Did we fail God or did God fail us ?

[Quagmire]

We're failing ourselves, God's just letting us.

Because let's face it: we would whine even louder if He didn't.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am not a Christian but like to give my perspective

How can you define good if there is no evil?
You can’t

If god is objectively good why allow evil?
Because it’s part of his plan

"Why are you banging your head against that brick wall?"

"Because it feels so good when I stop."

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

My belief is that He created us to worship him alone with no partners. He puts obstacles in our lives to test us and one of those obstacles is Him letting the devil to tempt us. Not because He want to punish us but for us to repent and seek his forgiveness, for us to grow as a person, for us to becoming the best version of ourselves,

Reminds me of my narcissistic mother.. she made us so we could worship her & fulfil her needs. She would also say she was “testing us” to see how we would respond and then judge us for it. Horrible woman

 

[1213]

You choose your desires? Not just whether to act on your desires, but your actual desires?

Maybe not all, for example the desire to eat food may come automatically. However, it is possible also choose not to eat.

 

[1213]

Who is God though whom lets a serpent into the Garden to tempt? This contradicts your Bible quote of James.

No it doesn't. God is not tempting anyone. But, God gave freedom. And it means that people can have tempting ideas.

Also God being the Omni everything would certainly give lawful defense to the redeemable world, yet victimization happens all the time here on Earth. A perfect God enforces, and doesn't stand by and watch all this. God has no need of evil to let it exist, and run free.

People wanted to know evil like God. That is the reason why people were expelled to this "Matrix", where we can learn to know what evil truly means. God didn't have need to give this lesson, but people wanted it and God gave it. But don't worry, evil doesn't last forever.

God has given advice how to live well. If people don't want it, I don't think God can be blamed, if people have all kind of problems. I think God is great, because He gave the freedom. He is not like tyrannical humans.

God acts as though God does not exist and/or can't do anything right with God's creations.

If that would be true, we would not have the Bible.

 

[osgart]

No it doesn't. God is not tempting anyone. But, God gave freedom. And it means that people can have tempting ideas.

God is complicit in allowing temptation to God's new creations. Contradiction, plain and simple. God is Omni which means nothing happens that is out of his reach. The serpent could have been prevented but was allowed instead. Or did the serpent operate off away from God's detection?
In which case God makes mistakes; big ones.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Who says we're failing?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Maybe not all, for example the desire to eat food may come automatically. However, it is possible also choose not to eat.

You're talking about two different things:

- we have a desire to eat (and probably to different degrees for different people). This is not something that we control.

- when we have a desire to eat, we choose to act on this desire or not.

... so someone who has no desire to eat won't eat regardless of whether they have free will.

What desire do you have that you think you've chosen?

 

[1213]

... so someone who has no desire to eat won't eat regardless of whether they have free will.

I don't think that is true. I for example may eat, even if I have no desire to eat.

 

[1213]

God is complicit in allowing temptation to God's new creations. Contradiction, plain and simple...

Sorry, I don't see any contradiction in God allowing freedom, which can lead to temptations.

What do you think, criminals use roads, are governments complicit to their crimes, because they have provided the roads? Should governments demolish all the roads so that criminals could not use them?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't think that is true. I for example may eat, even if I have no desire to eat.

What motivates you to eat when you have no desire to eat?

 

[osgart]

Sorry, I don't see any contradiction in God allowing freedom, which can lead to temptations.

What do you think, criminals use roads, are governments complicit to their crimes, because they have provided the roads? Should governments demolish all the roads so that criminals could not use them?

Freedom of evil again, from an all powerful God creating life without any responsibility towards how they are treated/tempted in the Garden. And that wasn't God's first mistake. Creating Satan with angelic power without any foresight on what evil Satan could choose to do, and then after creating humans subject to the powers of Satan.

It's more than allowance when God is responsible and all powerful for God's life creations. There would have to be a good reason for allowing the serpent in the garden. Letting all that freedom happen and not having any actions is coincidentally equivalent to not existing. I don't owe your God anything.

 

[Kenny]

Christians say that we have given into temptation and thus evil entered the world but perhaps God is evil for allowing us to even be tempted into he first place.

I see it as “victim mentality” when we think that God is evil for allowing us to be tempted.

When I view love without choice, it looks robotic and controlling. I see love as demanding choice and freedom of will vs “you have to love me period”.

 

[Balthazzar]

I see it as “victim mentality” when we think that God is evil for allowing us to be tempted.

When I view love without choice, it looks robotic and controlling. I see love as demanding choice and freedom of will vs “you have to love me period”.

I see it as a failure to learn something when we blame God for allowing us to be taught through our experiences. Victim mentality is no less valid. I still don't understand why an oven mitt was never purchased. The food is always cold coming from the oven now. Cold food isn't bad and at least they learned not to touch the cast iron skillet, but man ... a nice warm meal is great at least once in a while.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I see it as “victim mentality” when we think that God is evil for allowing us to be tempted.

Not evil, just less than perfect.

