Did Jesus say he was God???

[Dirty Penguin]

I believe there is no statement that the King would see the sign come in his time however the portion that references the kings concerns would take part in his time.

I believe context does not change what a text says, it only helps in understanding it.

The text mean little if you don't understand the context. Not the context of a few passages here or there but the entirety of Isaiah. There is no break in the story or prophecy that on one hand only relates to the plight of the jews but then switches gears to reference Yeshua of 700 years later then makes another 180 to go back to talking about the jews and the Assyrians. ALL of Isaiah is dealing with a particular time frame centuries before Yeshua. Sloppy translations and interpretations of a couple verses have made this even worse.

 

[pro4life]

I have been asked to produce evidence of the divinity of Jesus. This is not just good evidence, it is overwhelming evidence.


Words of Jesus

John 14:9 ... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father
John 14:10 ... the words that I say unto you , I speak not from myself but from the Father abiding in Me doeth His works
John 14:11 ... I am in the Father and the Father in Me
John 10:30 I and My Father are one
John 10:33 ... thou being a man makest Thyself God
John 8:58 Jesus said ... before Abraham was born, Jah (Jah is the short form of Jeshovah)
John 8:59 They took up stones therefore to cast at Him
Mark 2:5 and Jesus seeing their faith saith ... thy sins are forgiven
Mark 2:7 ... who can forgive sins but one, even God
Mark 10:17 ... good teacher Mark 10:18 Why callest Me good? None is good save one, even God John 10:11 I am the good shepherd
Mat. 1:21 ... call his name Jesus; for it is He that shall save his people from their sins
Prophecies of the Messiah Jesus
Isa. 45:21 ... I, Jehovah? and there is no God else besides Me a just God and savior, there is none besides Me
Isa. 7:14 ... a sign: behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel (God with us)
Isa 9:6 a son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called: Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

Attributes of God
Omnipresence
John 1:46 Nathaniel saith unto Him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him Before Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
John 1:49 Nathaniel answered him, Rabbi thou art the Son of God; thou art King of Israel.
John 1:50 Jesus answered ... thou shalt see greater things than these
Omniscience
Luke 6:8 ...the Pharisees watched Him ... that they might find how to accuse him but He knew their thoughts
John 4:17 ... Thou sayest well, I have no husband
John 4:18 for thou hast had five husbands and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband
Omnipotence
Mark 4:41 ... Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?

(He turned water into wine, multiplied bread, healed the sick and the blind, raised a man who was dead for four days)
Authority
Luke 4:36 ... for with authority and power He commandeth the unclean spirits and they come out
Mat 7:29 for He taught them as one having authority
Mat 28:18 ... Jesus ...spake... saying, all authority hath been given unto Me in heaven and on earth
The "I am" statements of Jesus
John 8:12 ... I am the light of the world
John 14:6 ... I am the way, the truth and the life
John 6:35 ... I am the bread of life
John 10:9 I am the door, by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved
John 11:25 ... I am the resurrection and the life
John 15:1 I am the true vine (this is a reference to Jesus being the Paraclete)

None of the quotes says that he is God unequivocally

 

[Muffled]

None of the quotes says that he is God unequivocally

I believe you will not be able to prove that the words did not equate to Jesus being God in the flesh.

 

[Muffled]

The text mean little if you don't understand the context. Not the context of a few passages here or there but the entirety of Isaiah. There is no break in the story or prophecy that on one hand only relates to the plight of the jews but then switches gears to reference Yeshua of 700 years later then makes another 180 to go back to talking about the jews and the Assyrians. ALL of Isaiah is dealing with a particular time frame centuries before Yeshua. Sloppy translations and interpretations of a couple verses have made this even worse.

I believe that is supposition and improper reasoning. It says that individual member of a set determine what other individual members of a set will be by their preponderance. First one has to prove that the set is homogenous and I believe that to be impossible. For instance
Isa 65:17 ¶ For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

 

[pro4life]

I believe you will not be able to prove that the words did not equate to Jesus being God in the flesh.

John 14:10 the words that I say unto you , I speak not from myself but from the Father abiding in Me doeth His works

So if Jesus was God, why did he spoke those specific words? / He said he doesn't *speak* from himself.. but the father does his works?
If Jesus IS God, he should be able to do his own works..

 

[Dirty Penguin]

John 14:10 the words that I say unto you , I speak not from myself but from the Father abiding in Me doeth His works

So if Jesus was God, why did he spoke those specific words? / He said he doesn't *speak* from himself.. but the father does his works?
If Jesus IS God, he should be able to do his own works..

The biblical Yeshua had answered this chapters prior to this but trinitarians and the like still maintain Yeshua is "God" even though Yeshua leaves no room for doubt.....

NIV Bible
John 4:34
"My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.

NIV Bile
John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

Even in their bible John (The Baptist) knew this...

NIV Bible
John 3:34
For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.

Seems simple to understand.....

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I believe that is supposition and improper reasoning. It says that individual member of a set determine what other individual members of a set will be by their preponderance. First one has to prove that the set is homogenous and I believe that to be impossible. For instance
Isa 65:17 ¶ For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

This isn't supposition. Your reasoning is that Isaiah is talking about Yeshua. Proper exegesis puts the book of Isaiah into its proper context. Exhaustive understanding and translation of the language shows that the interpretations by Christians are wrong.

Yeshayahu - Chapter 7 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible
Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.


The verse isn't talking about a virgin birth. Yeshua didn't fulfill the prophecies given. That's just in chapters 7-9. Chapters 1-65 have nothing to do with him. This isn't my reasoning. These are known facts.

