Discourse On The Trinity Mystery With Three Questions:

[jonny]

Do you mean the original article, or Michel's comment?

It was from a quote in Michael's article.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

"On this forum"? I'd really rather you didn't single out RF.

 

[iris89]

hi FeathersinHair

Your comment not understood.

"On this forum"? I'd really rather you didn't single out RF.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[Feathers in Hair]

I'm sorry, Iris. I was referring to you having written "on this forum", as opposed to "on most forums" or something that didn't single out RF. You probably didn't mean to.

I will withdraw again from this thread, and hope that anyone who feels that their religion or belief system is being maligned will know they can contact the forum moderators and administrators at any time.

 

[iris89]

Hi FeathersinHair

Actually people do not differ that greatly between Religious Forums and many other forums so the statement would be appropriate on most forms. I shall specify Religious forums if you desire in the future.

Now what did you thing with regard to my biblical comments?

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Hello, Iris.

It is not my place to discuss what I think about your biblical comments, since I am not a Christian and the Bible is not my holy text. Thank you for asking, though!

 

[iris89]

Hi FeathersinHair

Your are welcome. I would be willing to assist you if you would ever desire to become a true Christian.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Thank you, Iris.

 

[searcher63]

Discourse On The Trinity Mystery With Three Questions:

Many groups and denominations often claim hat trinity myth is a big mystery.

With their claim of it being a mystery, it is, the Trinity is a mystery just like all frauds worked against mankind. It is nothing but the deceitful product of the human mind and absolutely finds not support in reality. It was adopted because of the driving force of two Roman Empire Emperors over two great church councils of an apostate church, the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. under the absolute control of Emperor Constantine, a pagan Emperor who worshipped a sun God, and the Council of Constantinople of 381 A.D., under the control of Emperor Theodosius. In other words this fraud was the political product of two Roman Empire Emperors who knew little about Christianity and cared less. Their objective was not to keep the faith pure, but to do what ever was necessary to obtain religious unity within the empire to strengthen it. "A Short History of Christian Doctrine," states, "Constantine had basically no understanding whatsoever of the questions that were being asked in Greek theology." However, both emperors, Constantine and Theodosius, understood very well that the religious division of the empire at that time was a very real threat to the empire (Roman) and they wanted to solidify their domain.

Of this so called mystery the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, volume 4 [From page 3012-3014], states,

"The term 'Trinity' is not a Biblical term and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence. A doctrine so defined can be spoken of as a Biblical doctrine only on the principle that the sense of Scripture is Scripture. And the definition of a Biblical doctrine in such un-Biblical language can be justified only on the principle that it is better to preserve the truth of Scripture than the words of Scripture.

"...the doctrine of the Trinity is given to us in Scripture, not in formulated doctrine, but in fragmentary allusions.

"The doctrine of the Trinity is purely a revealed doctrine. That is to say, it embodies a truth which has never been discovered, and is indiscoverable, by natural reason.

"Triads of divinities, no doubt, occur in nearly all polytheistic religions, formed under very various influences. Sometimes, as in the Egyptian triad of Osiris, Isis and Horus, it is the analogy of the human family with its father, mother and son which lies at their basis. Sometimes they are the effect of mere syncretism, three deities worshipped in different localities being brought together in the common worship of all.

"Sometimes they are the result apparently of nothing more than odd human tendency to think in threes, which has given the number three wide-spread standing as a sacred number.

"It should be needless to say that none of these triads has the slightest resemblance to the Christian doctrine of the Trinity.

"As the doctrine of the Trinity is indiscoverable by reason, so it is incapable of proof from reason. There are no analogies to it in Nature, not even in the spiritual nature of man, who is made in the image of God. In His Trinitarian mode of being, God is unique; and, as there is nothing in the universe like Him in this respect, so there is nothing which can help us to comprehend Him. Many attempts have, nevertheless, been made to construct a rational proof of the Trinity of the Godhead.

"Certainly we cannot speak broadly of the revelation of the doctrine of the Trinity in the Old Testament. It is a plain matter of fact that none who have depended on the revelation embodied in the Old Testament alone have ever attained to the doctrine of the Trinity.

"It would seem clear that we must recognize in the Old Testament doctrine of the relation of God to His revelation by the creative Word and the Spirit, at least the germ of the distinctions in the Godhead afterward fully made known in the Christian revelation."

NOW QUESTION TIME FOR THOSE NOT UNDERSTANDING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MYTHS AND REALITY:

(1-question) Now a question for you, Matthew says of the temptation of Jesus (Jeshua or YHWH saves), "Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him." (Matthew 4:1-11, Authorized King James Bible, AV).

