Did Jesus Teach Freedom From Religious Law

[YellowFeather]

The law was not made for the Righteous but the unrighteous, ungodly, sinners for murders. The law was written to bring the sinner to God. The sinner that comes to God understanding he has done wrong and is ready to change for God will start having Faith and believing in God. Their life will change to doing good and living a happier life. 1 Timothy Chapter 1

 

[metis]

The law was not made for the Righteous but the unrighteous, ungodly, sinners for murders. The law was written to bring the sinner to God. The sinner that comes to God understanding he has done wrong and is ready to change for God will start having Faith and believing in God. Their life will change to doing good and living a happier life. 1 Timothy Chapter 1

No one is above the Law no matter what they believe and/or confess.

 

[Muffled]

Yeah, I get that from other Christians too. However the law? the necessary fulfillment of payment for original sin?
The supposed 613 laws for the Hebrew was just to keep them busy in the meantime.

For me Jesus is Lord which means whatever He says for me to do is the law.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

No one is above the Law no matter what they believe and/or confess.

.... but which law? Jesus fulfilled the old Constitution of the Mosaic Law for the one nation of ancient Israel - Romans 10:4; 7:6; Matt. 5:17

Often people today drive past the speed limit, but a traffic law violation is not considered as sinning against the motor vehicle code

 

[Muffled]

Agreed. But. Jesus was not preaching to early Christians. He was preaching to Jews. Desperate Jews.

You would have a point, if, what you're saying is written in the gospels ( not the epistles which are marketing Jesus, not preaching his truth ).

Please bring verses to support your point of view, if you can. Gospels only, sir.

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

 

[dybmh]

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

Good.

In many ways it isn't a law but simply a living way and the early Christians called themselves the way.

You're saying: "... it isn't a law ... "

Jesus is quoted: "Why do you call me Lord, Lord ( the law giver ), and not do what I tell you?"

You're welcome to explain. But, I will not accept Paul. I will only accept the words of Jesus in this matter.

 

[Fool]

Yes, or do you believe otherwise?

traditions are not law.

there is only the law of one.

simply put, it's to love unconditionally. that is the whole of the law.


Matthew 22:36-40

 

[Nakosis]

traditions are not law.

there is only the law of one.

simply put, it's to love unconditionally. that is the whole of the law.


Matthew 22:36-40

Yes, people assume that Jesus was referring to the 613 laws the Rabbis had decided were the laws given by God.

If this is the whole of the law as you say, then what is the sin?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Building a fence means to nip the sin in the bud. This means in inner unmanifested stage. Authors of gospels (and Jesus) and Philokalia see evil thoughts as provoked by the demons. Communion is a term for a stage where temptation starts turning into sin but still in thought.

Thank you for not bringing up demons or communion. I appreciate the topic staying focused.

Building a fence around the Torah means roughly the same thing as the catholic expression "to avoid the near occasion of sin."

The problem with forbidding thoughts and feelings is that one cannot control them. In fact, the more one tries to stop a certain thought, the more likely it is to recur again and again. Try to stop thinking about an elephant. The only thing you accomplish by telling someone to "stop thinking that wicked thought" is to make them feel guilty for something beyond their control.

In Mathew 5:28 Jesus says "pros to epithymēsai autēn". This literally translates as "look upon a woman in order to lust after her". It shows clear intent and indulging not mere attraction or desire. It's already over the bounds of temptation and controlled desire.

When I ran the koine Greek through the AI translator, this is what it gave me:
"But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make here. EVeryone in the world but children know exactly what "looking at a woman with lustful intent means." It's something men literally do all the time. By the time they turn their eyes away, they have ALREADY lusted.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Traveling from village to village was prohibited on Shabbat, therefore the picking of grain wouldn't even be possible. Also, the disciples had their teacher with them, so... He basically was their rabbi.



No matter how one tries to play it, it doesn't encourage respect for the dead or family.

It says in your quote that they went through the grain field on the sabbath. Your verses do not mention going from village to village on the Shabbat. Are you perhaps thinking of some other passage?

 

[metis]

.... but which law? Jesus fulfilled the old Constitution of the Mosaic Law for the one nation of ancient Israel - Romans 10:4; 7:6; Matt. 5:17

Often people today drive past the speed limit, but a traffic law violation is not considered as sinning against the motor vehicle code

The only way to "fulfill the Law" would be to not break any of the 613 Commandments. A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

 

[metis]

It says in your quote that they went through the grain field on the sabbath. Your verses do not mention going from village to village on the Shabbat. Are you perhaps thinking of some other passage?

Grain fields were not in towns, plus at least some commentaries have picking grain, fruit, etc. on Shabbos is classified as "work". Also, going from village on Shabbat is forbidden by non-military personnel. There are many more examples that can be shown that appear to violate halacha.

However, in my case since I more take Spinoza's bent, I very much agree and respect Jesus' emphasis on love of God and neighbor, thus I am not trying to diminish what he taught.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Grain fields were not in towns, plus at least some commentaries have picking grain, fruit, etc. on Shabbos is classified as "work".

First, yes, grain fields were technically not part of towns -- they existed directly outside. You do not have to travel "from village to viliage" in order to go through a grain field.

Today, the particulars of halakha on Shabbat are far more spelled out. Back then, the rabbis were still arguing about these particulars. Hillel and Shammai had very different ideas about oral law. Consider that if a life is in danger, we are supposed to break the shabbat if needed If someone is hungry, that would be the kind of grey area that would have been disputed at that time.

My personal view is that if a Jew cares about the Shabbat, they will prepare for it. For example, its Thursday today, and I have just gotten back from the grocery store, meaning I am not going to run out of food on the Shabbat. That these few disciples did not prepare in advance for the Shabbat shows a kind of disrespect for it. They get my thumbs down.

