Did Muhammad wish for his followers to believe in the Torah and Gospel?

[InvestigateTruth]

As a Moslem: I knew from Quran:

• The Injeel changed when some people wrote books having small portion of Almasseh's Injeel and many traditions then later it's called Gospel.
• Some examples of changes are Trinity, crucifixion, resurrection, salvation, God the Son, stop practicing Mosa's law, invented the churches,,,,

I know what Moslems believe. But it has to be logical.
Let's go step by step please.
When you say Injil was changed, do you mean the Injil was written properly before, but later people changed it?
When did they change it? In the first century? In the second century? How do you know that?


Or you mean, Injil was never written properly from begining?

 

[wizanda]

When you say Injil was changed, do you mean the Injil was written properly before, but later people changed it?

I've spent years explaining to you as prophesied in the Quran & Bible before Judgement Day (Isaiah 28:11-13): that the Gospel of John is made up, the writings of Paul contradict Yeshua, and Simon was called the Stumbling Stone (peter) to fulfil prophecy.

When these 3 frogs are removed (Revelation 16:12-13) from the mouth of the Beast ('jesus'); we are left with the Messiah's teachings in the Synoptic Gospels (Yehoshua/Yeshua).

Yeshua taught a living Gospel, where it was about doing good works, charity, prayer, and submitting as a humble servant of God (a Muslim).

Christianity taught a dead Gospel, that 'jesus' came to die as a sin offering, where by believing in his death, and resurrection, we are saved (an Antichrist).

In my opinion.

 

[Niblo]

In my view the narratives in Quran and Bible do not contradict, but they only appear so, and there is a reason God revealed certain things in Bible to appear different than Quran.
For example, one of the most obvious apparent contradictions is the crucifixion of Jesus. In our view there is no contradiction, because when Bible is talking about crucifixion of Jesus, it is with regards to crucifying Jesus physical body. When Quran says, Jesus was not crucified, it is about His Spiritual reality.

I see scriptures, generally sometimes speak of Physical body, and sometimes speak of spirituality, without telling us which one it is. We need to think and use our logic to understand. For example scriptures speak of death, both in a physical sense, and also spiritual death. The unbelievers are spiritually dead even if they are physically alive, and the believers are spiritually alive even if they were killed physically. In brief, all apparent contredictions between Bible and Quran are reconcilable if understood correctly in my view.


But, I am interested to know your opinion about what I said in my previous post. If the Injil was never properly written, then God failed and was powerless to provide His guidance and revelation to Christians? Was not His purpose of sending Jesus and Revelation of Injil, to guide the people? If we say, the Book was never reached to people, that means God failed to even leave a proper guidance for the people of that Age.

I'm too old a bunny to play dodgeball. This is what I asked:

'You are familiar with the nativity narratives in both Qur'an and Gospels. They differ considerably; to the extent that if one narrative is true the other can only be a lie.

'In your opinion, which narrative is true; the Qur'anic, or that of the Gospels...and what are your reasons for saying so?'

Please do me the courtesy of answering my question - focussing only on the nativity narratives.

Have a nice day!

 

[wizanda]

'You are familiar with the nativity narratives in both Qur'an and Gospels. They differ considerably; to the extent that if one narrative is true the other can only be a lie.

'In your opinion, which narrative is true; the Qur'anic, or that of the Gospels...and what are your reasons for saying so?'

They are both true, as I just stated above, certain texts are corrupt; the Pharisees John, Paul, and Simon corrupted the Gospel of Yeshua in the Synoptic Gospels creating Christianity.

Early church history shows the Ebionites or Followers of the Way (Nazarenes), were the original followers of Yeshua, and then Paul with Simon the Stumbling stone (peter) corrupted it...

Which both the Tanakh, and Yeshua prophesied would occur as a test; which the Quran confirms has happened.

Because people don't read all the texts as one, then they don't understand the Hebraic/Biblical contexts when they read the Quran; which is a Review (Criterion), and Confirmation (Seal) of the things that came before it.

In my opinion.

 

[ClimbingTheLadder]

Early church history shows the Ebionites or Followers of the Way (Nazarenes), were the original followers of Yeshua, and then Paul with Simon the Stumbling stone (peter) corrupted it...

I'm glad that we finally agree on something!

That's exactly the conclusion I hold as well.

