems so similar to paganism (like Zeus having Hercules with a human female - no offense, of course).

these are really good questions?
i have one for you...

did god know he would destroy the earth with a flood, save 1 man and his family, when he created it and called everything "very good"?

 

[Yanni]

these are really good questions?
i have one for you...

did god know he would destroy the earth with a flood, save 1 man and his family, when he created it and called everything "very good"?

God's Foreknowledge and man's free will (although very hard to comprehend) are NOT contradictory. At the time, everything was good. But man has the capacity for evil, and he chose to corrupt the good that God created with evil. So, yes, God knew already. But man chose with free will.

 

[waitasec]

God's Foreknowledge and man's free will (although very hard to comprehend) are NOT contradictory. At the time, everything was good. But man has the capacity for evil, and he chose to corrupt the good that God created with evil. So, yes, God knew already. But man chose with free will.

so man has the capacity to do evil, and god knew it, why then call mankind "very good"? and why create something he would regret?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Hmm, prove it means good hood!

Why are you fighting on this one? This is not even a big deal or something worth debating over. It meant "godhood".....

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia[/FONT]
Godhead - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]The word "Godhead" is a simple doublet of the less frequently occurring "Godhood."[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

Does it matter where he got his power from?

Yes. The biblical Yeshua said that all power was given to him by his father in heaven. It means that Yeshua existed in heaven as a separate entity. He wasn't "God" but it was his god that gave him the power to do what he was able to do.

It says ALL power was given unto him!

Depends on your understanding of (all power). The important factor is it was something that he, while in heaven, did not posses... but it was "given" to him.

And what name were you baptized in?

Not important to this debate.

 

[American Patriot]

At Romans 10v13 the tetragrammaton [YHWH] appears.
KJV says Lord in place of where YHWH appears in the Greek.

The tetragrammaton is never applied to Jesus.

Only the LORD in all uppercase letters is where the tetragrammaton appears.

The two [2] LORD/Lord's of Psalm 110v1 are referring to two different persons.

That would make two different Lords! Sorry...:sorry1:

Deu 6:4
(4) Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Zec 14:9
(9) And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
1Co 8:6
(6) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Eph 4:5
(5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Mat 22:41-46
(41) While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
(42) Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
(43) He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
(44) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
(45) If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
(46) And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.


And in context "LORD" can be referred to as Jesus!

Proof....

Deu 10:17
(17) For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

This is Yahweh right? "LORD"

Rev 17:14
(14) These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Now how can there be two Lord of lords?:help:

 

[American Patriot]

Why are you fighting on this one? This is not even a big deal or something worth debating over. It meant "godhood".....

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia[/FONT]
Godhead - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]The word "Godhead" is a simple doublet of the less frequently occurring "Godhood."[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

Yepp, it does mean Godhood which means deity!

Godhead (5 Occurrences)

Yes. The biblical Yeshua said that all power was given to him by his father in heaven. It means that Yeshua existed in heaven as a separate entity. He wasn't "God" but it was his god that gave him the power to do what he was able to do.

Nope it does not mean this at all! The flesh Christ Jesus was given power, but as God he had all power!

Also, the Father in Christ Jesus was omnipresent!

Psa 139:7-8
(7) Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
(8) If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.


Joh 3:13
(13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Depends on your understanding of (all power). The important factor is it was something that he, while in heaven, did not posses... but it was "given" to him.

Yes!! It was given to the man Christ Jesus!

Not important to this debate.

Yes it is! Because if you are baptized in the name of Jesus you invoked that name, which goes against scripture if you believe Jesus is not Yahweh!

 

[American Patriot]

Once again....

Notice the difference between the use of "lord" (which kings like David and Saul are called as well as God) and LORD which is the replacement for the Tetragrammaton. You can tell with the lack of article before Kuriou.

Are you saying he is NOT quoting Joel 2? Click on that little "g" at the end.

Even if its quoting Joel, the bible says there's only one Lord, and if you confess with thy mouth Jesus is Lord then you are confessing he is Yahweh!

 

[American Patriot]

Jesus is Jehovah!
​

• Jehovah knows “all things.” (1 John 3:20; Psalm 147:5)
• Jesus knows “all things.” (John 16:30)

• Jehovah is the only one who knows the hearts of all men. (1 Kings 8:39; Jeremiah 17:9-10)
• Jesus knows the hearts of all men. (John 2:24-25; Rev. 2:18, 23)

• Jehovah is our sanctifier. (Exodus 31:13)
• Jesus sanctifies us. (Hebrews 10:10)

• Jehovah is our peace. (Judges 6:23)
• Jesus is our peace. (Ephesians 2:14)

• Jehovah is our righteousness. (Jeremiah 23:6)
• Jesus is our righteousness. ( 1 Corinthians 1:30)

• Jehovah is our healer. (Exodus 15:26)
• Jesus heals us. (Acts 9:34)

• Jehovah God dwells in us. (2 Corinthians 6:16)
• Jesus is in us. (Romans 8:10)2.