I see it as pretty straightforward. When a creator creates a creation, there are only two possibilities:

1. The creation faithfully represents the vision and plan of the creator, or
2. The creation does not faithfully represent the plan and vision of the creator.

When we see evil in the world, should we assume option 1 or option 2? There are no other options.

When I view love without choice, it looks robotic and controlling. I see love as demanding choice and freedom of will vs “you have to love me period”.

But that's a false dichotomy.

As an analogy, think of an airplane: a well-balanced airplane, properly trimmed, flies straight and level almost by itself. You can steer it wherever you want to go, but getting it to follow a designated course to a specified destination takes very little effort.

OTOH, imagine an unbalanced, untrimmed aircraft: it takes extreme effort to fly straight and level or to follow a course. Getting it to a specific destination can be a feat of endurance, just barely possible.

In both cases, the pilot is "free" to fly as they choose, but the odds of success - of the plane getting to the destination - are much higher in one case than the other... and the differences are all things beyond the pilot's control.

 

[Kenny]

Not evil, just less than perfect.

This somewhat funny… it is like you are saying you are more perfect.

I see it as pretty straightforward. When a creator creates a creation, there are only two possibilities:

1. The creation faithfully represents the vision and plan of the creator, or
2. The creation does not faithfully represent the plan and vision of the creator.

When we see evil in the world, should we assume option 1 or option 2? There are no other options.

Yes… that is how you see it and certainly have the right to see it that way… but since when are there only two possible answers? Certainly we can’t say that we know all possibilities and making a blanket statement of “there are no other options” can make one think that you are the god that knows all things?.

That being said, if you give me only two options, I would pick #1.

Why?

Because the vision was establish in Genesis 1 & 2 which is also the ending of the same in Revelation. In between, what man’s vision is.

But that's a false dichotomy.

As an analogy, think of an airplane: a well-balanced airplane, properly trimmed, flies straight and level almost by itself. You can steer it wherever you want to go, but getting it to follow a designated course to a specified destination takes very little effort.

OTOH, imagine an unbalanced, untrimmed aircraft: it takes extreme effort to fly straight and level or to follow a course. Getting it to a specific destination can be a feat of endurance, just barely possible.

In both cases, the pilot is "free" to fly as they choose, but the odds of success - of the plane getting to the destination - are much higher in one case than the other... and the differences are all things beyond the pilot's control.

I can’t quite grasp the analogy.

“Very little effort” by a balanced airplane does not translate into error free because there is still free will And then you have the reality that the airplane is filled with non-emotional and computer chip driven elements.

So we still have mid-air collisions, taxiing collisions and other mishaps. All because of “human error”.

I don’t see how this negates what I said but rather shows that it is much more complicated than what you suggest in your 2 options.

 

[1213]

Freedom of evil again, from an all powerful God creating life without any responsibility towards how they are treated/tempted in the Garden. And that wasn't God's first mistake. Creating Satan with angelic power without any foresight on what evil Satan could choose to do, and then after creating humans subject to the powers of Satan.

Without any responsibility? I think that is not true. God told them not to do it. And instead of believing God, people rather believed the serpent. And God has also prepared way back to Him. And nothing of this world can destroy our souls, which is the important part. That is why I think it is wrong to say God has not done enough.

Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna...
Matt. 10:28-31

 

[1213]

What motivates you to eat when you have no desire to eat?

For example to be polite.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This somewhat funny… it is like you are saying you are more perfect.

Nope. I am happy to admit that I'm far from perfect, however we measure "perfect."

Yes… that is how you see it and certainly have the right to see it that way… but since when are there only two possible answers?

We know because "did the creation faithfully represent the vision and plan of the creator?" is a or yes or no question.

Certainly we can’t say that we know all possibilities and making a blanket statement of “there are no other options” can make one think that you are the god that knows all things?.

The statement is either true or false. What other options do you see?

That being said, if you give me only two options, I would pick #1.

Why?

Because the vision was establish in Genesis 1 & 2 which is also the ending of the same in Revelation. In between, what man’s vision is.

So you believe that a faithful representation of God's plan and vision includes evil?

I can’t quite grasp the analogy.

A poorly-designed plane will fail more often than a well-designed plane even if the poorly-designed plane is barely flyable.

The difference between how much poorly-designed and well-designed planes fail is the portion of the failure rate that's entirely on the designer of the plane.

When it comes to the idea of "free will", a lot of factors beyond our control still affect our behaviours. It's like that Penn Jillette quote: "I do rape and murder as much as I want; it's just that 'as much as I want' is zero." If there were a god and this god wanted people not to murder, a million people like Penn with free will would commit way fewer murders than a million people with free will but also with constant intrusive thoughts about killing people that they have to actively force themselves not to indulge. In these two scenarios, the excess murders in the "intrusive thoughts" scenario would all be the god's fault.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

For example to be polite.

IOW when someone has a desire to eat out of politeness than out of hunger. An impulse to be polite is still a desire we don't choose.

You're still talking about a scenario where we're choosing whether to act on our desires or not. We don't choose our desires, so the raw material that free will acts on - and therefore the outcomes of free will decisions - would be dictated by our designer, if we had one.