Discrimination in the Catholic Church

[blackout]

Everyone has a right to follow their conscience, and the right to keep it informed.

You either follow others,
or you listen to yourSelf.

For me, it's a no brainer.

 

[kepha31]

Funny thing is that STDs are on the increase most especially in Africa, where condoms are largely unavailable.

Perhaps not, but you can get a squeeky clean abortion clinic.

 

[blackout]

Perhaps not, but you can get a squeeky clean abortion clinic.

?? yet (proper) condom use would cut down on both STD's and abortion.
(for the people who use them properly)


I must be missing something.

 

[Pegg]

Contraception limits what should be boundless. It spits in the face of this glorious passion and love's true abandon; and that is why it is a sin.

hehe, sorry i had a giggle at this point


If contraception was supposed to be boundless...then whats menopause all about?

I would call that a pretty good form of natural contraception. And then there is the little issue in Genesis where God tell Adam and Eve to 'fill' the earth. That would imply that eventually, reproduction of the human race would have to come to its completion otherwise the earth might 'overfill'

so i think contraception is something that should be between a husband and wife. Its not a sin. In many cases its a necessity...especially if you live in a poor country where making a living is difficult. It is not up to the church to decide how many children a family have or dont have.


And that just brings one more point to my mind with regard to reproduction. The apostle Paul encouraged singleness for young christian men and women. He felt that they could devote more of themselves to the Lord if they could make room for singleness. That is not promoting childbirth, is it.

 

[kepha31]

?? yet condom use would cut down on both STD's and abortion.


I must be missing something.

There is not one nation or society where prolific use of contraception has significantly and consistently reduced STD's, abortion, or high divorce rates. If you can find one, I will retract this statement.

So yea, you are missing something.

 

[kepha31]

hehe, sorry i had a giggle at this point


If contraception was supposed to be boundless...then whats menopause all about?

I would call that a pretty good form of natural contraception. And then there is the little issue in Genesis where God tell Adam and Eve to 'fill' the earth. That would imply that eventually, reproduction of the human race would have to come to its completion otherwise the earth might 'overfill'

so i think contraception is something that should be between a husband and wife. Its not a sin. In many cases its a necessity...especially if you live in a poor country where making a living is difficult. It is not up to the church to decide how many children a family have or dont have.

And that just brings one more point to my mind with regard to reproduction. The apostle Paul encouraged singleness for young christian men and women. He felt that they could devote more of themselves to the Lord if they could make room for singleness. That is not promoting childbirth, is it.

It's not promoting contraception either. God designed the sex act to have two primary indivisible functions: the unitive and the procreative. These are intricately interwoven aspects of sexuality. The Church didn't make us this way; it's how God made us. Separating these aspects is contrary to the dignity of the human person. Contraception goes against the design. We are made in his image and likeness.

Paul said in Rom.1:26-27 - For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

Sexual acts without the possibility of procreation is sinful. Self-giving love is life-giving love, or the love is a lie. The unitive and procreative elements of marital love can never be divided, or the marital love is also divided, and God is left out of the marriage.

Paul also said in Ephesians 5:25: Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
Paul instructs husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, by giving his entire body to her and holding nothing back. With contraception, husbands tell their wives, I love you except your fertility, and you can have me except for my fertility. This love is a lie because it is self-centered, and not self-giving and life-giving.
Paul was critical of the Gnostics of his day who forbid marraige. They didn't refrain from marraige according to the teachings of Jesus and Paul on celibacy, they did it because they thought flesh was evil. Celibacy as taught by Jesus and Paul is a gift from God, and has nothing to do with preventing children.

It is not up to the church to decide how many children a family have or dont have.

The Church is not demanding we throw reason out the window.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Violet, sounds like you just got a personal vendetta against the church.

 

[blackout]

There is not one nation or society where prolific use of contraception has significantly and consistently reduced STD's, abortion, or high divorce rates. If you can find one, I will retract this statement.

So yea, you are missing something.

Ironically proper condom use is oddly like proper communion.

