Digambaras in Northern Climates?

[Benst]

This might sound like a silly question, so do excuse me if it is. I studied Jainism briefly in Uni, and was lucky to have quite a few Jain friends. What struck me was that they were all of them Shwetambara, I've never met a Digambara in Canada here. I always found this interesting, but then ofcourseI realize that the few people I met were not fully representative of Jains in Toronto!

I've always been curious though, as a mostly Indian religion with India's warm climate, how has moves north affected the Digambaras? What I mean is, with other Indian based religions like Sikhism, because of the colder climate... certain traditions needed to change to be more comfortable (In the case of Sikhism, chairs were added to Gurdwaras for the comfort of older individuals who, in a colder climate, suffer). Oweing that the cliche image of a Digambara ascetic is to be skyclad, and one of the principle philosophical arguments for being skyclad is to eliminate attachment... does that mean that Digambara ascetics don't move to northern countries like Canada or the UK because the climate is so inhospitable? If they do, I'm kind of fascinated to know what the compromise is.

Also, I find Jainism absolutely intriguing.

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

This might sound like a silly question, so do excuse me if it is. I studied Jainism briefly in Uni, and was lucky to have quite a few Jain friends. What struck me was that they were all of them Shwetambara, I've never met a Digambara in Canada here. I always found this interesting, but then ofcourseI realize that the few people I met were not fully representative of Jains in Toronto!

I've always been curious though, as a mostly Indian religion with India's warm climate, how has moves north affected the Digambaras? What I mean is, with other Indian based religions like Sikhism, because of the colder climate... certain traditions needed to change to be more comfortable (In the case of Sikhism, chairs were added to Gurdwaras for the comfort of older individuals who, in a colder climate, suffer). Oweing that the cliche image of a Digambara ascetic is to be skyclad, and one of the principle philosophical arguments for being skyclad is to eliminate attachment... does that mean that Digambara ascetics don't move to northern countries like Canada or the UK because the climate is so inhospitable? If they do, I'm kind of fascinated to know what the compromise is.

Also, I find Jainism absolutely intriguing.

If digambara jaina muni-s did move to Britain or Canada and still wanted to abide by all anuvrata-s, then I presume that they might even be arrested for public indecency, or they might be hit by a woman (or in the case of a sAdhvI, perhaps hit by a man) for exposing their private parts, like what happened to gosAla makkhaliputta in magadha. I doubt that very strict digambara-s would live in the West, especially considering the views of sexuality and/or public nakedness in the west; in fact, even during British rule in India, digambara jaina-s were prohibited from entering cities. Nowadays, there are less prohibitions on entering cities without clothing, in part because of the work of people like vidyAsAgarAchArya and other digambara jaina-s. shAntisAgar was probably the most prominent in demanding rights from the British, who, like the Muslims before them, often harassed bhikShuka digambara jaina-s, be they actually fully "sky-clad" or even ailaka (wearing one garment).

Edit: BTW, I also find jaina dharma somewhat interesting; in many ways, it takes things a step further than bauddha dharma or vaidika dharma. Whereas the upaniShad-s and the tipiTaka tell how to reach that goal of vairAgyam or nirvANam, the jaina texts seem to be stating that one should already engage in actions which reflect a dispassion towards material desires; as the tattvarthasUtram states, tannisargAdadhigamAdvA, or that non-attachment (nisargAt) is in itself the proper conduct. From this, we can assume that aparigrahaH is (from a jaina perspective) not a goal, but a practice. That's why I assume that most of the jaina yAma-s [by that, I'm talking about not just the pa~nchamahAvratAni, but the vrata-s in general] are akin to those of sa~NnyAsI-s. I personally would never be a jaina, mainly because I'm bhakti-centric, and syAdvAda runs contrary to that; in addition, I'm not comfortable being nude in public (so I definitely wouldn't want to be a digambara jaina) and I feel that wearing a mukhakosa/muhapatti solely to prevent bugs from entering (like what some shvetAmbara jaina-s do) is like ahiMsA taken to an extreme.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I admire Mahavira and Jainism for their radicalism (I am also a radical of sorts). Being a digambara in Canada would be extremely difficult but one does not know about sadhus. Some may develop a real thick skin (Don't the Buddhist have a yoga for generating body heat?). The first thing that they do on being ordained is to pull out their hair by hand. Both, men and women.