 

[pro4life]

The biblical Yeshua had answered this chapters prior to this but trinitarians and the like still maintain Yeshua is "God" even though Yeshua leaves no room for doubt.....

NIV Bible
John 4:34
"My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.

NIV Bile
John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

Even in their bible John (The Baptist) knew this...

NIV Bible
John 3:34
For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.

Seems simple to understand.....

Simple enough to know that he can't do things by himself.

 

[Muffled]

John 14:10 the words that I say unto you , I speak not from myself but from the Father abiding in Me doeth His works

So if Jesus was God, why did he spoke those specific words? / He said he doesn't *speak* from himself.. but the father does his works?
If Jesus IS God, he should be able to do his own works..

I believe Jesus is addressing the perception of him by the Pharisees that he was just a man by saying that He speaks the word of God and saying He does the works of God. If Jesus was doing his own work He would not be God.

 

[Muffled]

Simple enough to know that he can't do things by himself.

I believe He is doing the works Himself. I believe what He is saying is that the work does not proceed from a separate person. For instance when Elijah raised someone from the dead he did not do it by his own power but by the power of God but Jesus isn't saying that He is doing it by the power of God but that God is doing it when He does it.

 

[pro4life]

I believe He is doing the works Himself. I believe what He is saying is that the work does not proceed from a separate person. For instance when Elijah raised someone from the dead he did not do it by his own power but by the power of God but Jesus isn't saying that He is doing it by the power of God but that God is doing it when He does it.

Give me the quote.

 

[Muffled]

Give me the quote.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works.

But this hardy establishes proof for your claims. It actually rejects the claim. Just in your highlighted portion it reveals they are not one in the same. Your scripture does not reveal that "God" can become less than what he is nor does it reveal that he can be greater than what he is so for "God" (Yeshua) needing to be aided by "God" is an illogical premise. Especially given the quotes I listed that show Yeshua, prior to being sent by his god, has a separate will than the god that sent him.

 

[Muffled]

But this hardy establishes proof for your claims. It actually rejects the claim. Just in your highlighted portion it reveals they are not one in the same. Your scripture does not reveal that "God" can become less than what he is nor does it reveal that he can be greater than what he is so for "God" (Yeshua) needing to be aided by "God" is an illogical premise. Especially given the quotes I listed that show Yeshua, prior to being sent by his god, has a separate will than the god that sent him.

I believe One and the same are not the same thing as God abiding in a body. God can never be the same with the body.

I believe that is true and that God is not diminished or improved by being in Jesus.

I believe it is not a premise that I make. It is not God aiding God but God doing the works while abiding in Jesus. One could hardly expect a physical body to do the spiritual works of God. It is not that God aids the physical body in its purpose but that God uses the body to fulfill His purposes.

 

[Muffled]

The biblical Yeshua had answered this chapters prior to this but trinitarians and the like still maintain Yeshua is "God" even though Yeshua leaves no room for doubt.....

NIV Bible
John 4:34
"My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.

NIV Bile
John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

Even in their bible John (The Baptist) knew this...

NIV Bible
John 3:34
For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.

Seems simple to understand.....

I believe I can understand why you think that means a separate will but the context is that Jesus is addressing those who might view Him as having a separate will and separate words and separate works because they do not see Him as God. I believe these very verses show that He is God in the flesh because He couldn't make the claims of having the same will, speak the same words or do the same works.

 

[pro4life]

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works.

"the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself". Self explanatory if you ask me.

 

[Muffled]

"the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself". Self explanatory if you ask me.

I believe ":self" has a lot to do with it since interpretations often come from there but mine come from Jesus. It is Jesus and God speaking the words is it not? If you think you can explain it differently do so but saying something is obvious only means that you haven't really thought about what it says.

 

[Vishvavajra]

I believe Jesus is the only person ever born to a virgin and that fits the prophecy that labels Him Immanuel. How do you say that is not evidence?

Er, the virgin birth thing enters the tradition late in the 1st century. Paul was unaware of it; he says simply that Jesus was born of a woman (i.e. like everybody else). The virgin thing seems to rely on a particular understanding of Isaiah that requires that it be translated into Greek first, as in the Septuagint. It then got incorporated into the Gospels as one of the various miracles associated with him, in keeping with that genre of literature.

We have as much reason to believe that Alexander the Great was fathered by a serpent as we do to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin.

 

[Vishvavajra]

Guys, be honest. Why does it matter if there is a trinity or if God is really Jesus' dad. Isn't the important part Jesus' lessons on how to live, instead of one's understanding of the nature of God?

Jesus seems to have regarded his ministry as the important thing, the thing he was willing to die for. Later Christians weren't satisfied with that and imagined that he must have been Yahweh making a human sacrifice of himself to himself in order to accomplish some occult purpose that was way more important than anything Jesus actually said or did.

 

[Vishvavajra]

You only go to the father through me I think he says. That's pretty clear. And my father is greater than me.

The "I am..." statements appear only in John, which is from the end of the 1st century, and they're doctrinal statements of the early church-in-exile placed into the mouth of the founder. You have to understand that a lot of the 4th Gospel is the author's program of placing Christianity as the true successor to the Judaic tradition. That doesn't tell us much of anything about what Jesus said or thought in his own time.

As for "my father is greater than me," that's what you'd expect him to say if he were the Messiah in the Jewish understanding of the term. As an anointed king, he's a Son of God by title, and he believes that he (and everyone else, probably) has an innate mystical connection to God, but he is not personally equivalent to the totality of God and never claims to be.