Did Muhammad wish for his followers to believe in the Torah and Gospel?

[firedragon]

There are two Books. Pslam (Almazaameer (المزامیر)) and Zaboor. These are two different Books. Pslam is not just another name for Zaboor. There were two different prophets with the name David. One of them is King David who is mentioned in Bible, whose book was Pslam. The other is another David who dates even before Moses, whose Book was Zaboor, who is not mentioned in Bible, but Quran refers to Him.
Don't mix them up, just because everyone else got it all wrong.

Psalm is not Zaboor. Someone made an assumption. I didnt mix them up. Read carefully. I did not mention the word Psalm anywhere.

Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

This verse says Scritptures were revealed to you. Who 'you' is, it it is not Christian's and Jews? It is including Torah and Iniil and Quran in one verse, and says, they have been revealed to you.

Very true. You just reiterated what i said. Good going.

 

[Seek truth]

In the Holy Quran it is written that Muhammad (PBUH) said:

“If they (Jews and Christians) had observed the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. Among them there are people on the right course but many of them are of evil conduct.”
(Quran 5:66)

Further;

Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.
(Quran 5:68)

It would appear Muslims are commanded in the Quran 4:136, to believe in the books God revealed to the Jews and the Christians.

O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray.

Yet most Muslims believe the Torah and Gospel the Jews and Christians hold in their possession to be corrupted and not the Torah and Gospel Muhammad spoke of.

Is the Gospel and Torah the Christians and Jews possessed in the time of Muhammad so different from today that it could be considered corrupted? If the Gospel and Torah was corrupted in Muhammad’s day, why is this never mentioned in the Quran?

Do not say 'why is this never mentioned in the Quran?' If you never read the Quran.
Here are some verses from the Quran, if you need more verses let me know
Al Baqarah verse 75
Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?

Al ma'idah verse 13
So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.

Al An'am verse 91
And they did not appraise Allah with true appraisal when they said, " Allah did not reveal to a human being anything." Say, "Who revealed the Scripture that Moses brought as light and guidance to the people? You [Jews] make it into pages, disclosing [some of] it and concealing much. And you were taught that which you knew not - neither you nor your fathers." Say, " Allah [revealed it]." Then leave them in their [empty] discourse, amusing themselves.

Al Baqarah verse 146
Those to whom We gave the Scripture know him as they know their own sons. But indeed, a party of them conceal the truth while they know [it].

Al Fath verse 29
Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating [in prayer], seeking bounty from Allah and [His] pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward

 

[Link]

I believe much of the Torah is intact as revealed but there are significant corruptions. The Quran comments on things it verifies and also things it doesn't but goes against it.

 

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Also, I don't believe in the method where everything is attempted to be reconciled in Quran and hadiths nor that attempt with previous books, the Quran interprets itself, and hadiths are just ways to perceive what it is in it.

Due to this type of thinking, we ended up inheriting many evils in the hadiths, that contradict the Quran, but we twist Quran left right and center to justify holding on to the ilmel rijaal system which has failed us.

 

[robocop (actually)]

In the Holy Quran it is written that Muhammad (PBUH) said:

“If they (Jews and Christians) had observed the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. Among them there are people on the right course but many of them are of evil conduct.”
(Quran 5:66)

Further;

Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.
(Quran 5:68)

It would appear Muslims are commanded in the Quran 4:136, to believe in the books God revealed to the Jews and the Christians.

O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray.

Yet most Muslims believe the Torah and Gospel the Jews and Christians hold in their possession to be corrupted and not the Torah and Gospel Muhammad spoke of.

Is the Gospel and Torah the Christians and Jews possessed in the time of Muhammad so different from today that it could be considered corrupted? If the Gospel and Torah was corrupted in Muhammad’s day, why is this never mentioned in the Quran?

In my experience with Muslims, they consider the Bible very flawed in translation.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Interesting theory. Do you have any proofs?

