Did you know the English rendering of "hell" in the bible created a false teaching from its original languages?

[exchemist]

Hebrew(Old Testament)
1"Sheohl" the correct translation would be grave, pit

Greek(New Testament)
2"Hades" same as "sheohl" meaning grave, pit
3"Tartarus" meaning a holding place(prison) for rebellious angels(demons) awaiting judgement
4"Gehenna" Greek transliteration of the Hebrew term "Valley of Hinnom"
5? Lake of fire

Why is this important?
1.
Because of the false teaching of hell there are many left wondering if they or a loved one suffers after death- which they dont. The bible clearly teaches the "dead know nothing"- Eccl 9:5
2.
The biggest reason the truth matters is for God's reputation. Burning people alive forever is not an act from a loving or just God. Their ceasing to exist is enough of a punishment, "For the wages sin pays is death"-Rom 6:23 The false teaching of hell pushes people away from Him...who would want to serve that unjust god?

Yes I think most of us are aware of this about Sheol.

But we also have to keep in mind the teaching of Christ, esp. in St. Matthew's gospel (?) about eternal fire and punishment after judgement (e.g. his explanation of the parable of the darnel).

 

[seekandfind]

Yes I think most of us are aware of this about Sheol.

But we also have to keep in mind the teaching of Christ, esp. in St. Matthew's gospel (?) about eternal fire and punishment after judgement (e.g. his explanation of the parable of the darnel).

How about Gehenna and tartarus? If you learn what Gehenna is youll learn there is no literal eternal fire. The fire is stictly a description of complete destruction- those judged unrighteous will cease to exist.

 

[seekandfind]

What is one of them?

 

[exchemist]

How about Gehenna and tartarus? If you learn what Gehenna is youll learn there is no literal eternal fire. The fire is stictly a description of complete destruction- those judged unrighteous will cease to exist.

Which of these did Christ refer to?

 

[shunyadragon]

And its still growing!

Mold?

 

[seekandfind]

Which of these did Christ refer to?

Exactly. Which one and what did it mean in Jesus' time? To his listeners?

 

[exchemist]

Exactly. Which one and what did it mean in Jesus' time? To his listeners?

If what you have been saying is right, perhaps none of them, i.e he was proposing a different, new, conception. But what is clear is he did explicitly warn of a condition of punishment (wailing and gnashing of teeth etc). I understand some theologians hypothesise, however, that this condition may be self-imposed, rather than imposed by God as retribution.

 

[seekandfind]

If what you have been saying is right, perhaps none of them, i.e he was proposing a different, new, conception. But what is clear is he did explicitly warn of a condition of punishment (wailing and gnashing of teeth etc). I understand some theologians hypothesise, however, that this condition may be self-imposed, rather than imposed by God as retribution.

Gehenna the word Jesus used in most of his teachings. It was a literal place outside of Jerusalem where trash was burned. It had a different origin though...
Jer 7:31 "They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom(Gehenna), in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart."

Either era of Gehenna he was referring had the same result. Destruction by fire- ceasing to exist.

 

[Soapy]

How about Gehenna and tartarus? If you learn what Gehenna is youll learn there is no literal eternal fire. The fire is stictly a description of complete destruction- those judged unrighteous will cease to exist.

Absolutely right!

As said before, the great fire DESTROYED every part of what was out in it so those things no longer existed in any way, shape, or form. And so, too, with the “Spiritual Fire” (Spiritual inferno) that will DESTROY the Spirit (and thus the Souls) of the Wicked, meaning Wickedness, and those who commit wickedness and their wicked deed, will no longer exist or ever be brought back to mind.

I would ask anyone who thinks of eternal torture in any way, what do they think would be tortured and how? My bet is that they will suddenly pause for a long time after realising there is no answer - but they will be drawn to make up some foolishness just to maintain the fallacies they have grown accustomed to!

Even accepting the truth here… they will revert to believing the lie elsewhere since many people enjoy the horror of being afraid and fear filled: Fatalism - is that what it’s called?

 

[seekandfind]

Absolutely right!