 

[Limo]

I know what Moslems believe. But it has to be logical.

Very strange, my comment was in 2 parts. The first one is the believe part which is for Moslems only.

The second was the modern study findings (logical).
You've ignored the scientific part (logical) and commented on the believe part saying "it has to be logical"

Let's go step by step please.
When you say Injil was changed, do you mean the Injil was written properly before, but later people changed it?
When did they change it? In the first century? In the second century? How do you know that?


Or you mean, Injil was never written properly from begining?

• Injeel is a book revealed to Almaseeh like Torah and Quran, Almaseeh wrote it and reviewed himself. He tought it to his disciples. It was in Hebrew or Aramaic. No chance to be in Greek or Coptic or Latin or Arabic
• Injeel wasn't handled with care and accuracy.
• Injeel was with Jewish Christians, It wasn't with Pauline Christians (Gentiles)
• The Gentiel Pauline Christians wrote many books (Gospels). It's human made. It's not written by Disciples. It's written by Gentiles who didn't see Almaseeh
• The wrote it from some traditions were flying here and there. Some were truly from Injeel and history of Almaseeh and most are facked stories. Copied from Torah, pagans, philosphy
• These 4 books are not Injeel. It has parts of Injeel
• Even they didn't keep these books and the changes it a lot

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I'm too old a bunny to play dodgeball. This is what I asked:

'You are familiar with the nativity narratives in both Qur'an and Gospels. They differ considerably; to the extent that if one narrative is true the other can only be a lie.

'In your opinion, which narrative is true; the Qur'anic, or that of the Gospels...and what are your reasons for saying so?'

Please do me the courtesy of answering my question - focussing only on the nativity narratives.

Have a nice day!

What do you mean by nativity narratives?
Here you are taking your assumption as a fact when you say "They differ considerably; to the extent that if one narrative is true the other can only be a lie."

First you need to prove your premise.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

• Injeel is a book revealed to Almaseeh like Torah and Quran, Almaseeh wrote it and reviewed himself. He tought it to his disciples. It was in Hebrew or

There is no evidence in history Jesus wrote the Injil Himself and reviewed it Himslef. You are making an assumption with no evidence.

• Aramaic. No chance to be in Greek or Coptic or Latin or Arabic
• Injeel wasn't handled with care and accuracy.
• Injeel was with Jewish Christians, It wasn't with Pauline Christians (Gentiles)
• The Gentiel Pauline Christians wrote many books (Gospels). It's human made. It's not written by Disciples. It's written by Gentiles who didn't see Almaseeh
• The wrote it from some traditions were flying here and there. Some were truly from Injeel and history of Almaseeh and most are facked stories. Copied from Torah, pagans, philosphy
• These 4 books are not Injeel. It has parts of Injeel
• Even they didn't keep these books and the changes it a lot

It seems to me, you are thinking in early Christianity injil was changed or got corrupted, when Gentiel Pauline Christians wrote many books (Gospels).

First of all, many early Chrisitans were believers in God and considered Jesus and His Book holy. It does not make sense they change a Book they believe it to be from God. T


Secondly, from first century when Injil was corrupted according to you, till when Quran was revealed there are at least 500 years. Why did Allah leave them with a corrupted book for 500 years, when He could have protected Injil?
Think that Allah is fair. Assuming some Chrisitans corrupted the Injil, what is the fault of all other Chrisitans who were not involved in corrupting the Book? How would they be guided if their Book got corrupted? Don't say, Quran was revealed. That is not a proper answer because I am talking about Chrisitans who lived before Quran.

 

[wizanda]

Why did Allah leave them with a corrupted book for 500 years, when He could have protected Injil?

If we look at the historical timeline, the Bible prophesied it would be corrupted; where they would build a city built upon bloodshed, where they will worship wooden idols (Habakkuk 2, Zechariah 5, etc)...

The Bible 'Canonized' - was first used in 367 CE, and by 500 CE the Bible cannon was finalized...

Muhammad - 570 CE – 8 June 632 CE

The Dajjal is the false representation of the Messiah within Rome, this happened when they added John, Paul, and Simon the Stumbling Stone (peter), which contradict Yeshua directly in the Synoptic Gospels.

In my opinion.

 

[Niblo]

What do you mean by nativity narratives?.

