• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Did Muhammad authored the Quran?

T

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
sooda said:
Yes..
Click to expand...

Screenshot_2019-09-23 Did Muhammad authored the Quran (1).png
Screenshot_2019-09-23 Did Muhammad authored the Quran (2).png

@sooda Looks like a dilemma to me: You say Muslims believe what Jesus said, BUT firedragon (a Muslim) says that Muslims don't believe Jesus is represented in the Bible.

On another matter:

sooda said:
Most hadiths cannot be authenticated.. and most of them show up 200 years after the death of Muhammed.
Click to expand...

Your "source" for that claim? [Hopefully, your source is orthodox Islamic.] (Note: I'm not disputing your claim; I just want to see it "authenticated".)

And finally, what date do you have or know of regarding Uthman's standardization of the text of the Qur'an?
 
Last edited:
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
Bob Jones said:
Why is his name mentioned so many times in the Quran?
He is thus the most mentioned person in the Quran by reference; 25 times by the name Isa, third-person 48 times, first-person 35 times, and the rest as titles and attributes. Wilikpedia
Click to expand...

Thanks for the wiki link and your question brother. These numbers are nonsensical, not for any theological reasons but purely for the sake logic and intellectual honesty. I will show you why.

1. Lets say write a few statements about Bob the son of Jones.
  • Bob the son of jones is a family man
  • bob the family Man is a carpenter
  • Others clarified that Bob the son of jones is no doctor but just an honest carpenter and a good family man.
How many times is he mentioned? 3 times? Or is every single mention of his attribute or his identification a mention? Actually bob is mentioned three times but in the way your links has portrayed he should be mentioned as bob (3), son of jones (2), carpenter (2), family man (3), good (1), honest (1), etc.

So is he mentioned 12 times? Thats one of the most absurd attempts of apologetics one could come up with.

Anyway I don't see a relevance of your question.
 
Last edited:
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
Terry Sampson said:
View attachment 33110 View attachment 33111
@sooda Looks like a dilemma to me: You say Muslims believe what Jesus said, BUT firedragon (a Muslim) says that Muslims don't believe Jesus is represented in the Bible.

On another matter:



Your "source" for that claim? [Hopefully, your source is orthodox Islamic.] (Note: I'm not disputing your claim; I just want to see it "authenticated".)

And finally, what date do you have or know of regarding Uthman's standardization of the text of the Qur'an?
Click to expand...

Muslims of course will believe what Jesus said, if they can hear it or see it or they believe what he said is written somewhere.

Not anyone, every book or any tradition that attributes their statements to Jesus. You are making unwarranted associations.
 
T

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
firedragon said:
You are making unwarranted associations.
Click to expand...

Really?

Conversation A:
  1. 1234 posts in #5: "Only thing I wonder is, why don’t Muslims believe Jesus, even though that is what Quran says they should."
  2. sooda posts in #10: "All the Muslims I have ever talked with believed in Jesus they just don't believe God had a human child... and they don't believe in original sin or blood sacrifice."
  3. 1234 posts in #30: "So, are you saying they believe what God’s prophet Jesus says?"
  4. sooda posts in #51: "They believe in all the prophets."
  5. 1234 posts in #95: "Does that mean they believe what Jesus said?"
  6. sooda posts in #96: "Yes.."
  7. 1234 posts in #121: "That is interesting, makes me wonder why it doesn’t show."
Conversation B:
  1. 1234 posts in #31: "So, you believe what Jesus says in the Bible?"
  2. firedragon posts in #122: "Muslims dont believe Jesus is represented in the Bible. Maybe some remnants. A little."

Me:
  • 1234 in Conversation A is the same 1234 in Conversation B.
  • I'm going to go way out on a limb here and speculate that
    • the Jesus that 1234 talks about in Conversation A is the very same Jesus that he refers to in Conversation B.and
    • that the Bible 1234 refers to in both Conversation A and Conversation B is, at the very least, the canonical Bible recognized and used by many folks who characterize themselves as "Christian".
  • 1234 identifies himself as a "Disciple of Christ". Until I 1234 or someone who is acquainted with him tells me differently, I'm going to assume that when he talked about what, in Jesus' words, Muslims believe Jesus said, he was specifically and unambiguously referring to THE words of Jesus, recorded in at the very least the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
  • So, when 1234 asked sooda, in Conversation A, #5: "Does that mean they [i.e. Muslims} believe what Jesus said?", he was asking for a factual answer, NOT an opinion.
  • sooda, in #6 of the same conversation, answered "Yes", 1234 scratched his head and said (#7): "That is interesting, makes me wonder why it doesn't show."
  • Then, in Conversation B, 1234 asks [in #1] someone unknown to me (probably because I have them on "Ignore") "So, you believe what Jesus says in the Bible" which, correctly or incorrectly, I take to be his request for a factual answer, not an opinion.
  • And how do you answer that question? Either your answer is, like sooda's, a simple "yes" or it isn't.
  • So, tell me, is your answer to 1234's question: "Yes" or "No"?
  • If your answer to 1234's question was a straightforward, unambiguous "Yes", then I was indeed mistaken: there is no dilemma.
  • But if your answer was,
    • "We Muslims would acknowledge as Jesus' words such words that are indisputably Jesus' words; we just don't believe that all of the words attributed to Jesus in the canonical Christian gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are actually Jesus' words," and
    • The Qur'an records words spoken by Jesus which are not stated in the Bible,
    • Then your answer was NOT precisely the same simple "Yes" that sooda gave 1234.
  • Ergo, that sure looks like a dilemma to me.
  • Of course, it's quite possible that "dilemma" where you come from does not correspond to what that word means where I come from, in which case, until we find an interpreter for our continued conversation, one of us is on the wrong bus.
 
