Did the witnesses see Issa (Jesus) die on the cross?

[Muffled]

I believe however the witnesses did report what happened as well a what they witnessed so it can't be said that people were not told. It is just that people have managed to miss what was being said.

 

[Muffled]

I understand that many 'heretic' Gnostics were pushed out from Roman Empire to the East, they influenced Koran.
"The Gnostic Sage Basilides also believed that the crucifixion was a hoax to mock the Demiurge and his angelic mafia, except that poor Simon of Cyrene was nailed to a cross. The Second Treatise to the Great Seth has a Simon replacing Jesus, but it’s unclear which Simon."
How Did the Gnostics View the Crucifixion of Jesus? - Aeon Byte Gnostic Radio

I believe it was the angel speaking so there is no evidence of any other influence.

 

[Muffled]

Please read notes # 696,697,698,699 in the following links:
The Holy Quran
The Holy Quran
The Holy Quran
The Holy Quran

and one will know as to what happened with Jesus, as I understand.

Regards

I believe commentaries can be fun but they are not always correct. The comment that Jesus died of natural causes is false.

 

[leov]

I believe it was the angel speaking so there is no evidence of any other influence.

Ok.

 

[paarsurrey]

We take the next verse:

[4:156]
فَبِمَا نَقۡضِہِمۡ مِّیۡثَاقَہُمۡ وَ کُفۡرِہِمۡ بِاٰیٰتِ اللّٰہِ وَ قَتۡلِہِمُ الۡاَنۡۢبِیَآءَ بِغَیۡرِ حَقٍّ وَّ قَوۡلِہِمۡ قُلُوۡبُنَا غُلۡفٌ ؕ بَلۡ طَبَعَ اللّٰہُ عَلَیۡہَا بِکُفۡرِہِمۡ فَلَا یُؤۡمِنُوۡنَ اِلَّا قَلِیۡلًا ﴿۱۵۶﴾۪
Then, because of their breaking of their covenant, and their denial of the Signs of Allah, and their seeking to kill the Prophets unjustly, and their saying: ‘Our hearts are wrapped in covers,’ — nay, but Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not but little —
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 4: An-Nisa'
This also tell us about the misdeeds and the wrong concepts of the Jews that had crept up in them from the time of Moses to the time of Jesus.

Regards
___________
#12 [4:155]

 

[Firemorphic]

A god that cheated everyone for 600 years!!!! in believing what they saw?

(emphasis added)

The mainstream Church account, sure, but not all of the other hundreds of Christian and Gnostic sects that emerged out of that before the Catholic Church started whipping them down. You overexaggerate.

 

[Firemorphic]

I mean, look!
You can not even answer me on Sura 4: 157!
Just as thousands of Muslims could not do that over 10 years.
In 4: 157 we see how Allah somehow staged the crucifixion and the witnesses did see the crucifixion.
there is only 2 ways out of this Islamic predicament.
1. Accept that Muhammad did not like the Crucifixion narative, and he decided to come up with this claim that it did not happen.
2. God deliberatey deceived the people

Yes, 2, it is the default Islamic position, nothing controversial about it whatsoever. (aside from your kneejerk Christian reaction, which is not to be unexpected from you )

What are you having trouble with?
This is another situation like Mount Sinai, they're both incredibly significant events. Both pour some acid on the wound of mundanity.

If this is the case, John is quite correct to say that anyone who deliveres another Gospel than the ressurection of Christ, Is Satan!!!!

(emphasis added)

Oh, sure.

 

[paarsurrey]

We take the next verse:
[4:157]
وَّ بِکُفۡرِہِمۡ وَ قَوۡلِہِمۡ عَلٰی مَرۡیَمَ بُہۡتَانًا عَظِیۡمًا ﴿۱۵۷﴾ۙ
And because of their disbelief and their uttering against Mary a grievous calumny,
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 4: An-Nisa'
We come to the the times when Jesus was born to Mary.

Regards
____________

#12 [4:155] ,,#25 [4:156]

 

[paarsurrey]

Did the witnesses see Issa (Jesus) die on the cross?

Issa/Jesus did not die on the Cross, so there is no question of even a single truthful witness who could have seen Issa/Jesus dying on the Cross. Right, please?

Regards
__________
Search term: dying.
https://www.crossroadshospice.com/hospice-caregiver-support/.../what-is-active-dying/

 

[SA Huguenot]

Did the witnesses see Issa (Jesus) die on the cross?

Issa/Jesus did not die on the Cross, so there is no question of even a single truthful witness who could have seen Issa/Jesus dying on the Cross. Right, please?

Regards

Why do you put the word "Truthfull" in your question?
I dont understand.
lets look at the reality on your thinking and see what "truthfull witness" means.
You stand in front of a man being crucified in 33Ad.
There are a lot of people who came to see the event, because this man, the victim, was recconed as a great prophet who did miracles. In the last 3 years you saw him speaking tho audiences of thousands. Some time whole villages came to listen to what he preached. You knew people your whole life who were blind, lame, chronic sick etc, and they alle were healed.

Now you stand there and see him being crucified, and he died on the cross.