This was clearly a test of loyalty, would Jesus (Jeshua or YHWH) keep his loyalty to Almighty God (YHWH) or not. However, if he were God as per the Trinity doctrine, how could God rebel against himself and be disloyal to himself? [Please explain]

2-question) Let's assume for a moment that Jesus were part of a Godhead, i.e., a Trinity, the ransom price would have been infinitely higher than what God's (YHWH's) own Law required per "And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." (Exodus 21:23-25 AV) and "And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; 20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again. 21 And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death." (Leviticus 24:19-21, AV).

Remember it was only a perfect human, Adam, who sinned in Eden, not God. Thus the ransom, to be equivalent or in line with God's (YHWH's) justice, had to be strictly an equivalent, i.e., a perfect human, "the last Adam." Therefore, when God sent Jesus to earth as the ransom, he made Jesus to be what would equate or satisfy justice, not an incarnation, nor a god-man, but a perfect man, " But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." (Hebrews 2:9 AV). How could any part of an almighty Godhead (Trinity) of Father (YHWH) , Son (Jesus), or holy spirit ever be lower than angels? [Please explain]

3-question) Supporters of the Trinity claim that in the case of Jesus, "only-begotten" is different from the dictionary definition of "begetting," that is "to procreate as the father," [Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary]. They claim that in Jesus case it means "a sort of only son relationship without the begetting; however, "Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words." Now does that sound logical to you? Can a man father a son without begetting him? [Please explain]

For more information go to my following very long articles on this subject and really learn the facts:

Documentary on the Book of John Being Anti-Trinitarian-In Multiple Parts:

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=97

and;

Trinity = Absurd to the Extreme:

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=61

and;

Colossians 2:8-12 & John 1:1 - Learn The Facts

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=93

and;

Scourge of Christendom, The Pagan Trinity:

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=58



Your Friend in Christ Iris89

IRIS: That was incredible! There are numerous other passages that beg an answer from Trinitarians. One of my favorites: (paraphrased, since I dont have a bible in front of me.) "....After all things have been subjected unto GOD, Christ then subjects himself unto GOD that thus All Things may be subject to the almighty."
Or:
" No one knows the day or the hour ( of the End) Not the Angels, Nor the Christ, Only the Almighty." Ever try and keep a secret from yourself??? its tough!

 

[john63]

Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our Gods (plural) is Jehovah a unity."


Genesis 1:26, 27 "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness ... So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him."


Jude 1:20, 21 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

What do you mean there is no reference to the trinity in the Bible? These are just 3 of hundreds of verses.

 

[iris89]

Hi Searcher63

Thanks for the complement.

To do in-depth research on the Trinity, go to:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/388928

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hi John63

Those scriptures you quoted:

Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our Gods (plural) is Jehovah a unity."


Genesis 1:26, 27 "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness ... So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him."


Jude 1:20, 21 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Have nothing to do with a trinity, so get real.

Go read the book by Dr. Anthony Buzzard,

The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound
by Anthony F. Buzzard and Charles F. Hunting
Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[john63]

Hi John63

Those scriptures you quoted:

Have nothing to do with a trinity, so get real.

Well, your a warm and fuzzy character. And an ordained Jehovah's Witness? You expend an aweful lot of time and effort trying to tear down one of the basic tenets of Christianity, then you end every post with "In Christ". (Except for your response to me). Excuse me Mrs. 89 for having faith.

 

[john63]

Hi FeathersinHair

Your are welcome. I would be willing to assist you if you would ever desire to become a true Christian.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

Please, Please Mr 89, tell me what your idea of a true Christian is.

 

[searcher63]

Hi jonny & michel

I am glad that you both found it interesting. To let you both know, I am an independent Bible researcher that tells it like it is, i.e., only the truth. Why? I feel all untruths must be exposed and all should get with Titus 2:1, "But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: " (Authorized King James Bible; AV). Too many are not believing sound doctrine and I have taken it as my task in serving my leader and savior, Jesus (Yeshua) Christ to assist all in knowing the truth and complying with John 17:19, "And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth." (AV). One can not really sanctify himself/herself through the truth if they do not know it, and it is my job as an Ordained Minister of the Gospel of Christ to assist all that want to know it, to know it.