As said before, the great fire DESTROYED every part of what was out in it so those things no longer existed in any way, shape, or form. And so, too, with the “Spiritual Fire” (Spiritual inferno) that will DESTROY the Spirit (and thus the Souls) of the Wicked, meaning Wickedness, and those who commit wickedness and their wicked deed, will no longer exist or ever be brought back to mind.

I would ask anyone who thinks of eternal torture in any way, what do they think would be tortured and how? My bet is that they will suddenly pause for a long time after realising there is no answer - but they will be drawn to make up some foolishness just to maintain the fallacies they have grown accustomed to!

Even accepting the truth here… they will revert to believing the lie elsewhere since many people enjoy the horror of being afraid and fear filled: Fatalism - is that what it’s called?

I agree. One thing that you said however, "DESTROY the Spirit (and thus the Souls)". Did you know the spirit doesnt get destroyed? The original writings use "spirit" as breath, wind, energy. It is different from "soul" which is life, person.

"Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it."- Eccl 12:7

 

[Windwalker]

Excellent.
About Gehenna, the real place to burn trash outside Jerusalem, itt had a scriptural history prior to a trash heap. The original use was quite possibly what Jesus was teaching..."They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’- Jer 7:31

This is a great source of Bible truth as Jesus' listeners would have learned 2 things. 1 They knew those children werent still alive so it would teach that the death he spoke of was permanent. 2 It shows burning people "never even came into" Gods heart.

Yes, the God who is the embodiment of both love and justice would not burn people forever.

I think you may be misunderstanding the reference in Jer 7:31. This is not talking about cremation practices. It is referring to child sacrifices. They were either alive when they were put into the fires, drums pounding loudly to drown out their screams, or they were killed right before being "passed through the fire".

Refer back to 2 Kings 23:10, "He desecrated Topheth, which was in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, so no one could use it to sacrifice their son or daughter in the fire to Molek."

Here's some more on the practice from this Wiki article: Tophet - Wikipedia.

"The text includes the destruction of the Tophet among Josiah's other removal of "deviant" religious practices from Israel as part of a far reaching religious reform.[8] However, the continued condemnation of both the tophet and related practices by prophets such as Jeremiah and Ezekiel suggests that the practice may have continued after Josiah's reform, with a mention of the tophet by Isaiah suggesting it may have even continued after the Babylonian exile.[9] Prior to Josiah's reform, the ritual of passing a child through the fire is mentioned, without specifying that it took place at the tophet, as having been performed by the Israelite kings Ahaz and Manasseh:​

​

But [Ahaz] walked in the way of the kings of Israel, yea, and made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel. (2 Kings 16:3)​

​

And [Manasseh] made his son to pass through the fire, and practised soothsaying, and used enchantments, and appointed them that divined by a ghost or a familiar spirit: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him. (2 Kings 21:6)​

​

Both kings perform the sacrifices when faced with the prospect of wars.[10] The sacrifices appear to have been to Yahweh, the god of Israel,[11] and to have been performed in the tophet.[2]​

 

[seekandfind]

I think you may be misunderstanding the reference in Jer 7:31. This is not talking about cremation practices. It is referring to child sacrifices. They were either alive when they were put into the fires, drums pounding loudly to drown out their screams, or they were killed right before being "passed through the fire".

Refer back to 2 Kings 23:10, "He desecrated Topheth, which was in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, so no one could use it to sacrifice their son or daughter in the fire to Molek."

Here's some more on the practice from this Wiki article: Tophet - Wikipedia.

"The text includes the destruction of the Tophet among Josiah's other removal of "deviant" religious practices from Israel as part of a far reaching religious reform.[8] However, the continued condemnation of both the tophet and related practices by prophets such as Jeremiah and Ezekiel suggests that the practice may have continued after Josiah's reform, with a mention of the tophet by Isaiah suggesting it may have even continued after the Babylonian exile.[9] Prior to Josiah's reform, the ritual of passing a child through the fire is mentioned, without specifying that it took place at the tophet, as having been performed by the Israelite kings Ahaz and Manasseh:​

​

But [Ahaz] walked in the way of the kings of Israel, yea, and made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel. (2 Kings 16:3)​

​

And [Manasseh] made his son to pass through the fire, and practised soothsaying, and used enchantments, and appointed them that divined by a ghost or a familiar spirit: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him. (2 Kings 21:6)​

​

Both kings perform the sacrifices when faced with the prospect of wars.[10] The sacrifices appear to have been to Yahweh, the god of Israel,[11] and to have been performed in the tophet.[2]​

Right. My point was that they ceased to exist which was what Jesus was teaching. He wasnt teaching sacrifices.