You are also a writer and you go and record everything you know about this man and what you saw on the Cross, how he died and so fourth.
There are thousands of people who also saw what you did, and three more people do what you did, write a book on what you saw.
These books were distributed throughout the country where this man lived and preached, and everyone is in agreement with the versions of these 4 writers.

Now, please note, so far we are not reading anything from the Bible at all, we take this as an explanation from the Quran that :
1. Jesus did miracles.
2. There were people who saw the crucifixion.
3. And we also go to the people who witnessed the crucifixion, and wrote what they saw.

And here we come back to the Islamic predicament:
"IT WAS MADE TO APPEAR!"

Now, your predicament is the following:
You now want to claim these WITNESSES, were FALSE WITNESSES AND NOT TRYTHFULL ONES!

Well, any intelligent person will see that the Quran says: IT WAS MADE TO APPEAR!, and will refute your allegation that these witnesses were UNTRUTHFULL.
Please take note, they were truthfull, but if the Quran is correct, they only recorded the corruption of Allah.
I am sorry my friend, but reality is that the Quran say that the Gospels are correct, but Allah deceived everyone for 600 years.
Or Muhammad was a great storyteller.
The choice is yours.

 

[Firemorphic]

Not a reply to me but:

There are a lot of people who came to see the event, because this man, the victim, was recconed as a great prophet who did miracles. In the last 3 years you saw him speaking tho audiences of thousands. Some time whole villages came to listen to what he preached. You knew people your whole life who were blind, lame, chronic sick etc, and they alle were healed.

Just remember that there's a third party claiming that Jesus didn't even exist

And here we come back to the Islamic predicament:
"IT WAS MADE TO APPEAR!"

It's really not a predicament. The emergence of so many non-canonical and Gnostic texts during that period also prove the point that there was a lot of mystery around the event of Jesus' life and supposed resurrection. As for the crucifixion, it's a lot like Mount Sinai, as I had said above. Both are theophanic displays, both are miraculous and both reflect a double-edged relationship between mankind and God.

I know it's a touchy subject for you though, because Jesus is God to you and represents God's redemption of man from the original sin of the Garden of Eden, as believed in Christian doctrine. It's not like Christians haven't had eternal hatred towards Islam because of this, hence your reaction is quite predictable.

Please take note, they were truthfull, but if the Quran is correct, they only recorded the corruption of Allah.
I am sorry my friend, but reality is that the Quran say that the Gospels are correct, but Allah deceived everyone for 600 years.

No it doesn't. The Qur'an never validates the NT, it only confirms that Jesus was a Prophet who was sent a Revelation (like both Moses and Muhammad, particularly). The Qur'an refers to this revelation as "The Injeel". Nowhere does it make it clear that it is referring to the Four Synoptic Gospels (accounts of Jesus' life chosen by the early Church) by the use of the phrase "The Injeel", which is a singular thing Jesus received.

Outside of the NT, how many other Gospels where written? quite a few. Clearly the Qur'an does not refer to an account(s) that somebody made, that'd be ludicrous.

 

[SA Huguenot]

No it doesn't. The Qur'an never validates the NT,

Yes it does!
Perhaps you just never read the Quran.
here we see that Allah say he revealed the Torah and the Gospel. And anyone who disbelieve His revelations will go to hell!

Sahih International: 3:3 He has sent down upon you, a Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.
3:4 Before, as guidance for the people. And He revealed the Qur'an. Indeed, those who disbelieve in the verses of Allah will have a severe punishment, and Allah is exalted in Might, the Owner of Retribution.

Here Allah say that No One can change His revelations!

Pickthall: And recite that which hath been revealed unto thee of the Scripture of thy Lord. There is none who can change His words, and thou wilt find no refuge beside Him.

and Here Allah say that the Christians should judge with the Gospel, only disobedient people will not use the Gospel to judge.

Sahih International: And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed – then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

Here Allah tells the Christians that they stand on NOTHING IF THEY DONT UPHOLD THE TORAH AND GOSPEL!

Sahih International: Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.

HERE ALLAH EVEN TELLS MUHAMMAD TO GO TO THE PEOPLE WHO HAS THE BIBLE AND TO ASK THEM IF THERE IS CONFUSION.

Sahih International: So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.

Now why did you think the Quran says the Bible is untruthfull and somehow something different than what the Christians and Jews had in 600 Ad?
Pal, in 600 AD the Gnostic school was gone!
The Christians at the time of Muhammad had the Bible which we have!

Any Muslim that wants to say the Bible is false, or corrupt, should ask themself, why did Muhammad in 630 Ad attest to the validity of the Bible, and never claimed the Bible was wrong.

Only in surra 4: 157 do we find this BLUNDER that destroys the validity of the Quran, and not the Bible.
Remembre, Allah say he revealed the Torah, and Gospel and no one can change his words.
If you say somehow Christians changed the Bible, you are saying Allah is a liar!
Allah say anyone that does that will go to hell!
So, even your Gnosticism school accusation is useless in this regard.

 

[Firemorphic]

There we see that Allah say he revealed the Torah and the Gospel. And anyone who disbelieve His revelations will go to hell!

