difficulty in converting

[Vinayaka]

Out with the old and in with the new. In stressful times, how many of us return to a comfortable area of mind? Its pretty natural. If we move geographically to a new climate, a new weather, we still use the old as a gauge. How many of us old guys (outside of the US, I guess) still think in miles or Fahrenheit, even though we have been in km, and Celsius now for 25 years. (I don't ... just in lumber still, but that's how its sold)

Sadly, a recovering alcoholic is another example of this. Old habits die hard.

In religion, I see people 'converting' . Hindus become Christians. Nothings become Hindus. "I'm a Buddhist now. I used to be a Catholic."

So the question for discussion is, "How do you know you've really given up the old, and also what strategies have you used to enable the change?"

 

[Me Myself]

Tere is justothing in catholicism for me any more.

I just plain not believe it.

 

[Onkara]

So the question for discussion is, "How do you know you've really given up the old, and also what strategies have you used to enable the change?"

Good question. Perhaps it is never possible to give up a memory.

When the person who has given up something stops looking behind them and starts looking forward, not speaking, acting and rarely thinking of a former life then I think that is good enough. We don't have a choice on memories but we can try not to express them or dwell on them. That I feel is how you know you have given up the old, when we stop talking about what we once were in a personal sense. Replace persistent thoughts and memories with new ones.

 

[Jainarayan]

So the question for discussion is, "How do you know you've really given up the old, and also what strategies have you used to enable the change?"

And a good question it is. Unfortunately I don't have a good answer. At least not a generic answer. If I were forced to relocate for my job (which would be when they sell tickets to Disney On Ice in hell... I move for no job) I don't think I could adapt. If I moved of my own volition, as I want to do and go to Perth Australia (I cannot stand the weather here anymore), I would be more than willing to give up my old life. I think it comes down to whether you want to make the change or not. I left Christianity (Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy) voluntarily because they held nothing for me anymore. If you really want it you set your mind to it. But then, there's nothing to set your mind to, because it's something that comes natural. I think it's personal and subjective. See? I said I didn't have a good answer.

 

[Vinayaka]

Tere is justothing in catholicism for me any more.

I just plain not believe it.

Thank you me myself. And this is the type of answer that lead me to the question in the first place. I've heard people say the exact same thing, then observed actions that would indicate otherwise. I am not suggesting you are one of these people, because i actually don't know you.

In a sense the active thread on Buddhism where someone questioned the sincerity of western adherents is the same idea.

So ... let's explore a bit more by asking some questions.

Have you decided against burial? (I don't know if cremation is even an option in Ecuador.)
When walking past a church or cathedral, do you have even a twinge of, "I want to go in."
Is Sunday a day of rest still?
Is God still a separate being?
Did you bother to watch the papal switch?

These kinds of things ...

But what Onkara said made a lot of sense. We can't give up our memories. But habit patterns associated directly to the old faith ... well?

 

[Vinayaka]

If I were forced to relocate for my job

I had to relocate, and I do think it helped. There just were no Hindus around where I used to live. Cities have much greater variety in faith, and there are less reminders of the past, although I still find a certain comfort in rural surroundings. For a very long time, like about 20 years, in periods of stress, I'd just go for a drive in the country, and actually consciously used the 'old' to find comfort. But a key difference was that I was conscious of it. In my observations, its generally that the people I observe clinging to the past aren't conscious of it. A good example of what I mean is former Christians who 'nest' at the Hindu temple, like it was a tea party in the basement, which isn't, as you know, a Hindu tradition. Nesting is done at home. The temple serves a different purpose, a place to directly commune with Siva or Vishnu or Ganesha.

 

[Jainarayan]

I've noticed the absence of the kaffee-klatching at temple, even after one of the busier times. People take prasad, exchange a smile or three then leave. You are right about the Christian propensity for coffee hours. It is rooted in history but the point is that you have to let it go. Maybe being the social cripple I am, and not one to go grabbing people's hands to shake, it was easy for me to adapt to the Indian way. But no mistake, there is a respectful pleasantry not aloofness. Westerners generally don't understand the concept of personal space as Japanese and Indians do.

 

[Me Myself]

Thank you me myself. And this is the type of answer that lead me to the question in the first place. I've heard people say the exact same thing, then observed actions that would indicate otherwise. I am not suggesting you are one of these people, because i actually don't know you.

In a sense the active thread on Buddhism where someone questioned the sincerity of western adherents is the same idea.

So ... let's explore a bit more by asking some questions.

Have you decided against burial? (I don't know if cremation is even an option in Ecuador.)
When walking past a church or cathedral, do you have even a twinge of, "I want to go in."
Is Sunday a day of rest still?
Is God still a separate being?
Did you bother to watch the papal switch?