 

[Soapy]

I agree. One thing that you said however, "DESTROY the Spirit (and thus the Souls)". Did you know the spirit doesnt get destroyed? The original writings use "spirit" as breath, wind, energy. It is different from "soul" which is life, person.

"Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it."- Eccl 12:7

No. You are thinking incorrectly.
The Soul is the Spirit and the body that it occupies, animates, control in the physical world.

KILLING the person / Soul, only means that the Spirit gets to be released from the body. The body can no longer function and will decay to dust. The Spirit goes ‘up’ to rest inert, dormant, uncommunicative, with God. It isn’t ‘dead’… never said that. The Spirit, agreed, is immortal. It cannot DIE!!!

Die, Killed, Death, are meaning the Spirit removed from the body….

DESTRUCTION destroys the immortal Spirit. If the Spirit is destroyed it stands to reason that the body is also destroyed since there can never be the spirit to put back into it to animate it.

I think you are not understanding the difference as I illustrate it to you, between DEATH, and DESTRUCTION.

Can you understand from this analogy:

• A Computer controlled Robot (Soul / Person) is Software (Spirit) controlling Hardware (Body).
• The hardware, without the software is nothing nothing but a heap of machinery and electronics.
• The Robot only becomes ‘Alive’ when software is put into the hardware and activated. The Robot is now a LIVING SYSTEM.
• If the Robot is damaged, the Software ‘does not die’… but the machinery of the robot no longer functions and will, if left so, decay to rust and dust.
• But the Software is still available on a disc that can be put back into a new, or reconstituted, or mended machinery for the Robot.
• BUT if the SOFTWARE is DESTROYED then there is nothing to re-animate the robot even if its body is mended… either way, the machinery of the robot will decay to dust and the Robot becomes nonexistent.

You know the verse:

• “And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matt 10:38)

I want to draw your attention to the wording that I highlighted in that verse:

1. ‘Kill the body’… Man can kill the body - cause the Spirit to be drawn out of the body therefore the body decays to dust. The Spirit exists still sleeping inert WITH GOD awaiting the resurrection in which Jesus places the spirit back into a reconstituted body and reanimate it
2. ‘Destroy the Soul’… God can destroy the Soul.. which means that the SPIRT is destroyed - and OBVIOUSLY then the body would also be decay back to dust.

Always, KILL, DIE, DEATH… the Spirit is still Living but inert, resting with God. At the resurrection the inert Spirit is put back, now activating the reconstituted body.
DESTROYED… The Spirit is no more… there can be no reanimating of the body even if reconstituted.., ALL OF THE PERSON is eternally nonexistent. ONLY GOD can destroy the Spirit… and this is what happens to the wicked AT THE END OF TIME!!

 

[seekandfind]

There are no scriptures saying the spirit dies or gets destoyed. It only says when the life(soul) is dead the spirit(breath, energy) goes out and returns to God. The scriptures dont conclude that the spirit is inactive or dormant. Its Gods energy, he can use it for something else or nothing- the scriptures dont say.

 

[Soapy]

There are no scriptures saying the spirit dies or gets destoyed. It only says when the life(soul) is dead the spirit(breath, energy) goes out and returns to God. The scriptures dont conclude that the spirit is inactive or dormant. Its Gods energy, he can use it for something else or nothing- the scriptures dont say.

I’m failing to see his you can say that there is no scripture saying that the Spirit gets destroyed.

It is true that the Spirit CANNOT DIE… but certainly the Spirit CAN BE DESTROYED and indeed at the end of time THE DEMON SPIRITS including SATAN, AND the SPIRIT of those who Jesus deems as WICKED shall be destroyed eternally.