Keyword is "Revealed". Revealed, not inspired. Revealed directly. The Injeel that the Qur'an refers to is the revelation Jesus received which was likely the direct source of his teachings. Even the NT itself is quite ambiguous about this however, which is telling.

The Torah is far more obvious in this regard but Jews know themselves that the word "Torah" refers to multiple things, including their two core literary traditions "Written Torah" and "Oral Torah", it can't be mistaken as a single thing.

Now why did you think the Quran says the Bible is untruthfull and somehow something different than what the Christians and Jews had in 600 Ad?
Pal, in 600 AD the Gnostic school was gone!
The Christians at the time of Muhammad had the Bible which we have!

No, it's simply that the Bible is a byproduct of a process of things, starting from the initial living subject towards later written literature. We all know when the NT was assembled, when the Tanakh was made 'canon' as well. This is not new ground to scholarship, Atheists have been bashing that since they've known about it.

Any Muslim that wants to say the Bible is false, or corrupt, should ask themself, why did Muhammad in 630 Ad attest to the validity of the Bible, and never claimed the Bible was wrong.

He didn't, you're just (via predictable Christian polemics) attesting that Muhammad did.

Only in surra 4: 157 do we find this BLUNDER that destroys the validity of the Quran, and not the Bible.
Remembre, Allah say he revealed the Torah, and Gospel and no one can change his words.
If you say somehow Christians changed the Bible, you are saying Allah is a liar!

Hot air.

Allah say anyone that does that will go to hell!

Doubtful, Jews and Christians are regarded as "People of the Book", you're considered under the wing so to speak. Never anywhere does it say that you're following correct or original revelations but it just affirms that you have the same heritage. This is one of the major reasons they call these three religions "Abrahamic" afterall. There is a discernible common ground, which is the most important part.

Aside from that, I doubt you even understand "hell", Christian dualistic notions of it just lead to falsehood.

So, even your Gnosticism school accusation is useless in this regard.

Not really, even the Gospel of John itself shows this strongly. There is a lot of dissent around this whole topic even in those four Synoptic Gospels themselves, again, another one of the things that Christians have pondered over the past 2000 years.
Gnosticism really destabilizes your narrative though because all those Gnostic sects paint very different versions of Jesus. There are very definable characteristics of their recordings of Jesus and his teachings, in comparison with the Synoptic Gospels but it does show that there was both confusion, dissent and competing views on Jesus. The general conception of Jesus as espoused by Christianity didn't seem to start crystallizing fully until after Saint Paul strutted his stuff, but even at that point there was no solid NT canon.
What do you think of Marcion of Sinope?
All of this is a very interesting topic btw.

 

[SA Huguenot]

No it doesn't. The Qur'an never validates the NT, it only confirms that Jesus was a Prophet who was sent a Revelation (like both Moses and Muhammad, particularly). The Qur'an refers to this revelation as "The Injeel". Nowhere does it make it clear that it is referring to the Four Synoptic Gospels (accounts of Jesus' life chosen by the early Church) by the use of the phrase "The Injeel", which is a singular thing Jesus received.

Are you saying Allah could not protect his revelations?
and these revelations the Christians and Jews had during Muhammad's time was not the revelations Allah gave, but those revelations was missing and a fraud in its place?
Are you accusing Allah of being a helpless god who lied when he said NO ONE CAN CHANGE HIS REVELATIONS?
ARE YOU MAKING YOURSELF SUPERIOR TO ALLAH AND THE QURAN?
DONT YOU KNOW ALLAH SEES WHAT YOU DO?
ALLAH IS QUICK IN HIS WRATH!

 

[Firemorphic]

Are you saying Allah could not protect his revelations?

Nobody said that.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Nobody said that.

You did!
You said that the Gospel and Torah that the Christians had at the time of Muhammad was false!
and if you did not say that,
You are saying that the Torah and Gospel which we now have is false!
You did accuse Allah of not able to protect his words!
This when Allah clearly say....NO ONE CAN CHANGE MY REVELATIONS.!!!
you accuse Allah of lying my friend, and if I were you, I will beg Allah to forgive me and to not sent me to hell!
And
I will go to that Imaam that taught me that blasphemy, and I will force him to repent!

 

[SA Huguenot]

Nobody said that.

Why the silence.
can we continue on this topick.
You are the only Muslim I thought that was going to give me an answer to my 10 year old question.
In only the Quran, "Was there witnesses that saw Jesus die on the Cross or not?"
Simple.
Yes according to the Quran, there was people who saw Jesus die on the Cross!
Whats the problem.
I call this the "Islamic Check Mate!"

Right. Agree?

 

[Samael_Khan]

It is not Jesus' religion. It is Paul's Pagan-Chirst-ianity, it has got nothing to Jesus' teachings. Right, please?

Regards

In Mark 13:10 Jesus says: "The gospel must first be preached to all the nations."

In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit"

In John 3:16 Jesus says: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Jesus himself, while on earth only preached to the lost sheep of Israel. He expected his disciples to go out to all the nations and preach and Jesus, the only Son, was given to the world by God so that whoever (not just Jews), could gain eternal life.