 

[Vinayaka]

This might sound like a silly question, so do excuse me if it is. I studied Jainism briefly in Uni, and was lucky to have quite a few Jain friends. What struck me was that they were all of them Shwetambara, I've never met a Digambara in Canada here. I always found this interesting, but then ofcourseI realize that the few people I met were not fully representative of Jains in Toronto!

I've always been curious though, as a mostly Indian religion with India's warm climate, how has moves north affected the Digambaras? What I mean is, with other Indian based religions like Sikhism, because of the colder climate... certain traditions needed to change to be more comfortable (In the case of Sikhism, chairs were added to Gurdwaras for the comfort of older individuals who, in a colder climate, suffer). Oweing that the cliche image of a Digambara ascetic is to be skyclad, and one of the principle philosophical arguments for being skyclad is to eliminate attachment... does that mean that Digambara ascetics don't move to northern countries like Canada or the UK because the climate is so inhospitable? If they do, I'm kind of fascinated to know what the compromise is.

Also, I find Jainism absolutely intriguing.

A more common factor that affects us all is sunrise/sunset times, if you take arising at sunrise literally. The time of day in the puja shifts with the seasons, if one adheres to a strict time like 7Am.

No Digambara Jain in their right mind would move to Canada.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. does that mean that Digambara ascetics don't move to northern countries like Canada or the UK because the climate is so inhospitable? If they do, I'm kind of fascinated to know what the compromise is.

First thing, Indian religions are not intrinsically evangelists. Second, strict Digambara Jain monks may have problems with air or road transport (killing organism unintentionally), that is why they walk and brush the path before treading on it (if they feel that they might be endangering insects). They are radically non-violent, a very serious point with them, sort of defining their religion. Mahavira did not stop even the children who threw stones at him and were trying to put nails in his ear making him bleed. One of their illustrious personages, Bahubali, left the kingdom for a usurper to avoid killing, though he could easily have won against him. Then Digambaras form a very small portion of the Jain laity. From Adherents.com:

Jainism: Major Branches of Jainism (very rough estimates)
Branch Number of Adherents
Svetambara 4,000,000
Sthanakavasis 750,000
Digambaras 155,000

 

[Benst]

Thankyou so much all for your replies, very interesting!

I admire Mahavira and Jainism for their radicalism (I am also a radical of sorts). Being a digambara in Canada would be extremely difficult but one does not know about sadhus. Some may develop a real thick skin (Don't the Buddhist have a yoga for generating body heat?). The first thing that they do on being ordained is to pull out their hair by hand. Both, men and women.

I wasn't sure you see, but that's what I was thinking, I wondered perhaps there may have been a compromise found or thought of, but I was doubtful. The climate is very cold, definitly, and Buddhist monks of various schools have found compromises that allow for thicker clothing, or undergarments. That being said, in the southern reaches of North America, it remains quite warm through out the year and there are nudist colonies. BUT, it would be getting there that would be the issue. I just didn't know if there was or not. The debates that eventually lead to the forming of the Shwetembaras are very interesting, but hinges on attachment on clothing (the Shwetambaras not placing the same importance on total nudity.)

A more common factor that affects us all is sunrise/sunset times, if you take arising at sunrise literally. The time of day in the puja shifts with the seasons, if one adheres to a strict time like 7Am.

No Digambara Jain in their right mind would move to Canada.

Haha I see, that makes sense.