These kinds of things ...

But what Onkara said made a lot of sense. We can't give up our memories. But habit patterns associated directly to the old faith ... well?

I feel some affection towards cathoicism. It is very mild but it is there.

I woud refer to be cremated. My family may have the ceremony ey prefer or whatever, I really havent thought about it, I just know I dont want people to go to a tombstone to "visit" me as if I was there.

I do have gone inside cathedrals, but I have a general interest on places of worship regardless of the religion and I am evemoe attracted to non catholic or nochristina places because I am less accustomed to them.

Aout the pope, it is similar. Religious subjects interest me, thats how I am here

I can understand what you say about being unable to know from your position and I am most certainly aware people confuse themselves about the certainty of their position.

What can I say? For me it just disolved. i am way happier with my spirituality than I've ever been without the restrictive and heartless confinements that believing as a catholic would necessitate for me.

I can pray to whoever I want and may do whatever ritual I feel attracted to at the moment.

I find simply nothing to be left of whatever could hold a roof to a belief on a God that is not everything. It simply makes no sense to me.

I didnt really like believing I was God at first. It felt lonely, but with time, I understood it was just attachment and the humm its too hard to explain but lets say "feeling" of "comprehension" about the imposibility of a separate God was too great.

I am a knot in the rope that is God

 

[Nyingjé Tso]

Vanakkam,

Strangely I never felt and never experienced any need or urge to return to "the past". I think it has to do with how I was raised with my family: they were kind of agnostics and never forced me to engage in any religion if it wasn't my choice. Thanks the secularism too, I was never forced by people or by society in general to be a christian or to go to church or mosque.
"There is God, it's sure. When you find a good way to God for you, go ahead, whatever religion you choose we will always accept you" said my mother.

So when I discovered what would be my current religion, it was like a tornado. Sanatana Dharma is enormous and difficult to learn, and I was alone. But since I never had a previous religion in the past, I didn't go back. I couldn't become an atheist since I was convinced God's presence, and I was determined not to seek shelter in a "more easy" religion because it would be for wrong reasons.

I didn't had to give up the old. The "old" was a strange mix of totally isolated paganish practices because I wasn't guided. God came to guide me on a more organized way, I just took the hand and followed him.

It's more difficult when it's cultural. When you're from a country not especially christian, but when christianity in rooted deep in our culture. When you learn from a eastern religion, which is total diferent concept from western ones, habits are hard. At beginning I still had this abrahamic mentality, even without having been christian at all: "Shiva will punish me if I don't do correctly" "Please forgive me"
But with time and teachings, it just goes off easy.

I think this "non return" for the early beginning of my "conversion" (I don't like that word since I didn't feel to convert at anything, it was just normal) helped to advance further into the path, eventually to take a more traditionnalist one without having much problems adapting my mind to it.


Aum Namah Shivaya

 

[Tarheeler]

My answer is along the same lines as Me Myself's: I'm not a Christian because I completely reject the defining tenets of it. But, then again, I don't think I really ever felt at "home" in Christianity; it was my religion because it was what my parents practiced, not because it was what I believed.

 

[Gaura Priya]

Out with the old and in with the new. In stressful times, how many of us return to a comfortable area of mind? Its pretty natural. If we move geographically to a new climate, a new weather, we still use the old as a gauge. How many of us old guys (outside of the US, I guess) still think in miles or Fahrenheit, even though we have been in km, and Celsius now for 25 years. (I don't ... just in lumber still, but that's how its sold)

Sadly, a recovering alcoholic is another example of this. Old habits die hard.

In religion, I see people 'converting' . Hindus become Christians. Nothings become Hindus. "I'm a Buddhist now. I used to be a Catholic."

So the question for discussion is, "How do you know you've really given up the old, and also what strategies have you used to enable the change?"

I sometimes do not know. However, people who have similar experiences of trauma, hurt, and emotional abuse tend to try to get away from things that have formally hurt them.

But I still believe that Krishna loves me, and I know that such a statement would be anathema for many people, if not most. Sue me and send me to hell if it is!

But... when you get issues of self, and certain images, phrases, and people become triggers into negative emotional states, I think it is healthy to let go of that, at least for a bit.

Going to temple hurts a lot. Although many people love to talk to me, many also turn their heads away in shame. What I thought were my friends, my spiritual family, were only there for my service, and not my soul.

My belief is still there, my heart is with Krishna, but my headspace needs peace and solace.

Christianity, specifically cultural Christianity was what I was born and raised into. All of our rituals, celebrations of Holy Days, and the like were in a Catholic context, and the whole family is involved, even if only twice a year or so.