Please reconsider your position in this matter and see the following:

1. Man is Spirit and body
2. Though the body can perish through being killed or natural decay, the Spirit remains but is then in a dormant state as of had no body to act through
3. When God desires a resurrection, recreates a body and puts that spirit into that body to reanimate the body. The spirit now can act through that body
4. At the end of time the wicked are resurrected as are the good bug the spirit of the wicked are destroyed in an everlasting manner so that there will be no remembrance of them
5. Almighty God is ‘The Creator of Spirit’. Only he can create a spirit and only He can destroy it… He or whom He delegates that power to!!

p.s. SOUL is simply Spirit in Body - a PERSON.

If the body is killed, the Spirit is not killed but goes up to rest with almighty God who created it, awaiting the resurrection!!!

Because the Spirit is NOT DEAD it stands to reason that the SOUL / the PERSON is also not DEAD.

Be careful about the word ‘DEAD’. Being DEAD is a HUMAN TERM which means that the SPIRIT of the Soul/Person is not able to communicate nor interact IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD, nor any Soul/Person in the physical world able to communicate / interact with a Spirit that is resting with almighty God.

In the eyes and mind of GOD… that Soul/Person is MERELY AT REST IN HIM AWAITING A RESURRECTION:

• ‘Dead to the world - Resting with God’

 

[seekandfind]

I’m failing to see his you can say that there is no scripture saying that the Spirit gets destroyed.

It is true that the Spirit CANNOT DIE… but certainly the Spirit CAN BE DESTROYED and indeed at the end of time THE DEMON SPIRITS including SATAN, AND the SPIRIT of those who Jesus deems as WICKED shall be destroyed eternally.

Please reconsider your position in this matter and see the following:

1. Man is Spirit and body
2. Though the body can perish through being killed or natural decay, the Spirit remains but is then in a dormant state as of had no body to act through
3. When God desires a resurrection, recreates a body and puts that spirit into that body to reanimate the body. The spirit now can act through that body
4. At the end of time the wicked are resurrected as are the good bug the spirit of the wicked are destroyed in an everlasting manner so that there will be no remembrance of them
5. Almighty God is ‘The Creator of Spirit’. Only he can create a spirit and only He can destroy it… He or whom He delegates that power to!!

The human spirit does no such thing.
"Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it." Eccl 12:7

The spirit is no essance of our personality. It is breath, wind, energy, or an active force. As you said, it animates our body. But it doesnt go dormant according to scripture. It returns to God. WE are dormant when we die as we only exist in Gods memory at that point- until the resurrection.

 

[Soapy]

The human spirit does no such thing.
"Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it." Eccl 12:7

Sorry, what did I say about the human spirit that is different to what you just said?

Did I not just say the same thing that you just replied, ‘The human spirit does no such thing’?

The spirit is no essance of our personality. It is breath, wind, energy, or an active force. As you said, it animates our body. But it doesnt go dormant according to scripture. It returns to God. WE are dormant when we die as we only exist in Gods memory at that point- until the resurrection.

Yes, the Spirit is like Breathe - it s the LIFE FORCE of the Soul. It enlivens the Body.

It matters not if it is called “only in God’s memory” or “Resting dormant with God”.

If the software in the system (body) of a computer is removed and put into storage it is:

• Inactive … Dormant… At Rest… Inert… Latent…
• And yes, “In the mind of its creator awaiting a time to put it back into a computer system (body) and resurrect that system

Why are you disagreeing and yet agreeing at the same time??

 

[seekandfind]

Sorry, what did I say about the human spirit that is different to what you just said?

Did I not just say the same thing that you just replied, ‘The human spirit does no such thing’?


Yes, the Spirit is like Breathe - it s the LIFE FORCE of the Soul. It enlivens the Body.

It matters not if it is called “only in God’s memory” or “Resting dormant with God”.

If the software in the system (body) of a computer is removed and put into storage it is:

• Inactive … Dormant… At Rest… Inert… Latent…
• And yes, “In the mind of its creator awaiting a time to put it back into a computer system (body) and resurrect that system

Why are you disagreeing and yet agreeing at the same time??

Your claim is that its dormant. God can use that energy for whatever he wants.

 

[Soapy]

Your claim is that its dormant. God can use that energy for whatever he wants.

You perceive differently.

 

[seekandfind]

You seem to put human essance(character, personality) on the spirit. There isnt any.