If digambara jaina muni-s did move to Britain or Canada and still wanted to abide by all anuvrata-s, then I presume that they might even be arrested for public indecency, or they might be hit by a woman (or in the case of a sAdhvI, perhaps hit by a man) for exposing their private parts, like what happened to gosAla makkhaliputta in magadha. I doubt that very strict digambara-s would live in the West, especially considering the views of sexuality and/or public nakedness in the west; in fact, even during British rule in India, digambara jaina-s were prohibited from entering cities. Nowadays, there are less prohibitions on entering cities without clothing, in part because of the work of people like vidyAsAgarAchArya and other digambara jaina-s. shAntisAgar was probably the most prominent in demanding rights from the British, who, like the Muslims before them, often harassed bhikShuka digambara jaina-s, be they actually fully "sky-clad" or even ailaka (wearing one garment).

Edit: BTW, I also find jaina dharma somewhat interesting; in many ways, it takes things a step further than bauddha dharma or vaidika dharma. Whereas the upaniShad-s and the tipiTaka tell how to reach that goal of vairAgyam or nirvANam, the jaina texts seem to be stating that one should already engage in actions which reflect a dispassion towards material desires; as the tattvarthasUtram states, tannisargAdadhigamAdvA, or that non-attachment (nisargAt) is in itself the proper conduct. From this, we can assume that aparigrahaH is (from a jaina perspective) not a goal, but a practice. That's why I assume that most of the jaina yAma-s [by that, I'm talking about not just the pa~nchamahAvratAni, but the vrata-s in general] are akin to those of sa~NnyAsI-s. I personally would never be a jaina, mainly because I'm bhakti-centric, and syAdvAda runs contrary to that; in addition, I'm not comfortable being nude in public (so I definitely wouldn't want to be a digambara jaina) and I feel that wearing a mukhakosa/muhapatti solely to prevent bugs from entering (like what some shvetAmbara jaina-s do) is like ahiMsA taken to an extreme.

I agree with you that it's fascinating. Although what I find interestesting is that the Jainas emerged out of the same era that the Upanishads, Buddhists and a few now extinct ascetic schools emerged out of. I should probably specify though, the Digamabara lay community don't go nude, only their ascetics do... but since the lay community gains merit by supporting monks, I wondered if it was difficult for Digambara laymen outside of India. Then again, as Aupmanyav shows the population is so much smaller than Shwetambara. You're right though, the Jains do place a great importance on orthaprax rather than orthodox, but that is true of Schools in Hinduism as well. I would argue that although ahimsa is the defining principle of Jainism, it is still akin to Hinduism which places emphasis on correct recitation of japa, performance of puja, and other practices.

First thing, Indian religions are not intrinsically evangelists.

I would disagree with that, I agree for the most part but there is evangelism by some major branches of Vaishnavism, and Buddhism. But you are right, dharmic traditions in general don't lend themselves to spreading their faiths.

Second, strict Digambara Jain monks may have problems with air or road transport (killing organism unintentionally), that is why they walk and brush the path before treading on it (if they feel that they might be endangering insects). They are radically non-violent, a very serious point with them, sort of defining their religion. Mahavira did not stop even the children who threw stones at him and were trying to put nails in his ear making him bleed. One of their illustrious personages, Bahubali, left the kingdom for a usurper to avoid killing, though he could easily have won against him. Then Digambaras form a very small portion of the Jain laity. From Adherents.com:

Jainism: Major Branches of Jainism (very rough estimates)
Branch Number of Adherents
Svetambara 4,000,000
Sthanakavasis 750,000
Digambaras 155,000

Now I didn't know how extreme the Digambaras took ahimsa. I know with monks from the other schools, they can only drink water that has been purified. ofcourse, they don't do the purifying, the laymen will boil the water, wrack up any karmic debt from killing the creatures in the water, but by giving the water to the monk they gain positive merit cancelling out the negetive they just incurred.

So it seems the consensus generally is that the Digambara ascetic lifestyle just doesn't lend it's self to travelling outside, or very far. Perhaps this also helps to explain why the Digambara community is so much smaller? Jains are quite powerful when it comes to trade, so it didn't make sense to me whey there were only Shwetambaras here in North America (well, of those whom I had met!)