Also, going from village on Shabbat is forbidden by non-military personnel.

True, but your verses do not speak of them going from village to village on the Shabbat.

There are many more examples that can be shown that appear to violate halacha.

Such as?

However, in my case since I more take Spinoza's bent, I very much agree and respect Jesus' emphasis on love of God and neighbor, thus I am not trying to diminish what he taught.

I understand.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The only way to "fulfill the Law" would be to not break any of the 613 Commandments. A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

It is very common for Christians to say this, but that is not how Judaism works. It's not about being perfect. It's about repenting when you stumble. "The righteous man may stumble seven times and rises up again." Proverbs 24:16

There really is someone who aspires to be a good, moral person, and someone who simply doesn't care that something is wrong.

 

[metis]

It is very common for Christians to say this, but that is not how Judaism works. It's not about being perfect. It's about repenting when you stumble. "The righteous man may stumble seven times and rises up again." Proverbs 24:16

There really is someone who aspires to be a good, moral person, and someone who simply doesn't care that something is wrong.

I am aware of this, and you know this, right?

I don't have time right now for the other points, so I'll try and find the time tomorrow. Take care.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I am aware of this, and you know this, right?

Yes, which is why it surprised me that you stated that "fulfilling the law" required not breaking any of the laws. Maybe I just didn't catch the context in which you said that.

I don't have time right now for the other points, so I'll try and find the time tomorrow. Take care.

Have a good one, my friend.

 

[metis]

Yes, which is why it surprised me that you stated that "fulfilling the law" required not breaking any of the laws. Maybe I just didn't catch the context in which you said that.

To me, to "fulfill the Law" implies not breaking any of them, which I think is highly unlikely for anyone.

Some areas of difference:
Prohibiting circumcision for Gentiles seeking conversion.
Not to intermarry with Gentiles.
Not to eat treif.
Not to use stoning. ["Let he who's without sin cast the first stone"-- btw, I am against the death penalty]


To me, Jesus felt that Torah related entirely to the "law of love", but the reality is that Torah goes beyond just that. However, I personally agree with his position.

Take care, and Shabbat shalom.

 

[Fool]

Yes, people assume that Jesus was referring to the 613 laws the Rabbis had decided were the laws given by God.

If this is the whole of the law as you say, then what is the sin?

to not love unconditionally all as self or that which without love to all as self. that is where sin comes in

 

[Lisa Sims]

Yes...and no.

This particular “Second Coming” Message was delivered through Dr. Daniel Samuels an inspired/developed medium and Jewish doctor in Washington DC.

“I am here, Jesus.

“I was glad to be able to write you showing that the Christian churches as they are constituted at present are preaching a religion no different in its vital foundation from the religion of Judaism from which they parted, in that they are teaching the moral and ethical principles of human conduct as the way to God; and indeed, as I have shown, these churches by so doing are perpetuating the Mosaic code that leads to obedience of God’s Laws and purification of the human soul, with a place in the SPIRITUAL HEAVENS (not the Kingdom of God) prepared for the human soul cleansed of sin…

“Yet SOUL PERFECTION through Love was my message as the Messiah, and that was what my immediate followers and their disciples taught, as is found in the New Testament and, if the false doctrines of my sacrifice and blood-shedding were eliminated as the interpolations they are, and if my message were understood and interpreted correctly, then what they preached is the truth, for the early church, free of the later Greek and pagan notions of mass and trinity that were added, was filled with individuals who had obtained to a certain, and some to a great, extent, that real Grace - the Father’s Love - the Essence of God, which is that which eliminates sin from the soul as it effects its transformation into a Divine Soul, and thus actually brought about a soul condition in them whereby the laws of Moses were no longer needed and the Torah fulfilled by the Divine Presence of the Father Himself in the souls of those to whom it came WHEN SOUGHT FOR IN EARNEST PRAYER…

“And Christians, like other people, will continue to sin in this world and suffer the effects of their sins for a long time in the world to come, until they stop believing in my name for their salvation and PRAY to the Father for His Love, so that, in answer to such prayer, His Love - His real Grace - is conveyed into their souls by the Holy Spirit and effects that transformation of soul from human into Divine Souls, in the true fulfillment of the Law.

“Jesus of the Bible, and
Master of the Celestial Heavens”
Jesus 8/26/1957

“And I will put My Spirit within you and CAUSE you to walk in My statutes and to carefully observe My ordinances.” Ezekiel 36:27

“Anyone having been Born of God does not practice sin, because His Seed abides in him, and he is NOT ABLE TO CONTINUE SINNING, because he has been Born of God.” 1 John 3:9

 

[PearlSeeker]

Building a fence around the Torah means roughly the same thing as the catholic expression "to avoid the near occasion of sin."

The problem with forbidding thoughts and feelings is that one cannot control them. In fact, the more one tries to stop a certain thought, the more likely it is to recur again and again. Try to stop thinking about an elephant. The only thing you accomplish by telling someone to "stop thinking that wicked thought" is to make them feel guilty for something beyond their control.

The fence can be external and internal. External is to avoid opportunities to sin. For example the so called "Billy Graham rule": don't be alone (travel, meet, eat...) with a woman to whom you are not married.

Internal battle with the temptations is different. Hermits (for example Evagrius) developed some rules... A temptation is not sin but it can lead to sin. Fighting temptations doesn't mean to stop them from occurring or feel guilty.

I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make here. EVeryone in the world but children know exactly what "looking at a woman with lustful intent means." It's something men literally do all the time. By the time they turn their eyes away, they have ALREADY lusted.

Ok. But we can leave it as a natural reaction or we can intentionally potentiate it.