Narratives concerning the birth of Yeshua (ʿalayhi s-salām), as contained in the Gospels of 'Matthew' and 'Luke' (the other two Gospels are silent on this matter); compared with that contained in the Qur'an.

Why should this be so hard to understand?

I repeat: The Gospel and Qur'anic nativity narratives differ considerably - as you must surely know - to the extent that if one narrative is true the other can only be a lie.

For the third time of asking: Which - in your opinion - is true, and which the lie? And please give your reasons for saying so.

Many thanks.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Narratives concerning the birth of Yeshua (ʿalayhi s-salām), as contained in the Gospels of 'Matthew' and 'Luke' (the other two Gospels are silent on this matter); compared with that contained in the Qur'an.

Why should this be so hard to understand?

I repeat: The Gospel and Qur'anic nativity narratives differ considerably - as you must surely know - to the extent that if one narrative is true the other can only be a lie.

For the third time of asking: Which - in your opinion - is true, and which the lie? And please give your reasons for saying so.

Many thanks.

I don't know why you think Birth of Jesus Is different in Quran than Bible. Both of them agree, Jesus did not have a father, as everyone else have.
You need to describe why you think the narratives are different. But, I believe the reason is, you are reading stories literally, whereas those narratives have spiritual significant and some expressions are symbolic.

I mean, let me give you an example, how symbolic stories can appear to be different, but mean the same.

As an example, see story of Joseph.

"O Joseph!" (he said) "O man of truth! Expound to us (the dream) of seven fat kine whom seven lean ones devour, and of seven green ears of corn and (seven) others withered: that I may return to the people, and that they may understand." 12:46

This verse is allusion to the story of a man who had 2 dreams. One dream was about 7 cows. Another dream is 7 corns. Both dreams mean the same, but they are expressed differently, one is about cows, the other corns!

Now, in the Bible, Jesus said, He will not show any signs, except for the sign of Prophet Johannes. The story of Johannes was He was in the belly of a fish for 3 days, but for Jesus was His death for 3 days. Both symbolic expression mean the same, yet they appear to be different. Now, quote from the bible and Quran the story of birth of Jesus, and I will show you how both mean the same, yet they appear to be different.

 

[Niblo]

I don't know why you think Birth of Jesus Is different in Quran than Bible. Both of them agree, Jesus did not have a father, as everyone else have.

The nativity story according to ‘Matthew’:

‘This is how Jesus Christ came to be born. His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph; but before they came to live together she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. Her husband Joseph, being an upright man and wanting to spare her disgrace, decided to divorce her informally. He had made up his mind to do this when suddenly the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because she has conceived what is in her by the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son and you must name him Jesus, because he is the one who is to save his people from their sins.”

‘…………………After Jesus had been born at Bethlehem in Judaea during the reign of King Herod, suddenly some wise men came to Jerusalem from the east asking, “Where is the infant king of the Jews? We saw his star as it rose and have come to do him homage.” When King Herod heard this he was perturbed, and so was the whole of Jerusalem. He called together all the chief priests and the scribes of the people, and enquired of them where the Christ was to be born. They told him, “At Bethlehem in Judaea, for this is what the prophet wrote: “And you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, you are by no means the least among the leaders of Judah, for from you will come a leader who will shepherd my people Israel.”

‘Then Herod summoned the wise men to see him privately. He asked them the exact date on which the star had appeared and sent them on to Bethlehem with the words, 'Go and find out all about the child, and when you have found him, let me know, so that I too may go and do him homage.'

‘Having listened to what the king had to say, they set out. And suddenly the star they had seen rising went forward and halted over the place where the child was. The sight of the star filled them with delight, and going into the house they saw the child with his mother Mary, and falling to their knees they did him homage. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh. But they were given a warning in a dream not to go back to Herod, and returned to their own country by a different way.

After they had left, suddenly the angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Get up, take the child and his mother with you, and escape into Egypt, and stay there until I tell you, because Herod intends to search for the child and do away with him.”

‘So Joseph got up and, taking the child and his mother with him, left that night for Egypt, where he stayed until Herod was dead. This was to fulfil what the Lord had spoken through the prophet: I called my son out of Egypt.