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Thankyou so much a
I agree with you that it's fascinating. Although what I find interestesting is that the Jainas emerged out of the same era that the Upanishads, Buddhists and a few now extinct ascetic schools emerged out of.

I am of the view jaina dharma predates the AjIvaka-s and bauddha-s by at least 300 years, if not more. The very early tIrtha~Nkara-s, if they existed at all, likely didn't teach the same principles of present day jaina dharma; however, pAshvanAtha, who probably dates to around the time the bR^ihadAraNyakopaniShad was composed (well before people like gosAla, shAkyamuni buddha, or IshvarakR^iShNa existed), was generally the founder of the modern principles of jaina dharma; people like keshin and mahAvIra merely revived the principles which had already existed. This view that jainadharma is as recent as bauddhadharma is merely a baseless Indological speculation; the jaina-s were the direct continuation of the earlier vrAtya-s in magadha which are spoken of in the veda-s and, by and large, the first major shramaNa group. vardhamAna mahAvIra, from what we know of him, never changed his views, unlike the buddha, who clearly changed his views after attaining nirvANam. The former could not be seen as a founder; to the contrary, he acknowledged himself as being a mere reviver of jaina dharma. In the debate between him and keshin over the whole ailaka-nagna issue, mahAvIra acknowledges himself as supporting the view of the early tIrtha~Nkara-s for complete nakedness as ideal, whereas keshin stated that he was in the paramparA of pArshva and that wearing a single cloth was ideal. Heck, even virulent anti-Indians like Doniger and Thapar acknowledge pArshva as the founder of jaina dharma and not mahAvIra.

I should probably specify though, the Digamabara lay community don't go nude, only their ascetics do... but since the lay community gains merit by supporting monks, I wondered if it was difficult for Digambara laymen outside of India.

Did you read what I wrote in my first sentence?

If digambara jaina muni-s did move to Britain or Canada and still wanted to abide by all anuvrata-s, then I presume that they might even be arrested for public indecency, or they might be hit by a woman (or in the case of a sAdhvI, perhaps hit by a man) for exposing their private parts, like what happened to gosAla makkhaliputta in magadha.

Clearly, any digambara jaina who abides by the anuvrata-s (minor vows) is bound to either be naked, or wearing a single piece of cloth, not just muni-s or sAdhvI-s. This is as per the bandhanAnuyogAdhyAya.

Then again, as Aupmanyav shows the population is so much smaller than Shwetambara.

Obviously, although jaina-s in general are considerably non-violent, not just digambara jaina-s.

You're right though, the Jains do place a great importance on orthaprax rather than orthodox, but that is true of Schools in Hinduism as well.

Are you sure you're understanding what I said here? I wasn't speaking of ritual practice, I was contrasting their shAstra-s and Agama-s with those of other traditions. Whereas the upaniShads and the bauddha texts speak of how to attain mokSha/nirvANam via kaivalyam, the jaina texts are more focused on putting into play the aspects of nirvANam such as aparigrahaH.

I would argue that although ahimsa is the defining principle of Jainism, it is still akin to Hinduism which places emphasis on correct recitation of japa, performance of puja, and other practices.

There is no Hindu text which places emphasis on "correct recitation of japa," because you can't recite japa; japa is, in itself, the repetitive recitation of certain akShara-s. That which is usually being recited is called a mantram (om namaH shivAya is an example). In addition, japa is for one's own sAdhana and the goal of it is not ritualistic, it helps to foster bhakti and, for others, avadhAna. This is unlike formal yagya-s following the vedANga-s and brAhmaNa-s, which ensure sAlokyamukti if proper conventions are followed. In regard to the pUjA, most "lay" bhakta-s do not place emphasis on the proper performance of pUjA, only the pujArI-s do. In fact, most individuals when setting up shrines do not do everything in accordance with their respective Agama-s; in fact, it's difficult to do some of the practices within one's own home. From a strictly pA~ncharAtrika perspective, when an AratI is conducted, chandana and manjala is placed in pAdyapAtram (called vattil in tamizh) and is used to wash the feet (pAdau) of the mUrti/archAvigraham (of nArAyaNa) kind of like in an abhiShekam, following which the garbhagR^iha is closed. Most people I know don't have a golden pAtra, lol. Also, it's probably very difficult to do the prANapratiShThAna of a mUrti outside of a mandir.