• Jehovah is the giver of life who will not allow His people to be “snatched” out of His hand. (Deuteronomy 32:39)
• Jesus is the giver of life who will not allow His people to be “snatched” out of His hand. (John 10:28)

• Jehovah’s voice is “like the roar of rushing waters.” (Ezekiel 43:2)
• Jesus’ “voice was like the sound of rushing waters.” (Revelation 1:15)

• Jehovah is present everywhere. (Proverbs 15:3; Jeremiah 23:24; I Kings 8:27)
• Jesus is omnipresent. (John 1:48; Matthew 18:20; 28:20)

• Jehovah’s nature does not change. (Malachi 3:6)
• Jesus’ nature does not change. (Hebrews 13:8)3.

• Jehovah is the only God we are to “serve.”
  (2 Kings 17:35)
• Jesus is to be served. (Col. 3:24)

• Jehovah is the only God to be “worshipped.” (Exodus 34:14)
• Jesus receives the same honor and “worship” that the Father receives. (John 5:23; Revelation 5:11-14 compare with Rev. 4:10-11)4.
• No angel can receive “worship.” (Revelation 22:8-9)

• Jehovah the Lord is to be set apart as holy. (Isaiah 8:12b-13)
• Jesus as Jehovah is to be set apart as holy. (1 Peter 3:14b-15a)5.

• Jehovah’s glory is not to be given to another.
  (Isaiah 42:8)
• Jesus shares Jehovah’s glory. (Jn. 17:5)

• God’s name is Jehovah (or Yahweh--YHWH). (Isaiah 42:8)
• Jesus has Jehovah’s name. (John 17:11; John 16:14-15)

• Jehovah is the only God to be mentioned in prayer. (Exodus 23:13)
• Christians are to pray to Jesus.
  (John 14:14)

• Calling upon Jehovah (Joel 2:32)
• is the same as calling upon Jesus. (Acts 2:21; Romans 10:9-13)

• Jehovah “the true God” is called “eternal life.” (1 John 5:20)
• Jesus is called “the eternal life.” (1 John 1:2)

• Jehovah is the “mighty God.” (Jeremiah 32:17-18; Isaiah 10:20-21)
• Jesus is the “mighty God”
  (Isaiah 9:6) who is “Almighty.” (Revelation 1:7-8) THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD. (1 Timothy 1:17; Isaiah 44:8)

• Jehovah is an “everlasting light.” (Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 60:19-20)
• Jesus is the light of men and the everlasting light of the future city. (John 1:4-9; Revelation 21:23)

• Jehovah is “the first and the last.” (Isaiah 44:6; 48:12)
• Jesus is the “first and the last.”
• 
  (Revelation 1:17-18; 22:12-13, 20)
• Jehovah is the “Alpha and the Omega.” (Revelation 1:8; Revelation 21:6-7)
• Jesus is the “Alpha and the Omega.” (Revelation 22:12-13, 20)

• Jehovah’s title is “the Holy One.” (Isaiah 47:4)
• Jesus is “the Holy One.” (Acts 3:14; John 6:69)

• Jehovah is the “stumbling stone” of Israel.
  (Isaiah 8:13-15)
• Jesus is the “stumbling stone” of Israel. (1 Peter 2:6-8)

• John the Baptist was to prepare the way for Jehovah. (Isaiah 40:3)
• The Jehovah who came was Jesus.
  (Mark 1:1-4; John 1:6-7, 23)

• Jehovah is the one who was “pierced.” (Zechariah 12:10)9.
• Jesus is the pierced Jehovah. (John 19:34; Revelation 1:7-8)

• The Jehovah who was sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:13)
• is Jesus. (Matthew 27:2-6)

• Jehovah is Lord of the elements. (Psalm 89:8-9)
• Jesus is Lord of the elements. (Matthew 8:26-27; John 2:7-9) There's just one Lord

• Jehovah is the great Judge who gives life to whom he wishes and who renders to each man “according” to his “deeds.” (Psalm 98:9; Deuteronomy 32:39; Jeremiah 17:9-10)
• Jesus is the only judge who gives life to whom he wishes and renders to each man “according” to his “deeds.” (John 5:21-22; Revelation 2:18, 23)

• Jehovah is the only one who can forgive sins. (Mark 2:7; Daniel 9:9)
• Jesus forgives sins. (Mark 2:10-11; Luke 24:46-47)

• Jehovah is the great “shepherd” who leads his people to “the spring of the water of life.” (Psalm 23:1-2; Revelation 21:6-7)
• Jesus as the “shepherd” of His people, leads them “to springs of the water of life.” (John 10:11-18; Revelation 7:17) THERE IS ONLY ONE SHEPHERD --John 10:16.

