Did the Abrahamic God Create Evil?

[Anastasios]

"Virtue and Vise:
In order to understand the being and nature of the Satan one should know that there are two faculties that God has granted to the human beings; both these qualities are contrary to each other. And it is so because God would like to test the human beings as to how they would fare for his communion. One of these two faculties is that of virtue and it pulls the man towards religious deeds. The other faculty is the one that invites him to evil deeds. The faculty that draws the man towards virtue is called the Angel and the other one that calls him to evil is known as the Satan. In other words it can be said that there are two faculties working in conjunction with man. One calls him towards virtuous deeds and the other calls him towards evil deeds. Anyone who does not like the words the Angel and the Satan may try to understand this situation by thinking of two faculties - Virtuous and evil. This, nobody can deny.

God has never willed anything that can be called bad. Whatever He does is all good and nothing but good.
Behold! if there had been nothing like evil in the world, the virtue also would not have existed. Virtue is known by its comparison with evil just as evil is known by its comparison with virtue. For instance, if somebody has the opportunity to commit adultery and at the same time has the power to perpetrate this deed, yet he shuns it, we would call this act of his (to avoid adultery in these circumstances) an act of virtue. If somebody has the opportunity to steal or to do injustice and he is in a position to do these things yet he keeps away from these things he does an act of virtue. Let it be understood well that to have the opportunity of committing sin and yet avoiding it is virtue and that is what deserves good reward."

Mirza Gulam Ahmed (Malfoozat vol. 10, pg. 359)

 

[gnostic]

I form the light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (NRSV)

my above quote comes from the JPS 1917
this is the KJV
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

and this from the Judiaca Press
Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.

and 6 out of 9 of the christian versions in english listed at blueletterbible.com use the term "evil"

I have a 1985's version of JPS, which is a complete new translation, which read as:

I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe -
I the Lord do all these things.

As I had written in a different topic, "Evil spirits", it was God who allow Satan to inflict Job. And it was God (again) who sent evil spirit against King Saul, to possess him and make him jealous of David (1 Sam 16:14, and in 18:10). The original sin that Saul had committed that he didn't destroy all the animals and spare King Agag of Amalek, when he was ordered to massarce of trhe people (1 Sam 15).

In the case of Saul, it was very clear, who control the evil spirits, and it wasn't Satan.

 

[Ody]

He created all things, including evil.

Agreed, because you need evil to have good.

 

[sojourner]

Agreed, because you need evil to have good.

Does God need evil in order for God to exist?

 

[jewscout]

Does God need evil in order for God to exist?

then that begs the question does G-d need anything, for if He did that would mean that He is lacking in some capacity...

I have a 1985's version of JPS, which is a complete new translation, which read as...

however from what i can see the hebrew word in the scripture is still "Ra" which is usually, at least as far as i have seen it, translated as evil. You can call it "woe" or whatever but it still comes down to the fact that alot of the bad stuff in this world comes from G-d too.
Some would argue that man does evil, not G-d, and i think there is validity to that. However, the desire to do these bad things, desires like Greed and Lust, are desires implanted in us by G-d, thus we continue to find that He is the creator and we are simply the manipulators.
When we, as humans, do evil we are simply permitting that evil inclination to run our decision making.

 

[sojourner]

then that begs the question does G-d need anything, for if He did that would mean that He is lacking in some capacity...



however from what i can see the hebrew word in the scripture is still "Ra" which is usually, at least as far as i have seen it, translated as evil. You can call it "woe" or whatever but it still comes down to the fact that alot of the bad stuff in this world comes from G-d too.
Some would argue that man does evil, not G-d, and i think there is validity to that. However, the desire to do these bad things, desires like Greed and Lust, are desires implanted in us by G-d, thus we continue to find that He is the creator and we are simply the manipulators.
When we, as humans, do evil we are simply permitting that evil inclination to run our decision making.

I'm sure you'd know the hebrew better than I. But I think this is a theological point worth arguing. I think that causing evil is much, much different than causing woe. Evil is different stuff altogether than woe.

And (I'm going out on a limb here) I don't think God implanted greed and lust into us. Greed and lust are dark and void emotional states based upon selfishness, not selflessness. When we turn away from love, which is selfless (God is love), then we turn to ourselves, or selfishness. Greed and lust seek to satisfy the self -- selfless emotions seek to satisfy others.

Humans will do all sorts of things in the dark that many would never do in the light.

Darkness only exists when there is no light, because darkness is only the absence of light. Evil only exists where there is no good, because evil is only the absence of good.

 

[Popeyesays]

I'm sure you'd know the hebrew better than I. But I think this is a theological point worth arguing. I think that causing evil is much, much different than causing woe. Evil is different stuff altogether than woe.

And (I'm going out on a limb here) I don't think God implanted greed and lust into us. Greed and lust are dark and void emotional states based upon selfishness, not selflessness. When we turn away from love, which is selfless (God is love), then we turn to ourselves, or selfishness. Greed and lust seek to satisfy the self -- selfless emotions seek to satisfy others.

Humans will do all sorts of things in the dark that many would never do in the light.