Individuals who use it (contraceptive-condoms/communion) CORRECTLY, benefit.
Those who don't may very well bring suffering upon themSelves.

No reason to withhold the benefits from those who will use either one correctly,
on account of those who neglect and or use it improperly, or carelessly.
Everyone has the right to exercise and inform their own reason/conscience.
Everyone has the right to understand how they are to be utilized correctly,
and partake of what benefits them, or not.
To potentially condemn themselves to illness or not.

(except that improper and non use of condoms WILL actually make you sick.
improper and non use of communion won't.)

Those who use condoms PROPERLY do indeed benefit.
ie... they DO ACTUALLY WORK.
Those who don't use them properly, don't benefit.
It's not rocket science,
and It's no different from communion,
except that improper use of one may bring mortal illness or death,
while improper use of the other may bring eternal suffering.

 

[blackout]

You can't blame seat belts for increased car related deaths and injuries
if people DON'T WEAR THEM.
(properly plugged in and all that)

Well, you could... but....

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Violet, sounds like you just got a personal vendetta against the church.

I like how Catholics always accuse anyone who disagrees with Church teaching of having a 'personal vendetta' against the Church.

 

[JacobEzra.]

I like how Catholics always accuse anyone who disagrees with Church teaching of having a 'personal vendetta' against the Church.

I guess you never read her post

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

I guess you never read her post

I read perfectly fine. It wasn't her posts I was referring to.

 

[blackout]

Violet, sounds like you just got a personal vendetta against the church.

In which case you would probably feel i have a personal vendetta against MANY things.
(if you read all 10,000+ of my posts)

I don't though. I'm very calm and happy in my own Self,
in spite of all the bizarreness I see around me.
No vendettas. I do like exercising reason though,
and stretching my thought patterns in areas
where my mind was once confined.
This hardly qualifies as a vendetta.

 

[blackout]

I guess you never read her post

Which post in particular says "vendetta" to you?

 

[Songbird]

Perhaps not, but you can get a squeeky clean abortion clinic.

Where can you get this?

There is not one nation or society where prolific use of contraception has significantly and consistently reduced STD's, abortion, or high divorce rates. If you can find one, I will retract this statement.

So yea, you are missing something.

There are so many studies linking correct condom use with lower STD rates, I encourage you to look it up.

Here's one article about the decline in unwanted pregnancies and STDs, and the causes:

http://www.kff.org/womenshealth/upload/3040-03.pdf

And the CDC has a long report on STDs in the U.S., and it breaks down statistics by several factors:

http://www.cdc.gov/std/stats09/surv2009-Complete.pdf

You can see that while many STDs have declined, some have risen due to improved screening - meaning, 20 years ago, people didn't know they had some of these diseases and didn't go to the doctor to be tested. Routine screening has increased, which resulted in more diagnoses.

 

[sojourner]

We both know that there are many church attending, sacrament recieving catholics,
who are much more liberal than church doctrine would have them be.
They do not adhere to all church doctrine as a rule,
making their own decisions instead of what they do and don't agree with.
They create their own personal catholic experience.
They are liberal catholics. You would most likely call them caffeteria catholics.
Picking and choosing what they want and don't want.
Many of us would call that critical thinking.
Or in other cases fringe church goers,
maybe participate just for the asthetic experience,
or just as the continuation of a pattern from their upbringing.
For their own reasons, either well thought out, or more habitual.

But I think you know all of this.
I'm guessing you don't really consider these other catholics,
catholic at all.
The ones who recieve communion without confession,
while also using contraception or whatnot
all slated for an eternity of suffering in hell
should they die before they confess as penitents.

Still the church takes their money.

Why not just kick them out,
until they con... erm... re'form?
It would keep them from making things worse every sunday at communion.

But the revenues would be lost... (just thinking some new thoughts out loud)

There is an official slot for these people, according to the church (or there was 25 years ago). They are called "conscientious dissenters."

When I got married, my priest told me, "For the record, don't use birth control. Off the record, I hope you'll consider using it, because it's the responsible thing to do these days."