• Jehovah is “Lord of Lords.” (Deuteronomy 10:17)
• Jesus is “Lord of Lords.” (Revelation 17:14; 19:16)
• The Father is Lord of all. (Matthew 11:25;
  Acts 17:24)
• Jesus is “Lord of all.” (Acts 10:36) THERE IS ONLY ONE LORD. (Jude 4)

• Jehovah is the Savior. (Isaiah 45:21-22)
• Jesus is the Savior. (Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1) THERE IS ONLY ONE SAVIOR. (Isaiah 43:11)

• Jehovah created the universe. (Psalm 102:25-27)
• Jesus created the universe. (John 1:3; Colossians 1:15-19;10.
• Hebrews 1:10-12).11. THERE IS ONLY ONE CREATOR. (Isaiah 44:24)

• Isaiah saw Jehovah. (Isaiah 6:1-5)
• The Jehovah that Isaiah saw was Jesus. (John 12:41)

• Jehovah is the I AM. (Exodus 3:13-14 Isaiah 43:10-15,25)
• Jesus is the I AM.(John 18:5-8 Rev 1:17-18)

• Jehovah is our husband. (Isaiah 54:5 Jer 31:32)
• Jesus is our bridegroom. ( Matt 9:15 Matt 25:10 Jn 3:28)

“For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me.”—Isaiah 46:9

Jesus sounds pretty close to God right?!

“You are My witnesses…Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me.…there is no savior besides Me.”—Isaiah 43:10-11
​

 

[idav]

Even if its quoting Joel, the bible says there's only one Lord, and if you confess with thy mouth Jesus is Lord then you are confessing he is Yahweh!

I've never thought that. Yahweh is his own being who is named Yahweh. All it means is appointing Jesus as a king just like what a lord is and like king David was.

 

[Shermana]

Even if its quoting Joel, the bible says there's only one Lord, and if you confess with thy mouth Jesus is Lord then you are confessing he is Yahweh!

So if you confessed that David is Lord, you'd call David YHWH. Interesting.

 

[Shermana]

"

• Jehovah knows “all things.” (1 John 3:20; Psalm 147:5)
• Jesus knows “all things.” (John 16:30)"

Let's just start with that one, apparently Jesus doesn't even know the "day or hour". Notice that it's the Disciples who say "You know everything!" It's a statement of being impressed with his wisdom. However, Jesus does not know on what day the judgment will come. Mark 13:32

New International Version (©1984)
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

As for Jesus being "Creator", that fits perfectly with the general idea of the "Logos" (in Philo's terms) as the Chief Foreman of the Angels during the Creation period. God was the CEO and Architect, Jesus was the Head Builder.

The "I am " thing, as discussed, is a name, and the grammatical context, as many translations like Goodspeed's "American Translation" point out, that Jesus was saying "Before Abraham was, I was". The name itself is "I shall be as I shall be". In the context Yashua uses the word "to be", he is agreeing in the past tense of Abraham, where the word for "Came to be" can also be used as "Shall be". Did Jesus say "Before Abraham shall be, I am"? No? Why not? I like how you say "The" I am. When did it get an article?

Also, if Jesus can forgive sins and that if that makes him God, does that mean the Disciples who were given the power to forgive are God too? (Note: The ending of John may be a large interpolation nonetheless).

 

[waitasec]

Also, if Jesus can forgive sins and that if that makes him God, does that mean the Disciples who were given the power to forgive are God too? (Note: The ending of John may be a large interpolation nonetheless).

where in the gospels does it say jesus' disciples were given power to forgive?

 

[Shermana]

where in the gospels does it say jesus' disciples were given power to forgive?

John 20

21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

However, there is evidence that much of the ending of John is interpolation. Starting with 24-31 and Chapter 21. Tatian specifically discluded the whole Locked Room affair in the Diatesseron.

 

[American Patriot]

So if you confessed that David is Lord, you'd call David YHWH. Interesting.

Lol you're really good at proving my points!

See David was a lord because he was a master and king, could you call on David for salvation?!

Yahweh is LORD because you can all on him for salvation, and because he is the Lord of lords and Lord of all!
Rom 10:13
(13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD shall be saved.

Deu 10:17
(17) For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

Mat 11:25
(25) At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.


Yeshuah is Lord because you have to confess with thy mouth he is Lord for salvation and he is Lord of lords and Lord of all!

Rom 10:9
(9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rev 17:14
(14) These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Act 10:36
(36) The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all)

Now how do you have two Lord of lords, and two Lords of ALL? :sorry1:

Deu 6:4
(4) Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Zec 14:9
(9) And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
1Co 8:6
(6) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Eph 4:5
(5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Jesus is Yahweh the LORD!

 

[ApostolicPeter]

John 20

21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

However, there is evidence that much of the ending of John is interpolation. Starting with 24-31 and Chapter 21. Tatian specifically discluded the whole Locked Room affair in the Diatesseron.

You have never demonstrated from the Bible the disciples ever forgiving sins, and you can't. Do you have priests or the equivalent thereof hearing confessions in your church/organization? If not, why not?

Obviously you have the Catholic interpretation of this scripture but not the Biblical one. Until you can PROVE from the BIBLE the disciples had power to forgive sins in the way that only God can, we will reject or ignore your claims.