 

[Poeticus]

I would disagree with that, I agree for the most part but there is evangelism by some major branches of Vaishnavism, and Buddhism. But you are right, dharmic traditions in general don't lend themselves to spreading their faiths.

The only "evangelical" branch of vaiṣṇavism I can think
of would be gauḍīya vaiṣṇava; and, I would hardly refer
to that saṃpradāya as "major". I could be wrong, however --
it may be one of the most important vaiṣṇava branches.​

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

The only "evangelical" branch of vaiśṇavism I can think
of would be gauḍīya vaiśṇavism; and, I would hardly refer
to that saṃpradāya as "major". I could be wrong, however --
it may be one of the most important vaiśṇava branches.​

I agree, although it should be written vaiShNavism (or vaiṣṇavism in IAST), and not as vaishNavism, since vaiShNava comes from viShNu (with a ष&#2381 and not vishNu (with a श&#2381 [it ***ses you off when I proofread, so I'm gonna keep doing it until you can deal with it]. Also, the "evangelism" is not the same as that of Christians and Muslims; whereas the latter condemn disbelievers to hell, the "evangelism" by ISKCONites (who technically diverged from gauDiya beliefs, as per prabhupAda himself) is usually directed at other Hindu-s, like "refuting advaita" or what not or occasionally stalking shiva mandiram-s to hand out "BG as it is" or other BBC publications. They used to be very common in airports, or occasionally walked from door to door like JW-s do, but they have since been less focused on spreading their form of bhAgavatadharma. Nowadays, it's usually the neo-advaitin-s from the vedAnta society and such which are focused on preaching to Westerners and such.

 

[Poeticus]

I agree, although it should be written vaiShNavism (or vaiṣṇavism in IAST), and not as vaishNavism, since vaiShNava comes from viShNu (with a ष&#2381 and not vishNu (with a श&#2381 [it ***ses you off when I proofread, so I'm gonna keep doing it until you can deal with it]. Also, the "evangelism" is not the same as that of Christians and Muslims; whereas the latter condemn disbelievers to hell, the "evangelism" by ISKCONites (who technically diverged from gauDiya beliefs, as per prabhupAda himself) is usually directed at other Hindu-s, like "refuting advaita" or what not or occasionally stalking shiva mandiram-s to hand out "BG as it is" or other BBC publications. They used to be very common in airports, or occasionally walked from door to door like JW-s do, but they have since been less focused on spreading their form of bhAgavatadharma. Nowadays, it's usually the neo-advaitin-s from the vedAnta society and such which are focused on preaching to Westerners and such.

It's good you brought that to my attention - and this time
I appreciate it! The last thing I want to do is misspell the
name of a śrī deva. Definitely embarrassing! Am humbled. ​

 

[Poeticus]

Namaste,

Are there any self-identified
Jaina-s here on RF?
​

 

[Benst]

The only "evangelical" branch of vaiṣṇavism I can think
of would be gauḍīya vaiṣṇava; and, I would hardly refer
to that saṃpradāya as "major". I could be wrong, however --
it may be one of the most important vaiṣṇava branches.​

Quite right in pointing that out to me, I clumsily wrote my reply out before. Gaudiya Vaishnavism, specifically ISKON is what I was thinking of...I meant to also put other groups who are, if not proselatyzing, atleast disseminating forms of Hinduism. The various Western Gurus like Ram Dass (student of Neem Karoli Baba), followers of Vivekenanda, followers of Sathya Sai Baba, of Sri Sri Ravi Shankar..and, although I'm not sure if I should add him Osho. As well as others.

Namaste,

Are there any self-identified
Jaina-s here on RF?
​

I'm wondering this myself, as much as it's interesting to see a Hindu perspective on Jainism, I'd be interested to hear from someone in the community.