Darkness only exists when there is no light, because darkness is only the absence of light. Evil only exists where there is no good, because evil is only the absence of good.

My meager frubals are yours, Rabbi. Abdu'l Baha says much the same to me.

Regards,
Scott

 

[gnostic]

Does God need evil in order for God to exist?

There are several cases in the scripture that God do thing to glorify oneself. From a human perspective, today, this sounds very conceited and selfish - and an attitude that you can expect from another human, but not from a god.

 

[jewscout]

I'm sure you'd know the hebrew better than I. But I think this is a theological point worth arguing. I think that causing evil is much, much different than causing woe. Evil is different stuff altogether than woe.

though the english word "woe" may denote something not quite as bad as "Evil" it STILL denotes that things that are bad in this world, things that cause us grief and sadness, come from G-d

i see where you are coming from, the whole "G-d is love" mentality, but understand, that this is a Christian teaching not one that is found in Judaism.

G-d loves, w/o a doubt He does but the belief that He IS Love comes from the Christian faith

And (I'm going out on a limb here) I don't think God implanted greed and lust into us

and again i have to disagree i completely believe that these heavily motivating forces were put there by HaShem. The Yetzer HaRa, the evil inclination, can be used for good! Lust makes you pursue a beautiful woman, who you are attracted to, you court, marry and then make babies! Greed causes you to work hard in your career, to excell and to get promoted to better positions that you might provide for your family and ultimately tithe your money to those less fortunate! These are ways we are meant to harness our evil desires for good, they are necessary desires for our lives w/o lust you would not procreate and without greed you would be a bum.

the point is not to let these desires rule you and end up making you controlled by these baser urges. That's when evil is created. But it is still something that was created by G-d that we manipulate to form evil (or good).

 

[michel]

Well.....looks to me that he did.

God neither created Good, nor Evil. He created man, who is flawed, and who is capable of doing evil or good deeds.

 

[Master Vigil]

God neither created Good, nor Evil. He created man, who is flawed, and who is capable of doing evil or good deeds.

But with that logic he created man's flaws, and the capabilites of doing evil and good. He then must have created the evil and good for us to have the capability to do, or else we wouldn't be able to do it. The only logical explanation (in my opinion) is that god is not an omniscient, omnipotent being, but the simple encompassment of the universe. Thus there is no problem with our perceptions being a part of it. For Tao does not play favorites, does not move to the left or the right, but just is. Our concept of good and evil is just our ego trying to compartmentalize our feelings and how we perceive the world around us.

That is just my opinion.

 

[Judgement Day]

But with that logic he created man's flaws, and the capabilites of doing evil and good.

I think that if God created man without flaws, then man would be angels. Angels do not have free will, they only do what God asks them to do. God created man purposedly with flaws so they can choose their own way.

JD

 

[sojourner]

though the english word "woe" may denote something not quite as bad as "Evil" it STILL denotes that things that are bad in this world, things that cause us grief and sadness, come from G-d

i see where you are coming from, the whole "G-d is love" mentality, but understand, that this is a Christian teaching not one that is found in Judaism.

G-d loves, w/o a doubt He does but the belief that He IS Love comes from the Christian faith


and again i have to disagree i completely believe that these heavily motivating forces were put there by HaShem. The Yetzer HaRa, the evil inclination, can be used for good! Lust makes you pursue a beautiful woman, who you are attracted to, you court, marry and then make babies! Greed causes you to work hard in your career, to excell and to get promoted to better positions that you might provide for your family and ultimately tithe your money to those less fortunate! These are ways we are meant to harness our evil desires for good, they are necessary desires for our lives w/o lust you would not procreate and without greed you would be a bum.

the point is not to let these desires rule you and end up making you controlled by these baser urges. That's when evil is created. But it is still something that was created by G-d that we manipulate to form evil (or good).

The "God is love thing" was what Jesus meant when he said "I came to fulfill the Law."

Desire makes you pursue a beautiful woman. Lust makes you want to do selfish things to her. Desire for success makes you work hard to make more money. Greed makes you keep all that new dough for yourself, not spending on anyone but yourself.
Without lust, you treat women with respect. Without greed, you become philanthropic.

 

[jewscout]

The "God is love thing" was what Jesus meant when he said "I came to fulfill the Law."

be that as it may it's still not something found in Torah.

Desire makes you pursue a beautiful woman. Lust makes you want to do selfish things to her. Desire for success makes you work hard to make more money. Greed makes you keep all that new dough for yourself, not spending on anyone but yourself.

Lust, Greed, Gluttony...these are all desires, as you said, desires that are in us. Who do you think but them there??
and as you illustrated these desires, when checked and harnassed are used for good, but when not can make you do evil acts.
these are our base, animalistic desires referred to in Judaism as our Yetzer HaRa.

 

[ashai]

This is the problem with these kinds of questions. There are so many definitions, premises, etc... In the end, it all depends on your definition of god, evil, and the way you see the relationship between the two and the world.

Me personally, I don't believe in god, or that the concept of evil exists outside of our minds. So you can definitely see my difficulty in answering the original question.