‘Herod was furious on realising that he had been fooled by the wise men, and in Bethlehem and its surrounding district he had all the male children killed who were two years old or less, reckoning by the date he had been careful to ask the wise men. Then were fulfilled the words spoken through the prophet Jeremiah:

‘A voice is heard in Ramah, lamenting and weeping bitterly: it is Rachel weeping for her children, refusing to be comforted because they are no more.

‘After Herod's death, suddenly the angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt and said, “Get up, take the child and his mother with you and go back to the land of Israel, for those who wanted to kill the child are dead.” So Joseph got up and, taking the child and his mother with him, went back to the land of Israel. But when he learnt that Archelaus had succeeded his father as ruler of Judaea he was afraid to go there, and being warned in a dream he withdrew to the region of Galilee. There he settled in a town called Nazareth. In this way the words spoken through the prophets were to be fulfilled: He will be called a Nazarene.’

The nativity story according to ‘Luke’:

‘Now it happened that at this time Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be made of the whole inhabited world. This census – the first – took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria, and everyone went to be registered, each to his own town.

‘So Joseph set out from the town of Nazareth in Galilee for Judaea, to David's town called Bethlehem, since he was of David's House and line, in order to be registered together with Mary, his betrothed, who was with child.

‘Now it happened that, while they were there, the time came for her to have her child, and she gave birth to a son, her first-born. She wrapped him in swaddling clothes and laid him in a manger because there was no room for them in the living-space.

‘In the countryside close by there were shepherds out in the fields keeping guard over their sheep during the watches of the night. An angel of the Lord stood over them and the glory of the Lord shone round them. They were terrified, but the angel said, “Do not be afraid. Look, I bring you news of great joy, a joy to be shared by the whole people. Today in the town of David a Saviour has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord. And here is a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in swaddling clothes and lying in a manger.'

‘And all at once with the angel there was a great throng of the hosts of heaven, praising God with the words: Glory to God in the highest heaven, and on earth peace for those he favours.

‘Now it happened that when the angels had gone from them into heaven, the shepherds said to one another,

“Let us go to Bethlehem and see this event which the Lord has made known to us.” So they hurried away and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby lying in the manger. When they saw the child they repeated what they had been told about him, and everyone who heard it was astonished at what the shepherds said to them. As for Mary, she treasured all these things and pondered them in her heart.

‘And the shepherds went back glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen, just as they had been told.

The nativity story according to Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla):

‘And so it was ordained: she conceived him. She withdrew to a distant place and, when the pains of childbirth drove her to (cling to) the trunk of a palm tree, she exclaimed, “I wish I had been dead and forgotten long before all this!” but a voice cried to her from below, “Do not worry: your Lord has provided a stream at your feet and, if you shake the trunk of the palm tree towards you, it will deliver fresh ripe dates for you, so eat, drink, be glad, and say to anyone you may see: “I have vowed to the Lord of Mercy to abstain from conversation, and I will not talk to anyone today.” She went back to her people carrying the child, and they said, “Mary! You have done something terrible! Sister of Aaron! Your father was not an evil man; your mother was not unchaste!”’ (Maryam: 22-28).

You have written: ‘In my view the narratives in Quran and Bible do not contradict, but they only appear so.’

Really?

The only agreement between the Gospel and Qur’anic narratives is that Mary was Yeshua’s mum, and that his conception was a miracle.

Where in the Gospel narratives do we read of Mary withdrawing from her people (her neighbours) in order to give birth alone?

If this is what really happened, then the Gospel narratives are a lie.

Where in the Gospel narratives do we read of her birth pangs; so intense that they cause her to cling to the truck of a palm tree, wishing that she had ‘been dead and forgotten long before all this!’?

If this is what really happened, then the Gospel narratives are a lie.

Where in the Gospel narratives are we told that she was succoured (by her Lord) with water and ripe dates?

If this is what really happened, then the Gospel narratives are a lie.

Where in the Gospel narratives are we told that, on returning to her people (carrying her new-born child), she is accused of the sin of being an unmarried mother: ‘Mary! You have done something terrible! Sister of Aaron! Your father was not an evil man; your mother was not unchaste!’?

If this is what really happened, then the Gospel narratives are a lie.

Rather than admit what is - at least to me - an obvious fact (that the narratives are mutually exclusive), you write: 'But, I believe the reason is, you are reading stories literally, whereas those narratives have spiritual significant and some expressions are symbolic'.