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

It's good you brought that to my attention - and this time
I appreciate it! The last thing I want to do is misspell the
name of a śrī deva. Definitely embarrassing! Am humbled. ​

It's okay, I also made a mistake in the response to you. I was on my iPhone when replying and accidentally wrote BBC rather than BBA (bhaktivedAnta book association) or BBT (bhaktivedAnta book trust) because it "spell-corrected" me, and I didn't notice the change, lol.

The various Western Gurus like Ram Dass (student of Neem Karoli Baba), followers of Vivekenanda, followers of Sathya Sai Baba, of Sri Sri Ravi Shankar..and, although I'm not sure if I should add him Osho. As well as others.

Wait, what? Osho wasn't a Hindu, he was an anti-theist fraudster who considered all other religions except his own movement to be cults, advocated socialist and anarchist views, planned bioterror attacks with his accomplice Anand shIlA, etc....oops, I wasn't supposed to say that. :foot:
Other than that, I agree with your post.

 

[Vinayaka]

Huge difference between making information available versus aggressive proseletysing. But even for ISKCON, seems those days are over.

 

[Aupmanyav]

A more common factor that affects us all is sunrise/sunset times, if you take arising at sunrise literally. The time of day in the puja shifts with the seasons, if one adheres to a strict time like 7 am.

Change in sun-rise time is not a problem. It happens in Delhi also, of course, not to the extent of climes further North. But if a devout gets up at 4 am in the morning in summer, he/she gets up at 4 am in winter also. My wife gets up at 6 am, be it winter or summer, alas, she is not well today.

I know with monks from the other schools, they can only drink water that has been purified.

Jains are quite powerful when it comes to trade, so it didn't make sense to me whey there were only Shwetambaras here in North America (well, of those whom I had met!)

Jain monks cannot boil water for fear of killing germs. They have the option of only straining water through cloth.

The Digambara jain laity are just as quick on the make as Swetambaras. There is no qualitative difference. Only that they are fewer in numbers.

 

[Aupmanyav]

This view that jainadharma is as recent as bauddhadharma is merely a baseless Indological speculation; ..

I have not read any Indologist writing that. Mahavira surely predated Buddha - 'niggantha natiputta' (Nirgrantha Gnatiputra - without book, son of knowledge), as a Jain monk was probably known to Buddha. Both Mahavira and Buddha were preceded by earlier thinkers in the line (the historical Buddhas, Kassapa in case of Buddhists), just as Sankara was preceded by Vedic and Upanishadic 'advaita' thinking.

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

I have not read any Indologist writing that. Mahavira surely predated Buddha - 'niggantha natiputta' (Nirgrantha Gnatiputra - without book, son of knowledge), as a Jain monk was probably known to Buddha. Both Mahavira and Buddha were preceded by earlier thinkers in the line (the historical Buddhas, Kassapa in case of Buddhists), just as Sankara was preceded by Vedic and Upanishadic 'advaita' thinking.

Well, kassapa (presuming you're speaking of kassapa buddha and not mahAkassapa [who was a disciple of shAkyamuni buddha, just like Ananda]) likely never existed (no one lives to the age of 40,000 years, lol); the first historical buddha was gautama buddha.

 

[Aupmanyav]

That is not what Buddhist are supposed to believe. What is wrong with a person living for 40,000 years? Don't we have our seven immortals? This is religion and not science.

 

[Vinayaka]

Change in sun-rise time is not a problem.

Delhi is 28 N, and Edmonton is 54 N. The difference here between winter and summer sunrise times is over 3 hours. Double that for daylight hours. So yes it impacts us.

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

That is not what Buddhist are supposed to believe. What is wrong with a person living for 40,000 years? Don't we have our seven immortals? This is religion and not science.

You're missing the point, I'm talking about from a strictly historical perspective, in which case it's unlikely that he lived 40,000 years; the same applies for the chiranjIvI-s, sure.