No such thing as a "liberal Catholic???":sarcastic

 

[blackout]

Of my 13,000 posts + I doubt that even 500 of them directly even mention the Roman Catholic church in any capacity what so ever.
This in spite of the fact that I was raised RC, and was a devout RC by choice for 8 years of my adult life,
not to mention, a professional paid pianist/accompanist at a RC parish for 10 years.

There is no reason that I shouldn't be allowed to talk honestly about my life experience/s and observations.

This does not mean I have an axe to grind.

It is a sadness to look back on however, in many ways.
Catholic doctrine did me much personal damage,
and it took me till the age of 38, to fully recover my True Self.

I will say though, that while it was wholly unwise to have 4 children
considering our income,
(and the lack of quality of our relationship)
I love my children like I love mySelf,
and I would not go back and change all of my other personal losses,
because it would also mean the loss of my children.

I feel bad daily though, that I cannot give them much
beyond the very basics, and my love, respect and friendship.
Things will be better for us all around
once I am divorced from their father.

I never would have married him,
if it hadn't been for the RC.
So there you go.

At least my children keep me from profound regret, all around.

 

[blackout]

There is an official slot for these people, according to the church (or there was 25 years ago). They are called "conscientious dissenters."

When I got married, my priest told me, "For the record, don't use birth control. Off the record, I hope you'll consider using it, because it's the responsible thing to do these days."

No such thing as a "liberal Catholic???":sarcastic

I didn't say there was no such thing as a liberal catholic.

JacobEzra did. Well, he CLEARLY insinuated it.

I referred to "conservative catholics",
to which he responded,
"what other kind is there?"

(my communion comment was tongue in cheek.
I personally couldn't care less who uses birth control,
and receives communion.)

 

[Revoltingest]

I didn't say there was no such thing as a liberal catholic.
JacobEzra did. Well, he CLEARLY insinuated it.
I referred to "conservative catholics",
to which he responded,
"what other kind is there?"

In my extended family, we have Catholics, Muslims, Xians, & most of all heathens.
The Catholics come from my brother's wife.
Guess which side is the only one with out-of-wedlock children (a real plethora too).
Surprisingly, they seem particularly devout Catholics too.

Note: Just an amusing anecdote. No criticism intended.

Anyway, it's hard to get all worked up about the Church discriminating based upon their theology.
I expect them to do this, & have no problem provided that it doesn't cause grief for those outside the faith.
The local temple won't let me preach there....something about my being a bacon-eating Palestinian-loving non-Jewish ignorant Revoltistanian heathen.
That strikes me as good judgement on their part.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The masses are not all in a state of mortal sin. It is extemely rare that anyone is refused Holy Communion. The most likely person to be denied Holy Communion is a politician who publicly supports abortion. It's up to the individual to make the determination of whether or not they are worthy to partake, the Church simply provides guidelines.
Everyone has a right to follow their conscience, and the right to keep it informed.

Are you sure that the masses aren't in a state of mortal sin?

Missing Mass without good reason is a mortal sin; how many people do you know who do that at least occasionally? How many of them do you think confess before the next time they do attend Mass?

Personally, I think that the way the Eucharist is administered leads to quite a bit of social pressure to take it. Especially in a small parish, if the people around you see that you don't go up for your wafer, this will be fodder for gossip: "Looks like he's in a state of mortal sin! I wonder what he's been up to lately!" If the Church really wanted to safeguard people's souls, they'd do things differently; maybe instead of administering the Eucharist in front of everyone, they'd have people duck behind some sort of screen so that if you refuse it, only you and the priest would know.

It's not promoting contraception either. God designed the sex act to have two primary indivisible functions: the unitive and the procreative. These are intricately interwoven aspects of sexuality. The Church didn't make us this way; it's how God made us. Separating these aspects is contrary to the dignity of the human person. Contraception goes against the design. We are made in his image and likeness.

Personally, I think that the IMO unhealthy degree to which the Catholic Church paints sex - and to a degree marriage as well - as an enterprise for baby-making is contrary to the dignity of the human person.