It is not a theory. It is an official Bahai view. It is in the Seven Proofs:

"Examine the people of David. This people was brought up during five hundred years with the rules of the Zabur to such a degree that finally it arrived at perfection in this religion. Then Moses was manifested. When He appeared, some of the followers of the Zabur believed in Him, while the others rejected Him. And so the two camps both believed their consciences to be right, and to be sure, neither one nor the other was motivated by an intention to blaspheme the Lord. It is exactly the same with you. You do not desire to stand against God either, perhaps on the contrary you search for certitude only to find the true Faith. Imagine for a moment that you are one of the people of David — if they had thought that Moses was truly the Prophet predicted by the Zabur, all, without exception, would have believed in the truth of His mission and not a single one would have remained a disbeliever."

- The Bab


The Seven Proofs

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No it does not. Lets say you should read something like thariq al thahzibah. Maybe you would get a better understanding.

don't just change the topic. I told you, when in Quranic verses, the term "book" (کتاب)is used, it means something written. You need to either accept this, or prove, it is not so. If you read something like thariq al thahzibah, it is irrelevant to Quran. We are discussing from Quran point of view.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Nope. I am not making any assumptions that this verse is speaking about some people who lived in the 7th century.

This is a generic verse. It may refer to history since creation, and may last till the end of whatever time means to us.

According to grammatical rule it is talking to a people living at the same time of revelation. Just read from at least one verse before it:


"Among them are unlettered folk who know the Scripture not except from hearsay. They but guess. Therefore woe be unto those who write the book with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby." 2:78, 79


When we read in context, this is about a people who lived in the 7th century, who do not understand scriptures properly...they interpret them according to their wishes falsely (from hearsay), and only guess with regards to interpretations... these are the people who were writing books based on their own interpretations, and claiming this is what God says. According to many Hadithes these verses are revealed with regards to Jews.

فرد اللّه عليهم فقال: «أَ وَ لا يَعْلَمُونَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ يَعْلَمُ ما يُسِرُّونَ وَ ما يُعْلِنُونَ وَ مِنْهُمْ أُمِّيُّونَ‌ أي من اليهود لا يَعْلَمُونَ الْكِتابَ إِلَّا أَمانِيَّ وَ إِنْ هُمْ إِلَّا يَظُنُّونَ‌ و كان قوم منهم يحرفون التوراة و أحكامها ثم يدعون أنه من عند اللّه فأنزل اللّه فيهم‌ فَوَيْلٌ لِلَّذِينَ يَكْتُبُونَ الْكِتابَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هذا مِنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ لِيَشْتَرُوا بِهِ ثَمَناً قَلِيلًا فَوَيْلٌ لَهُمْ مِمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَ وَيْلٌ لَهُمْ مِمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ.

مسند الإمام الصادق أبي عبد الله جعفر بن محمد(ع) - العطاردي، الشيخ عزيز الله - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت


Either way, this verse does not speak about corruption in Text of Injil or Torah.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Very true. You just reiterated what i said. Good going.

So, you agree that Injil and Torat were revealed to Jews and Christian's. At the same time you don't believe the Injil or Torat were ever written down properly as Books. Then how were they revealed to Christian's and Jews? If it was not an actual Book that they could read and follow, then how could it be said it was revealed to them? If you say Injil was only revealed to Jesus, but was not written down, then how could it be said it was revealed to Chriatians.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

....the Quran interprets itself,...

Explain how would Quran interpret itself, for example in this verse:


“Those who disbelieve say: “You are no emissary (of Allah)”. Say: “God suffices as a witness between me and you (all), as well as the one who has knowledge about the Book”. (13:43)

Without using any Hadith, and by only using Quran to interpret itself, tell me, who is, or who are "the one who has knowledge about the Book".
Don't use any previous ideas you got from Hadithes, or people, or family and friends. Just use Quran, and show how it interprets itself. Can you?

 

[firedragon]

So, you agree that Injil and Torat were revealed to Jews and Christian's. At the same time you don't believe the Injil or Torat were ever written down properly as Books. Then how were they revealed to Christian's and Jews? If it was not an actual Book that they could read and follow, then how could it be said it was revealed to them? If you say Injil was only revealed to Jesus, but was not written down, then how could it be said it was revealed to Chriatians.