I am not interpreting these narratives at all - neither literally nor 'spiritually' - I am merely presenting them as they appear in their respective texts. It is clear to see that they differ considerably; to the extent that if one narrative is true the other can only be false.

You write: 'Now, quote from the bible and Quran the story of birth of Jesus, and I will show you how both mean the same, yet they appear to be different.'

Over to you....but please justify your opinions!

 

[Limo]

There is no evidence in history Jesus wrote the Injil Himself and reviewed it Himslef. You are making an assumption with no evidence.

Are you asking about historical evidence!!!!.
There is no single trusted historical evidence that Jesus exists

It seems to me, you are thinking in early Christianity injil was changed or got corrupted, when Gentiel Pauline Christians wrote many books (Gospels).

First of all, many early Chrisitans were believers in God and considered Jesus and His Book holy. It does not make sense they change a Book they believe it to be from God. T

You're making a mistake with many wrong assumptions.
In which God early Christians believe ?
There were many Christianities and Jewish believers in Almaseeh.
Some Christians believed in 2 gods, others in 3,4,, up to 360.
Do you think all this variety are using same untouched book... Absolutely not.
Every sect among all these should have their own books or at least a different version of the same book.
Even today, Churches are using different copies of Bible differ in books, chapters, sentences, and words

Secondly, from first century when Injil was corrupted according to you, till when Quran was revealed there are at least 500 years. Why did Allah leave them with a corrupted book for 500 years, when He could have protected Injil?
Think that Allah is fair. Assuming some Chrisitans corrupted the Injil, what is the fault of all other Chrisitans who were not involved in corrupting the Book? How would they be guided if their Book got corrupted? Don't say, Quran was revealed. That is not a proper answer because I am talking about Chrisitans who lived before Quran.

There were right believers Christians, there were several Unitarian /oneness Christians. There were a lot of books/papyrus/fragments of true Injeel. Even the 4 Gospel have some of the true Injeel.

What Christian have is enough to believe in last/sealed prophet with the last/sealed book. There is No prophet and No book after Mohamed and Quran. Many or even almost Christians accepted Islam in middle east.

You know that there are a lot of studies of evidences for prophet Mohamed is mentioned in Bible. However many Jews and Christians are not convinced but it's there.

Allah accepts Jews believers till Almaseeh, Unitarian Christians till Mohamed.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The nativity story according to ‘Matthew’:

‘This is how Jesus Christ came to be born. His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph; but before they came to live together she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. Her husband Joseph, being an upright man and wanting to spare her disgrace, decided to divorce her informally. He had made up his mind to do this when suddenly the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because she has conceived what is in her by the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son and you must name him Jesus, because he is the one who is to save his people from their sins.”

‘…………………After Jesus had been born at Bethlehem in Judaea during the reign of King Herod, suddenly some wise men came to Jerusalem from the east asking, “Where is the infant king of the Jews? We saw his star as it rose and have come to do him homage.” When King Herod heard this he was perturbed, and so was the whole of Jerusalem. He called together all the chief priests and the scribes of the people, and enquired of them where the Christ was to be born. They told him, “At Bethlehem in Judaea, for this is what the prophet wrote: “And you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, you are by no means the least among the leaders of Judah, for from you will come a leader who will shepherd my people Israel.”

‘Then Herod summoned the wise men to see him privately. He asked them the exact date on which the star had appeared and sent them on to Bethlehem with the words, 'Go and find out all about the child, and when you have found him, let me know, so that I too may go and do him homage.'

‘Having listened to what the king had to say, they set out. And suddenly the star they had seen rising went forward and halted over the place where the child was. The sight of the star filled them with delight, and going into the house they saw the child with his mother Mary, and falling to their knees they did him homage. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh. But they were given a warning in a dream not to go back to Herod, and returned to their own country by a different way.

After they had left, suddenly the angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Get up, take the child and his mother with you, and escape into Egypt, and stay there until I tell you, because Herod intends to search for the child and do away with him.”

‘So Joseph got up and, taking the child and his mother with him, left that night for Egypt, where he stayed until Herod was dead. This was to fulfil what the Lord had spoken through the prophet: I called my son out of Egypt.