Ushta Master Vigil

I can see your predicament certainly. By the way Zoroastrians believe that good and evil are choices that canot exist in this plane, without their being manifestedg by somebody's thought and/or action. That is somewhat similar to your own belief, is it not?

Ushta Te
Ashai:bow:

 

[ashai]

He created all things, including evil.

Ushta Jewscout

Withinn Abrahamic theology , I agree. But not so in other religions. The problem is that if God created evil, then if he is good, love, etc he could not punish or condemn his creatures for doing what he himself created. That is why Abrahamic theology is contradictory on this point , not so much present Jewish theology which does not contemplate a hell, but Islamic and Christian theology that do.

Ushta Te
Ashai

 

[ashai]

Good/evil coming from God is classic dualism.

God didn't create good...God IS good. And Genesis tells us that, when God had finished creating, God called it all, "good."

Evil came about by humanity's tuning away from God. Evil is a human construct, not a divine construct.

Ushta Sojourner

Let's see, evil and good are names we give to the consequences of ethical choices. Natural evils, or acts of God, are not evil, ethically speaking, because they either spring from chance events (and chance must exist for free choice to be truly free) or they spring from events like earthquakes which actually preserve the planet, which would burst llike an over ripe tomato, if the pressures on its crust were not relieved by periodic earthquakes.:jiggy:

Don't believe it? OK. Name one evil or good that does not involve a choice by an ethically cognizant and endowed being . A choice in thought, word, and or, deed.:help:

As an example of what I mean, take 911, if Ozama had not thought of the attack and communicated his thoughts , it would not have happened. Indeed if the hi-jackers had decided not to Hi-jack the planes or not to smash them into the targets it, again, would not have happened. :tsk:

Again, the challenge is name an evil, or a good for that matter, that does not spring from the thoughts and or deeds of mortals. Of course this means, other than choices made by God, who at least to us Zoroastrians, is the source of all good, because, he has chosen it and will, always, choose it due to his wise and righteous nature.:dan:

Ushta te
Ashai

 

[ashai]

I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am HaShem, that doeth all these things.
Isaiah 45:7

Ushta Jew Scout

Precisely why, I have said before a just loving God would not punish his creatures for evil if he had created it. :tsk: Now since we Zoroastrians believe that God is the source of All Good and can do no harm, he theoretically could punish, but since S/He is All Wise and Loving S/He does not have to for S/He has already designed the Cosmos so that we all, eventually, receive the consequences of our choices, right for right, wrong for wrong.:bounce

Ushta te
Ashai

 

[ashai]

I think again the question with that verse is not 'did God create evil' but how did God create evil. If God created humans and Satan - knowing that they would allow sin into the world and hence evil - did God not create evil - or maybe more technically correct - allow evil to be created by what he created.
Evil is sin basically - God will not sin, Sin is rebellion against God - therefore God would have had to rebel against himself in order to create evil, something he would not do.
Evil isn't a force that exists separately from everything else - evil comes from within a man - not from without. It comes from within the fallen angels - not from without.
snip snip
Hope that makes some kind of sense....

Ushta Endless

What if, however, the Bible taught, like it apparently does in the OT, that God created evil? That would mean that it is contradicting itself and in the (supposed) words of a Jewish rabbi from Galilee " .. A house divided against itself cannot stand ... "

Ushta Te
Ashai

 

[ashai]

"Virtue and Vise:
In order to understand the being and nature of the Satan one should know that there are two faculties that God has granted to the human beings; both these qualities are contrary to each other. And it is so because God would like to test the human beings as to how they would fare for his communion. One of these two faculties is that of virtue and it pulls the man towards religious deeds. The other faculty is the one that invites him to evil deeds. The faculty that draws the man towards virtue is called the Angel and the other one that calls him to evil is known as the Satan. In other words it can be said that there are two faculties working in conjunction with man. One calls him towards virtuous deeds and the other calls him towards evil deeds. Anyone who does not like the words the Angel and the Satan may try to understand this situation by thinking of two faculties - Virtuous and evil. This, nobody can deny.

God has never willed anything that can be called bad. Whatever He does is all good and nothing but good.
Behold! if there had been nothing like evil in the world, the virtue also would not have existed. Virtue is known by its comparison with evil just as evil is known by its comparison with virtue. For instance, if somebody has the opportunity to commit adultery and at the same time has the power to perpetrate this deed, yet he shuns it, we would call this act of his (to avoid adultery in these circumstances) an act of virtue. If somebody has the opportunity to steal or to do injustice and he is in a position to do these things yet he keeps away from these things he does an act of virtue. Let it be understood well that to have the opportunity of committing sin and yet avoiding it is virtue and that is what deserves good reward."

Mirza Gulam Ahmed (Malfoozat vol. 10, pg. 359)

Ushta Anastasios

The problem with this theory is that if God gave mortals the faculty to do evil, then he cannot honestly or justly punish them for doing according to the faculkty that they were given. Nest ce pas?

Besides a wise god , need not gib ve the faculty of evil to test humans, there are many other ways to test the, if that is what he wanted. Moreover since in Abrahamic Theology God is all knowing. why would he need to test them, he would not before hand what they would do.:help: