Salvation isn't a rewards-based proposition. That would make it something that we attain, rather than something that is an undeserved gift.
It is an undeseved gift, whom god unconditionally gives to his elect.
You appear to forget that God's Son was fully one of us. You seem to want to pit "us" against "them." What you appear to fail to understand is that there is no "us" vs. "them." It's not a war. It's a family. With God as its head. We are not criminals sitting under a hot lamp, with God playing the part of "bad cop" and Jesus playing the part of "good cop." We are created good, in the image of God. We are fearfully and wonderfully made. Why would we need to find ourselves in the heavenly police station, being fingerprinted like common criminals?
God was one of us so that he can sympathize with our weaknesses. If that was all he was here for then he didnt have to die on the cross and simply remained alive to keep on sympathizing.
Forgiveness is a principle. Wrath is not.
Forgiveness is extended to someone so is wrath. Its an ACT and both of them is within gods character to do.
In other words, the crucifixion, designed to eradicate sin, was ineffective. So God ends up not only hating the sin, but hating the sinner, as well?
Apparently you seem to forget that unbelief is rampant. If the death of jesus eradicated unbelief then there would never be the need to say 'believe in the lord jesus and you will be saved'. It never says, jesus will believe for you.
Christ died for us -- not for his own glory.
Incorrect. God did not die FOR us, it would imply that we had merit for him to do it, god died for the glory of his name. Jesus didnt die for us as much as he died for the glory of the father:
John 12:27
27"Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? `Father, save me from this hour'? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28Father, glorify your name!"
The reason chirst endure the cross, as clearly shown by scripture is....TO GLORIFY THE NAME OF THE FATHER. We tap into all that jesus did for his father's glory's sake.
Neither did he regard his Divinity a thing to be exploited. But he humbled himself, becoming one of us.
He humbled himself in order to become a man. But he never ever would presume anybody to trample on god.
I didn't say that. You said it -- in so many words. I just clarified what you said.
If (as you seem to think) the crucifixion was to save us from sin, but many of us will still end up destroyed, then that act means nothing.
I dont think you know what I have said at all. All this mulitquoting is getting your head mixed up
If, as I believe, the crucifixion was a brutal act of terrorism perpetrated upon Jesus by the Romans, the crucifixion, itself is meaningless. it is only the willing participation -- the self-sacrifice -- of God that brings any meaning to it.
Then you deny god the opportunity to have the glory for what jesus did on the cross, you are stripping god of his glory by saying he was a victim of man. You are saying that god was defeated by men. You are indeed talking against the glory of god.
But you say that God is conditional in that election.
You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Im not you are listening with 1/2 an ear. I said that god unconditionally elects. That means he elects, HOW? Unconditionally. He does not elect because we deserved it, he elects us due to no reason or worth of our own.
You interpret gods unconditional love to mean he has no freedom to elect. And im saying you are wrong. God can even be unconditional in electing unconditionally.
All people devalue God through sin. That's why grace is necessary. So that all may have a share in God's glory.
And yet gods grace like his gift of salvation is a gift which he unconditionally gives to his elect so that no man can boast. Neither is god required or boxed in by someone to force him to extend or give his gift to everybody. Those to whom he predestined to give the gift, he chose, he then called the ones he chose, and he then justified them, and then he saved them.
God's value, as a good and merciful God, has only as much value as God's ability and willingness to be good and merciful. Creating some for, and consigning some to, a lake of fire devalues God.
Gods glory is his own to reveal in which ever way he chooses. God does not have to extend his mercy or his grace or his wrath to anybody we think he should. God is sovereing and entirely free to extend his grace and mercy to whomever he chooses.
That's horse-and-buggy, old covenant thinking. We're under a new covenant, in which the consequences of our sin are, as you claim, "paid for" on the cross... if the work on the cross were actually effective.
And if you have the time, please enlighten me to the what the OLD covenant for the gentiles were exactly.
Happily, the new covenant puts us in harmony with God by placing us in Christ. All of us.
Lovely....the NEW covenant for the gentiles must mean an old covenant for the gentiles. Where is that in the bible, id love to know.
A
universal God -- that is, a God of humanity -- calls all humanity
A universal god can choose to send some to the lake of fire for exactly the same reason he could choose to save others.
God is sovereing. Why will you the creature cross question god and ask him, 'why have you made me such''
When the pharisess did not believe in jesus he stripped them of their self-opinionated pride and told them.. ''you dont believe because you are not one of my sheep''
Believe is dependant on being a sheep. And the bible talks about wolves as well. Not that you read the bible...but just incase you get a chance.
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