Did Yeshua (Christ) Stand Against Moses

[wizanda]

Mat 8:4
(4) And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

Mat 23:2-3
(2) Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
(3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Mar 7:9-13
(9) And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
(10) For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
(11) But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
(12) And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
(13) Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 

[Random]

Yeshua said elsewhere that the Law would be fulfilled throught him, and not one bit of it would be set aside, didn't he?

I am not a Christian, but I could interpret it the way Catholicism does as a former Catholic: that the promises of the OT were sanctified in the Christ.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Can you define "stand against"???

 

[wizanda]

Yeshua is simple and not religious; Moses was confusing, aggressive and religious....so i wonder did Yeshua mean more then is written as is often the case.....
Them statements all sound disgruntled at Moses.....
Which wouldn’t be that confusing, on the grounds that it wasn’t God, yet Moses’s father in law, who told him to write the books of law…..
Then on the grounds of what Lao Tzu’s said, the more laws you place over people, the more they then try to break these….where as less laws, means people keep to them….

 

[wizanda]

Lev 16:8-26
(8) And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the Azazel.
(9) And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
(10) But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the Azazel, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a Azazel into the wilderness.
(11) And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself:
(12) And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail:
(13) And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:
(14) And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.
(15) Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
(16) And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
(17) And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.
(18) And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about.
(19) And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.
(20) And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:
(21) And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
(22) And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
(23) And Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall put off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there:
(24) And he shall wash his flesh with water in the holy place, and put on his garments, and come forth, and offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people, and make an atonement for himself, and for the people.
(25) And the fat of the sin offering shall he burn upon the altar.
(26) And he that let go the goat for the Azazel shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward come into the camp.

Scapegoat replaced with the correct wording of Azazel; as is also written in the apocalypse of Abraham (explains whole thing) and other sources Azazel is the fallen angel.....
So if Moses knew this, yet we don’t without researching missing books (thank God for vision last night on this)……..as that would imply Moses is asking people to sacrifice also for the devil (as is now called, yet is a fallen angel, as no super power exists opposed to God, other then men [fallen angels are man]).

 

[robtex]

Wizanda, interesting thread. I would ask did Jesus ever even mention Moses or any of the other prophets of the OT including Amos, Ezekiel or some of the others? I always thought in general that the two testaments were a really rough fit and that authors of the first four gospels, Matt, Mark Luke and John did not in any way link JC to the OT. JC never wrote any of the bible so we do not have any written record of what he really thought or did which would make it difficult to ascertain an answer to your idea. The major ideas of the two books are similar. I saw the Torah after reading it as the idea of moving a population from polytheism to monotheism and I saw the nt as moving the population from whatever they were following to Jesus.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Wizanda, interesting thread. I would ask did Jesus ever even mention Moses or any of the other prophets of the OT ...

The authors of the NT have Jesus mentioning Moses on more than one occasion. See, for example, Mark 7:10 and Matthew 8:4.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Hmnnn,

the tenor of Jesus' words seem to be more directed at those who seek to be justified by the Law of Moses. At least to me.

 

[JayHawes]

Yeshua said elsewhere that the Law would be fulfilled throught him, and not one bit of it would be set aside, didn't he?

I am not a Christian, but I could interpret it the way Catholicism does as a former Catholic: that the promises of the OT were sanctified in the Christ.

Mt 5:17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mt 5:18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 

[JayHawes]

Yeshua is simple and not religious; Moses was confusing, aggressive and religious....so i wonder did Yeshua mean more then is written as is often the case.....
Them statements all sound disgruntled at Moses.....
Which wouldn’t be that confusing, on the grounds that it wasn’t God, yet Moses’s father in law, who told him to write the books of law…..
Then on the grounds of what Lao Tzu’s said, the more laws you place over people, the more they then try to break these….where as less laws, means people keep to them….

My mother once told me, dont touch the cookie jar. I tried to fight it, but i still touched it. I ate that cookie witha smile on my face and i paid for it later on....