Last edited:
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
Terry Sampson said:
Really?

Conversation A:
  1. 1234 posts in #5: "Only thing I wonder is, why don’t Muslims believe Jesus, even though that is what Quran says they should."
  2. sooda posts in #10: "All the Muslims I have ever talked with believed in Jesus they just don't believe God had a human child... and they don't believe in original sin or blood sacrifice."
  3. 1234 posts in #30: "So, are you saying they believe what God’s prophet Jesus says?"
  4. sooda posts in #51: "They believe in all the prophets."
  5. 1234 posts in #95: "Does that mean they believe what Jesus said?"
  6. sooda posts in #96: "Yes.."
  7. 1234 posts in #121: "That is interesting, makes me wonder why it doesn’t show."
Conversation B:
  1. 1234 posts in #31: "So, you believe what Jesus says in the Bible?"
  2. firedragon posts in #122: "Muslims dont believe Jesus is represented in the Bible. Maybe some remnants. A little."

Me:
  • 1234 in Conversation A is the same 1234 in Conversation B.
  • I'm going to go way out on a limb here and speculate that
    • the Jesus that 1234 talks about in Conversation A is the very same Jesus that he refers to in Conversation B.and
    • that the Bible 1234 refers to in both Conversation A and Conversation B is, at the very least, the canonical Bible recognized and used by many folks who characterize themselves as "Christian".
  • 1234 identifies himself as a "Disciple of Christ". Until I 1234 or someone who is acquainted with him tells me differently, I'm going to assume that when he talked about what, in Jesus' words, Muslims believe Jesus said, he was specifically and unambiguously referring to THE words of Jesus, recorded in at the very least the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
  • So, when 1234 asked sooda, in Conversation A, #5: "Does that mean they [i.e. Muslims} believe what Jesus said?", he was asking for a factual answer, NOT an opinion.
  • sooda, in #6 of the same conversation, answered "Yes", 1234 scratched his head and said (#7): "That is interesting, makes me wonder why it doesn't show."
  • Then, in Conversation B, 1234 asks [in #1] someone unknown to me (probably because I have them on "Ignore") "So, you believe what Jesus says in the Bible" which, correctly or incorrectly, I take to be his request for a factual answer, not an opinion.
  • And how do you answer that question? Either your answer is, like sooda's, a simple "yes" or it isn't.
  • So, tell me, is your answer to 1234's question: "Yes" or "No"?
  • If your answer to 1234's question was a straightforward, unambiguous "Yes", then I was indeed mistaken: there is no dilemma.
  • But if your answer was, "We Muslims would acknowledge as Jesus' words such words that are indisputably Jesus' words; we just don't believe that all of the words attributed to Jesus in the canonical Christian gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are actually Jesus' words," then your answer was NOT precisely the same simple "Yes" that sooda gave 1234.
  • Ergo, that sure looks like a dilemma to me.
  • Of course, it's quite possible that "dilemma" where you come from does not correspond to what that word means where I come from, in which case, until we find an interpreter for our continued conversation, one of us is on the wrong bus.
Click to expand...

Can you sum up?
 
W

Wasp

Active Member
Terry Sampson said:
  • And how do you answer that question? Either your answer is, like sooda's, a simple "yes" or it isn't.
  • So, tell me, is your answer to 1234's question: "Yes" or "No"?
  • If your answer to 1234's question was a straightforward, unambiguous "Yes", then I was indeed mistaken: there is no dilemma.
  • But if your answer was,
    • "We Muslims would acknowledge as Jesus' words such words that are indisputably Jesus' words; we just don't believe that all of the words attributed to Jesus in the canonical Christian gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are actually Jesus' words," and
    • The Qur'an records words spoken by Jesus which are not stated in the Bible,
    • Then your answer was NOT precisely the same simple "Yes" that sooda gave 1234.
  • Ergo, that sure looks like a dilemma to me.
  • Of course, it's quite possible that "dilemma" where you come from does not correspond to what that word means where I come from, in which case, until we find an interpreter for our continued conversation, one of us is on the wrong bus.
Click to expand...
It isn't a yes or no answer. Demanding one you are trying to create a dilemma.

@sooda is not a Muslim. I don't see her answer creating any basis for farther questions.
 
Kevin McCabe

Kevin McCabe

New Member
The Qu’ran differs from the Hebrew and Christian Bibles in its preoccupation with rules and codes. In distinct contrast to the historical, storytelling nature of both Bibles, the Qu’ran (and Islamic philosophy in general) devotes a significant portion of its space to laying down rules for Muslims to follow.
 
W

Wasp

Active Member
Kevin McCabe said:
The Qu’ran differs from the Hebrew and Christian Bibles in its preoccupation with rules and codes. In distinct contrast to the historical, storytelling nature of both Bibles, the Qu’ran (and Islamic philosophy in general) devotes a significant portion of its space to laying down rules for Muslims to follow.
Click to expand...
I disagree, actually.
 
IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Raymann said:
It is my understanding that Muhammad received the revelations from an unidentified voice while in the cave.
Click to expand...
Actually Muhammad stole material from the Jews and Arian Christians, changing a few things around. No angelic revelation necessary. And don't buy the rumor that he was illiterate.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top