‘Herod was furious on realising that he had been fooled by the wise men, and in Bethlehem and its surrounding district he had all the male children killed who were two years old or less, reckoning by the date he had been careful to ask the wise men. Then were fulfilled the words spoken through the prophet Jeremiah:

‘A voice is heard in Ramah, lamenting and weeping bitterly: it is Rachel weeping for her children, refusing to be comforted because they are no more.

‘After Herod's death, suddenly the angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt and said, “Get up, take the child and his mother with you and go back to the land of Israel, for those who wanted to kill the child are dead.” So Joseph got up and, taking the child and his mother with him, went back to the land of Israel. But when he learnt that Archelaus had succeeded his father as ruler of Judaea he was afraid to go there, and being warned in a dream he withdrew to the region of Galilee. There he settled in a town called Nazareth. In this way the words spoken through the prophets were to be fulfilled: He will be called a Nazarene.’

The nativity story according to ‘Luke’:

‘Now it happened that at this time Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be made of the whole inhabited world. This census – the first – took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria, and everyone went to be registered, each to his own town.

‘So Joseph set out from the town of Nazareth in Galilee for Judaea, to David's town called Bethlehem, since he was of David's House and line, in order to be registered together with Mary, his betrothed, who was with child.

‘Now it happened that, while they were there, the time came for her to have her child, and she gave birth to a son, her first-born. She wrapped him in swaddling clothes and laid him in a manger because there was no room for them in the living-space.

‘In the countryside close by there were shepherds out in the fields keeping guard over their sheep during the watches of the night. An angel of the Lord stood over them and the glory of the Lord shone round them. They were terrified, but the angel said, “Do not be afraid. Look, I bring you news of great joy, a joy to be shared by the whole people. Today in the town of David a Saviour has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord. And here is a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in swaddling clothes and lying in a manger.'

‘And all at once with the angel there was a great throng of the hosts of heaven, praising God with the words: Glory to God in the highest heaven, and on earth peace for those he favours.

‘Now it happened that when the angels had gone from them into heaven, the shepherds said to one another,

“Let us go to Bethlehem and see this event which the Lord has made known to us.” So they hurried away and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby lying in the manger. When they saw the child they repeated what they had been told about him, and everyone who heard it was astonished at what the shepherds said to them. As for Mary, she treasured all these things and pondered them in her heart.

‘And the shepherds went back glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen, just as they had been told.

The nativity story according to Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla):

‘And so it was ordained: she conceived him. She withdrew to a distant place and, when the pains of childbirth drove her to (cling to) the trunk of a palm tree, she exclaimed, “I wish I had been dead and forgotten long before all this!” but a voice cried to her from below, “Do not worry: your Lord has provided a stream at your feet and, if you shake the trunk of the palm tree towards you, it will deliver fresh ripe dates for you, so eat, drink, be glad, and say to anyone you may see: “I have vowed to the Lord of Mercy to abstain from conversation, and I will not talk to anyone today.” She went back to her people carrying the child, and they said, “Mary! You have done something terrible! Sister of Aaron! Your father was not an evil man; your mother was not unchaste!”’ (Maryam: 22-28).

You have written: ‘In my view the narratives in Quran and Bible do not contradict, but they only appear so.’

Really?

The only agreement between the Gospel and Qur’anic narratives is that Mary was Yeshua’s mum, and that his conception was a miracle.

Where in the Gospel narratives do we read of Mary withdrawing from her people (her neighbours) in order to give birth alone?

If this is what really happened, then the Gospel narratives are a lie.

Where in the Gospel narratives do we read of her birth pangs; so intense that they cause her to cling to the truck of a palm tree, wishing that she had ‘been dead and forgotten long before all this!’?

If this is what really happened, then the Gospel narratives are a lie.

Where in the Gospel narratives are we told that she was succoured (by her Lord) with water and ripe dates?

If this is what really happened, then the Gospel narratives are a lie.

Where in the Gospel narratives are we told that, on returning to her people (carrying her new-born child), she is accused of the sin of being an unmarried mother: ‘Mary! You have done something terrible! Sister of Aaron! Your father was not an evil man; your mother was not unchaste!’?

If this is what really happened, then the Gospel narratives are a lie.

Rather than admit what is - at least to me - an obvious fact (that the narratives are mutually exclusive), you write: 'But, I believe the reason is, you are reading stories literally, whereas those narratives have spiritual significant and some expressions are symbolic'.