Ask God bro.

peace.

 

[firedragon]

don't just change the topic. I told you, when in Quranic verses, the term "book" (کتاب)is used, it means something written.

Wrong. .

 

[firedragon]

According to grammatical rule it is talking to a people living at the same time of revelation.

which grammatical rule? Al azmunnuh ulthammuhu or alzamaan ulhaadhiru?

Which one?

 

[firedragon]

Explain how would Quran interpret itself, for example in this verse:


“Those who disbelieve say: “You are no emissary (of Allah)”. Say: “God suffices as a witness between me and you (all), as well as the one who has knowledge about the Book”. (13:43)

Without using any Hadith, and by only using Quran to interpret itself, tell me, who is, or who are "the one who has knowledge about the Book".
Don't use any previous ideas you got from Hadithes, or people, or family and friends. Just use Quran, and show how it interprets itself. Can you?

In ahadith, there is a mufassireen tradition called Quran bi Quran.

Don't you know about it brother?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Do not say 'why is this never mentioned in the Quran?' If you never read the Quran.
Here are some verses from the Quran, if you need more verses let me know
Al Baqarah verse 75
Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?

The verse doesn’t refer to interpolation of text of the Torah nor removal of verses. It simply refers to misinterpretation and misunderstanding of the Torah. Al Baqarah was revealed in Medina and during this time Jews despite having access to the Torah and expecting a Messiah rejected Muhammad. They had a rigid understanding of the Torah so were unable to see how Muhammad could be their Prophet. The problem was they failed to apprehend the deeper significance of key verses to enable them to accept Muhammad. The idea the Jews deliberately changed the text of the Torah, a book they revered and held sacred, is preposterous and anti-Semitic. Muhammad never implied such a thing.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

which grammatical rule? Al azmunnuh ulthammuhu or alzamaan ulhaadhiru?

Which one?

Just the fact that in 2:78 says ""Among them are unlettered folk"

"Among them are..." denotes, those people were present there at the time of Revelation of the verse!

 

[Dawnofhope]

I believe much of the Torah is intact as revealed but there are significant corruptions. The Quran comments on things it verifies and also things it doesn't but goes against it.

That is a somewhat more moderate position than what has been proposed by at other Muslims. What do you see as being those corruptions?

 

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That is a somewhat more moderate position than what has been proposed by at other Muslims. What do you see as being those corruptions?

For example. The Torah tells the story of the family members of Abraham, and you get that the chosen among them like Jacob and Joseph are more then just other people related by blood. Then it prepares the way for Aaron and his family, then goes 180 against the covenant to them. The Quran and ahadiths show the Prophets in children of Israel were all from the offspring of Aaron and the Quran shows Moses' family and Aaron family is one and mean the same thing.

This is a distortion of the concept of Ahlulbayt or the family of the reminder. The talk of the household of Abraham and the talk of the household of Aaron are obviously linked with respect to the covenant. But God's break his promises due to injustice of Aaron family while Quran says "my covenant doesn't include the unjust".

 

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The verse doesn’t refer to interpolation of text of the Torah nor removal of verses. It simply refers to misinterpretation and misunderstanding of the Torah. Al Baqarah was revealed in Medina and during this time Jews despite having access to the Torah and expecting a Messiah rejected Muhammad. They had a rigid understanding of the Torah so were unable to see how Muhammad could be their Prophet. The problem was they failed to apprehend the deeper significance of key verses to enable them to accept Muhammad. The idea the Jews deliberately changed the text of the Torah, a book they revered and held sacred, is preposterous and anti-Semitic. Muhammad never implied such a thing.

How is it anti-Semitic or Preposterous, they killed the Prophets per Quran, and so what stops them from distorting text. The only reason Quran survived is because Ahlulbayt of Mohammad was put in a way that allows sorcery to blind people to them therein. But we see Torah is clear in the Ahlulbayt of Aaron, but then goes 180 against it, part of the Torah is blessed, but part of it is cursed.