For more on the subject of the Trinity, go to:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/388928

Also, please be so kind as to let me know how you benefit from what you learn there, I am thanking you in advance.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

Iris:
I appreciate the facts that you bring out in exposing these false doctrins. How a person responds when faced with the truth tells wether or not they have a right heart condition.
I also appreciate the kind , tactful way in your approach.You do not beat people over the head , but simply present facts in a kindly manner!
:bounce

 

[john63]

Iris:
I appreciate the facts that you bring out in exposing these false doctrins. How a person responds when faced with the truth tells wether or not they have a right heart condition.
I also appreciate the kind , tactful way in your approach. You do not beat people over the head , but simply present facts in a kindly manner!
:bounce

Ummm..can I refer you to her response to me where she tells me to "get real". All I did was quote some scripture. But I wouldn't expect much more from a Jehovah's Witness so it doesn't surprise me.

 

[john63]

Hi jonny & michel

I am glad that you both found it interesting. To let you both know, I am an independent Bible researcher that tells it like it is, i.e., only the truth. Why? I feel all untruths must be exposed and all should get with Titus 2:1, "But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: " (Authorized King James Bible; AV). Too many are not believing sound doctrine and I have taken it as my task in serving my leader and savior, Jesus (Yeshua) Christ to assist all in knowing the truth and complying with John 17:19, "And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth." (AV). One can not really sanctify himself/herself through the truth if they do not know it, and it is my job as an Ordained Minister of the Gospel of Christ to assist all that want to know it, to know it.

For more on the subject of the Trinity, go to:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/388928

Also, please be so kind as to let me know how you benefit from what you learn there, I am thanking you in advance.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

Proselytizing, Proselytizing, Proselytizing!!!!

 

[john63]

Hi jonny & michel

I am glad that you both found it interesting. To let you both know, I am an independent Bible researcher that tells it like it is, i.e., only the truth. Why? I feel all untruths must be exposed and all should get with Titus 2:1, "But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: " (Authorized King James Bible; AV). Too many are not believing sound doctrine and I have taken it as my task in serving my leader and savior, Jesus (Yeshua) Christ to assist all in knowing the truth and complying with John 17:19, "And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth." (AV). One can not really sanctify himself/herself through the truth if they do not know it, and it is my job as an Ordained Minister of the Gospel of Christ to assist all that want to know it, to know it.

For more on the subject of the Trinity, go to:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/388928

Also, please be so kind as to let me know how you benefit from what you learn there, I am thanking you in advance.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

And you're convinced that these verses are referring to your doctrine, or more specifically jehovah's witness doctrine? That's pretty arrogant of you.

 

[michel]

Hi jonny & michel

I am glad that you both found it interesting. To let you both know, I am an independent Bible researcher that tells it like it is, i.e., only the truth. Why? I feel all untruths must be exposed and all should get with Titus 2:1, "But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: " (Authorized King James Bible; AV). Too many are not believing sound doctrine and I have taken it as my task in serving my leader and savior, Jesus (Yeshua) Christ to assist all in knowing the truth and complying with John 17:19, "And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth." (AV). One can not really sanctify himself/herself through the truth if they do not know it, and it is my job as an Ordained Minister of the Gospel of Christ to assist all that want to know it, to know it.

For more on the subject of the Trinity, go to:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/388928

Also, please be so kind as to let me know how you benefit from what you learn there, I am thanking you in advance.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

You don't need to shout Iris, I'm not deaf!
You have a right to your opinionn, just as I have a right to mine.

Now, please, if you are going to ask me to look up supporting evidence for what you have written, stop merely quoting your own writings, on various other forums.

 

[searcher63]

Ummm..can I refer you to her response to me where she tells me to "get real". All I did was quote some scripture. But I wouldn't expect much more from a Jehovah's Witness so it doesn't surprise me.

I'm very sorry that you feel compelled to run someone down for merely complimenting someone else on their kindness. Thats sad.

 

[searcher63]

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Well, your a warm and fuzzy character. And an ordained Jehovah's Witness? You expend an aweful lot of time and effort trying to tear down one of the basic tenets of Christianity, then you end every post with "In Christ". (Except for your response to me). Excuse me Mrs. 89 for having faith.

One of the basic tenants of Christianity?? Are you joking?? The trinity is about as far removed from a basis in Christianity as you can get. Its amazing how people refuse to see truth, based on history especially. But I suppose thats why it was written: "Satan keeps blinding the minds of the unbelievers." The bible also says: True believers would hear "THE RING OF TRUTH". People always think spirituality has to be hard to understand to have merit. Seems to me that GOD would want truth to be easy to understand so that people from ALL walks of life could benefit.