I am not interpreting these narratives at all - neither literally nor 'spiritually' - I am merely presenting them as they appear in their respective texts. It is clear to see that they differ considerably; to the extent that if one narrative is true the other can only be false.

You write: 'Now, quote from the bible and Quran the story of birth of Jesus, and I will show you how both mean the same, yet they appear to be different.'

Over to you....but please justify your opinions!

There are not contredictions. The stories in Bible gives some more details, than given in Quran. Allah did not see the need to repeat all the details again. Allah in Quran is summarizing the same story and also He is explaining or expanding on some parts that was not in Bible because its details was not required before.
You are looking at holy Books as stories, and then you believe the Author of story must repeat the same things again in a later Book otherwise something is wrong. Whereas I don't see why Allah cannot add to a previous story later or omit some parts of it later. It all goes with His purpose of these stories. He is teaching lessons according to the needs of people. Bible was revealed to people who lived nearly 2000 years ago. Quran was a later revelation. Allah tailors stories based on what He intends to teach and emphasize to a people. The stories in Bible or Quran are not all literal histories!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In the Holy Quran it is written that Muhammad (PBUH) said:

“If they (Jews and Christians) had observed the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. Among them there are people on the right course but many of them are of evil conduct.”
(Quran 5:66)

Further;

Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.
(Quran 5:68)

It would appear Muslims are commanded in the Quran 4:136, to believe in the books God revealed to the Jews and the Christians.

O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray.

Yet most Muslims believe the Torah and Gospel the Jews and Christians hold in their possession to be corrupted and not the Torah and Gospel Muhammad spoke of.

Is the Gospel and Torah the Christians and Jews possessed in the time of Muhammad so different from today that it could be considered corrupted? If the Gospel and Torah was corrupted in Muhammad’s day, why is this never mentioned in the Quran?

My conclusion is, Muhammad possibly made it appear that Bible is corrupted, in the same way He made it appear Seal of Prophets means no more Revelations. Surely He knew that Muslims one day believe the Bible is corrupted, and if He had wished, He surely could make it clear that the Bible is not corrupted. In the same way that He surely knew, the term seal of prophets will be misunderstood, and if He had wished, He could have made it explicit in Quran that there will be another revelation after Quran. To me it is in line with God who guides and misguides.

 

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Note: Bahais don't believe in the day of judgment like Muslims do, even that is unclear. Conclusion to rest of Muslims: Who cares what they state is clear or unclear, they are very insincere to Quran.

 

[Niblo]

There are not contredictions. The stories in Bible gives some more details, than given in Quran. Allah did not see the need to repeat all the details again. Allah in Quran is summarizing the same story and also He is explaining or expanding on some parts that was not in Bible because its details was not required before.
You are looking at holy Books as stories, and then you believe the Author of story must repeat the same things again in a later Book otherwise something is wrong. Whereas I don't see why Allah cannot add to a previous story later or omit some parts of it later. It all goes with His purpose of these stories. He is teaching lessons according to the needs of people. Bible was revealed to people who lived nearly 2000 years ago. Quran was a later revelation. Allah tailors stories based on what He intends to teach and emphasize to a people. The stories in Bible or Quran are not all literal histories!

Hello again,

You claim that the nativity narrative in sūrah ‘Maryam’ is a summary of the Gospel narratives.

According to the Collins English Dictionary ‘a summary of something is a short account of it, which gives the main points but not the details.’

Here is a summary of the Gospel narratives:

Matthew writes that Mary and Joseph live in Bethlehem, and that Yeshua was born in their house. Very soon after, the entire family flee to Egypt; fearing that Herod the Great would have the child killed. They return to Palestine only after Herod's death. Fearing Herod's son, they do not return to Bethlehem, but instead move to the region of Galilee; and find a new home in Nazareth.

Luke writes that Mary and Joseph live in Nazareth; travelling to Bethlehem, just before Yeshua's birth, to register for a tax census. Unfortunately, there is no room for them in any hostel, and so they are obliged to make use of some form of animal shelter (we presume this because the child is placed in a ‘manger’). The family leave Bethlehem some days after the birth to visit the temple in Jerusalem, for the required ritual of the first-born. They then return to their home in Nazareth.