I was born Christian, Baptised and Confirmed. I was reared to go to church every Sunday and to pray regularly. I was comforted by grandparents and family members praying the rosary with fervour over loved ones, sick ones, and everything else. I grew up around images of Santo Niño (murti of the child Jesus), and Mama Mary (the Blessed Virgin Mary), paintings, holy cards, and statues. During special occasions, my uncle or another family member, would lead grace at table to thank God before we ate.

My family knows that we've been Christian for about three or four generations now, some in different denominations, but nevertheless the same Jesus-centered religion.

And imagine that one day their child would leave the Christian faith around youth to become a Hindu. They completely hated it, and still disliked it for a long time. They felt that I was being pulled away from our family's values and culture, and no matter what I did or who I was, they cared that I share Christian values and culture with them. My father would tell me, "Be whoever you are, whatever you want to do, just stay Christian."

Whatever imperfections my family has, they are still decent people. And while I am suffering the fruits of my karma in life, they are there.

I still love the Eucharist (think Christian symbolic tantrism with bread and wine). I still remember my Rosary prayers (like japa). I still have some statues and pictures of the Holy Family of Jesus: Mary, Joseph, and Jesus (just like having murtis). And I like some passages of the Bible.

The temple didn't help me when I had problems, but would look away from me as a shamed creature before their eyes.

One day, I walked into an old friend of mine from the temple who left brahmacharya (changed from a saffron dhoti to a white one) and he told me that if there are trigger issues and its preventing you from being comfortable, it's better to go where there is comfort. He himself left brahmacharya because he wanted to go back to a good job, and that he wanted the freedom to choose marital life as well.

And so, here I am, confused as hell, lol. One thing for sure, Srila Prabhupada was very merciful in regards to faith. He saw Vaishnavism in other religions as well, such as Christianity and Islam, and that Vishnu was the self-same Jehovah and Allah, but in different moods (rasa). He didn't want people to change their religions if they did not want to, but rather to chant, call upon, or sing the names of God, whatever their tradition.

People change their religions all the time, Srila Prabhupada noted, but chanting the names of the Lord, of which He has thousands and thousands of names, is the ultimate religion in this age. He merely wanted God's Names to be chanted, no matter what cultural tradition, and to follow basic principles such as vegetarianism.

So I have no idea where I am going at the moment. I just had an urge to get away, crave for peace of mind, and remain strong in regular practice. Both Vaishnavism and other religions emphasise sangha, or association with like-minded devotees. But as long as I have God in my heart, and praise His Names, and stay vegetarian, offering my food in God's Name, I do not think it should be too much of a problem.

 

[Vinayaka]

GP, my observations were more about the individual who makes the bold proclamation, "I'm a _____" but acts differently based on subconscious programming, but just can't see it. I just feel like saying, "Hang on there a minute."

You're very different in this regard, because you recognise and accept the mix, have a look at it, and can admit it. When you express 'confusion' you laugh at yourself, which in and of itself is healthy.

I just don't think it's healthy to live in denial. But then one of my my personal sadhanas is to explore my own subconscious, find the spots that are contradictory to the path, and then resolve them. If there are repressions, they need to come out, not as continued reaction, but to be released in the light of understanding. In order to realise the Self, all karmas must be resolved. That's the tradition we follow.

 

[Gaura Priya]

Sorry prabhu; I've been in thinking mode for a few weeks now.

I think people should try to immerse themselves in whatever they're claiming... such as saying "I am Hindu!" but not actually knowing what going to temple is like, immersing one's self in the Scriptures, doing puja, japa, singing kirtans or bhajans, reciting shlokas, eating Indian food, having some ishta-deva, etc.

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

Over the years, Catholisism simply fell away in that nothing I did in that tradition made me feel close to God. Sometimes it even made me fearful! After finally admitting that Christianity wasn't my path, I still had to got to church with family to put on a show, but whenever I walked inside I felt a terrible guilt. I was not being genuine and I felt uncomfortable.

Now that I've adopted Hinduism but am married to a Catholic I still on the very rare occasions (we're talking 1-2 times a year) attend church with my Husband. I don't participate in the rituals, but I go because he and I are a family and there is no place he would go that I would not follow (and vice versa). He has come to Temple with me and we both accept that we each have a personal relationship and journey to go on with God in a way that feels right for us.

The strange thing is now that I have found a 'home' in Hinduism, churches no longer frighten me or make me feel uncomfortable. I chalk it up to feeling secure in my faith. Maybe now it's just a building to me, not a place of union with the Divine.

I think the last link to my old religious life is my need to have my family accept me/ a fear that my family will reject me once they know of my new faith. This fear has to be released in order for me to feel like I'm free of my Christian past entirely. These things come in time though. It's never been a race for me.

Shanti