My point is thus, it only takes one law or rule for people to want to break them, you dont need alot of them, it only takes one.

Jesus in the first set of Scripture mentioned is talking about the Pharisees. They were the religious group that constantly faced Jesus, and were ultimately the ones who had him killed, why? They accused Jesus of breaking the Law of Moses, because Jesus healed and sent a man that they had baned to the pool to be cleansed, and they did not like this (John 9). These men called the Pharisees were "separated from society" hence the meaning of parush "separated one." They were very strict with their interpretation of the law, and did not allow room for love, which Jesus brought back. Jesus was angry with them because they took the law and twisted it, and punished people for breaking a twisted law. Jesus was not mad at Moses, but those who held the seat that Moses held.

Was Jesus simple? NO;

Mt 22:22When they had heard these words, they marvelled,
Lu 20:26And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at his answer, and held their peace.
Mt 8:27But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!
Mt 27:14And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly.
Lu 2:33And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

These are but a few verses where the reponse Jesus gave went so far over their heads that all they could do was marvel at him.



Even so:
Lu 2:46And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.Lu 2:47And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.

Lu 2:48And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

Here Jesus stands in the midst of Doctors, and temple workers, and the Pharisees and Saducees, at the age of 12, and went so far over them with words that even they were amazed. Friend, I tell you, Jesus was not Simple, and he was religious, he just was not a zealot- except for doing God's will. I could, if nesscesary, quote you the verses where Jesus kept the practices of Judaism.

 

[wizanda]

So in the apocalypse of Abraham, Azazel (Fallen angel – Evil) kisses Christ as a test of the nations….


So why does Moses tell you to sacrifice also for Azazel; as well as God?

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

It is interesting you ask this, I have been thinking about it for quite a while.

I think Yeshua didn´t stand against Moses, that is the reason why he never contradicted Moses, but complemented his teachings.
Moses was dealing with a very animalistic society, they were very primitive people that killed, raped, worshiped many gods, and did as many evil things as we could possibly imagine. Moses stablished a "moral conduct" to these people.

This doesn´t change the fact that the old teachings of Moses needed to die, in order for the new teachings of Jesus to take place. Just like a seed needs to die in order to give birth to a tree, a lower truth needs to die in order to give birth to the higher truth.

Moses taught people to "wear masks" in order to hide their ugly faces. Jesus taught people to make "plastic surgery"; please don´t take that literally, I´m talking about inner-transformation.

Why didn´t Moses teach the same things as Jesus did? Because if he would have, we would have been killed at the spot!!

 

[wizanda]

After a dream last night, what would be the difference in trust between Moses and Yeshua?…as in purpose and cause?…Moses is very hard reading, find it very cold hearted stoning people to death…

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

After a dream last night, what would be the difference in trust between Moses and Yeshua?…as in purpose and cause?…Moses is very hard reading, find it very cold hearted stoning people to death…

Maybe the people took that sentence out of context when he was explaining something else. People use anything to excuse their egocentric actions, and I´m sure Moses didn´mean that.

After all, it doesn´t say: "You shall not murder, except when you are an adulterous woman".

 

[Vor]

Mat 8:4
(4) And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

Mat 23:2-3
(2) Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
(3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Mar 7:9-13
(9) And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
(10) For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
(11) But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
(12) And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
(13) Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

(there are so many pages, I'm sorry if I answer questions already answered)

but I don't see him standing against Moses in these verses
he says "offer the gift that moses commanded" in the first one
in the second one is difficult to me, it brings up more questions...in context it is basically saying to do what those who are enforcing the law command but don't do as they are doing because (at the time) they were being hypocritical, doing things only to be seen by men, rewarded with respectful greetings etc. So even here he is far from contesting with Moses but much more so "to fulfill the law"
and in the last set of verses he is protecting the word of G-d from useless traditions that have krept in over the ages.