My gaster is absolutely flabbered that you consider the following to be a summary of these same narratives:

‘And so it was ordained: she conceived him. She withdrew to a distant place and, when the pains of childbirth drove her to (cling to) the trunk of a palm tree, she exclaimed, “I wish I had been dead and forgotten long before all this!” but a voice cried to her from below, “Do not worry: your Lord has provided a stream at your feet and, if you shake the trunk of the palm tree towards you, it will deliver fresh ripe dates for you, so eat, drink, be glad, and say to anyone you may see: “I have vowed to the Lord of Mercy to abstain from conversation, and I will not talk to anyone today.” She went back to her people carrying the child, and they said, “Mary! You have done something terrible! Sister of Aaron! Your father was not an evil man; your mother was not unchaste!”’ (Maryam: 22-28).

Maryam is a Meccan sūrah, and its message was directed at the polytheists of that city (and is now directed at us).

If, as you say, Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) intended to teach these polytheists the truth of Yeshua’s birth, then why not summarise the Gospel narratives (as I have done)? The only reason I can think of - for His not doing so - is that they are untrue.

My believe is that the Qur’anic narrative is true; and that its purpose is to correct the Gospel narratives.

By the way, I do not believe – as you appear to suggest – that the Gospels are 'literal histories’; far from it.

We may well discuss this matter at some later date, in šāʾ Allāh.

Peace!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Note: Bahais don't believe in the day of judgment like Muslims do, even that is unclear. Conclusion to rest of Muslims: Who cares what they state is clear or unclear, they are very insincere to Quran.

The Bahais believe the Day of Resurrection has come: This is the Day of Resurrection, but you did not know. The duration of stay of people of Islam was 1000 years, or one Day according to Quran. Islam does not last beyond its period:

"And those who have been bestowed with knowledge and faith will say: "Indeed you have stayed according to the Decree of Allah, until the Day of Resurrection, so this is the Day of Resurrection, but you knew not."" Quran 30:56


"They shall consult together secretly: You did tarry but ten (centuries).....
We know very well what they will say, when the justest of them in the way will say, 'You have tarried only a day.'" 20:103-105


"And they demand of thee to hasten the chastisement! God will not fail His promise; and surely a day with thy Lord is as a thousand years of your counting." 22:47



Imam Al-Bukhari narrates in his sahih from Abdullah Ibn Umar that he heard the Prophet of Allah say : ” verily your stay in comparison to the nations before you is like the time period between the prayers of ‘Asr ( mid-afternoon ) till sunset, The people of the Torah were given the Torah and they worked until noon and they couldn’t continue further, so they were given one Qirat, then the people of the Gospel were given the Gospel and they worked until the time of ‘Asr or mid-afternoon then they couldnt continue further, and were given a single Qirat, then we were given the Quran and we worked until the time of the sunset and were given two Qirats. (Seeing this) The people of the Book said :” Oh Allah you had given them (the ummah of Muhammad) two Qirats whereas you have given us only one and we are the most in terms of deeds.” He said,” Allah said (to them):” Have I oppressed in anything in your rewards?” and they said : “No.” (then) Allah said: “It is my bounty to whomsoever I wish I bestow”.



It is recorded in Biharulanwar: Amr from Shuraih bin Ubaid from Amr Bakai from Kaabul Ahbar that he said:
“The Caliphs are Twelve. When their demise approaches and a virtuous generation comes, Allah will prolong their lives. Such has Allah promised this Ummah. Then he recited:
وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مِنكُمْ وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ لَيَسْتَخْلِفَنَّهُم فِي الْأَرْضِ كَمَا
اسْتَخْلَفَ الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِهِمْ
“Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will most certainly make them rulers in the earth as He made rulers those
before them…” (Surah Nur 24:55)

He said: “Likewise did Allah, the Exalted, to the Children of Israel. It is not difficult that He may gather this Ummah in a day or half a day. And a day before your Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning


The prophet [may Allah bless him] said “When my Community keeps on the right, it is going to enjoy an age of one day, and when it does not keep on the right, it will have an age of half a day”. [al-Bayan, Tafsir of Surat al-‘Asr.]

In another version the Prophet said, “If my Community keeps on the right, it is going to enjoy an age of one day, and if it becomes corrupt, it will have an age of half a day.” [Al-Munawi cites it in Fayd al-Qadir from Shaykh Muhyi al-Din Ibn ‘Arabi.]