Discuss Paul's contradictions with Jesus?

[Hawkeye112200]

Theres the rub. Forcing the harmonization of Paul to the Gospels on the assumption that what Paul wrote is infallible.

It doesn't really agree with Jesus for the most part either. Paul talks a lot about grace where Jesus talked a lot about honoring the commandments. In fact when I look at the Gospels it doesn't even seem like Paul knows that Jesus.

Jesus wrote that faith in him is not enough, did Paul agree with this, I'm not so sure.

I see your claim, but little evidence so far. Please don't misunderstand me, I am welcoming it. I just need more than "Paul talks about this, and Jesus talks about that".
We need more specifics if we are going to get to the bottom of this.

 

[outhouse]

I see your claim, but little evidence so far. Please don't misunderstand me, I am welcoming it. I just need more than "Paul talks about this, and Jesus talks about that".
We need more specifics if we are going to get to the bottom of this.

there are no specifics on what jesus taught.


at best you can use sayings from Q and Thomas, and those are not even known to be jesus originals but followed by most.

 

[Hawkeye112200]

Some more context on the verse I posted earlier. He was changing something he said earlier but it doesn't make it much better. Avoiding hypocrites isn't possible either.

1 Corinthians 5
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

This again, seems to underline the concept that if a person does not become saved, that we partake not in their life style.
The assumption here is that Jesus hung out with these types of people and didn't demand or perform some change in their lives. I think that would be out of character to assume Jesus would just sit around eating grapes why people talked about Mary's fine bust or round behind. Just doesn't make sense.
We also have to realize that Jesus was much more powerful than the people Paul is instructing in Corinthians, which by extension could include even us today. That if we are around people that live a certain life style that we know to be contrary to the wishes of God, one of two things happens. We begin to conform to their ways, or we become an outcast because we are unhappy being around that kind of people, because we don't approve of their choices.
So Paul rightly teaches, don't make your life with them.

This brings up a great and powerful point we haven't touched yet. Jesus, the Apostles, and a select other few, had special powers, that we simply don't have. They were directly sent, had power to kill, resurrect, do miracles etc...

Us, and the rest of people simply have their faith, their heart, their mind, and have to face the world. So it is not fair to think that Paul would go around telling people to hang out with sinners, because all will be well. Paul knew it would not be well, it would be tempting.

What Paul and Jesus left us with, are the tools to become more Christ like, by reflecting on life around us, reflecting on our own choices, and becoming a better person. We don't do this to get saved, or earn brownie points, it is just a perk or bonus we have in our daily walk with God.

As a result, I am sure there are people even today that can hang around sinners (like inmates at prison, or at strip clubs, etc...) and not be tempted, and try to spread the word.

Anyway, I hope this added some extra info for our discussion.

 

[outhouse]

We also have to realize that Jesus was much more powerful than the people Paul is instructing in Corinthians,

thats false

jesus was a pverty stricken poor teacher who traveled around for dinner scraps, he surrounded himself with a few poor fishermen who at that time were seen as below peasants.

 

[Hawkeye112200]

t Jesus never taught anyone he was a deity or saviour

Obviously the bible says otherwise, the gospels say otherwise.
Not sure what is left to discuss with you. What is your point?

I think you have so much to say, you might actually benefit from trying to write a book, and sell it. I mean that honestly, I am not being sarcastic. I sense a burning desire to share your perspective.

Wish you the best.

 

[outhouse]

What Paul and Jesus left us with

jesus didnt leave us with anything.

paul left us a few letters of what he taught. That is not what jesus taught.

 

[Hawkeye112200]

thats false

jesus was a pverty stricken poor teacher who traveled around for dinner scraps, he surrounded himself with a few poor fishermen who at that time were seen as below peasants.

OK I get it. You have a view of Jesus that is ironclad, AND NOTHING ANYONE say will ever change that.

I simply don't believe what you are saying, and will be the glad recipient of your insults and mockery. It's OK. As I suggested a minute ago, I would bet a bunch of money that if you wrote a book, it might very well be a best seller. There is a huge crowd looking for the type of Jesus you are presenting.

Just not me.

 

[outhouse]

Obviously the bible says otherwise, the gospels say otherwise.

So your going to take the word of people who never new or met jesus, or heard a word pass his lips! who belonged to another culture! and who lived no where near where jesus lived! WHO wrote decades after his life. ALL based on cross cultural oral tradition

Its not really even a matter of taking the word of these unknown authors, because everything I have stated is in scripture, you must be choosing to ignore parts you dont like, im not sure though as to what you follow or dont.

biblical jesus is not historical jesus, and if you want to learn what jesus and the BIBLE is all about you need to learn what historical jesus was all aboyt. not refuse what is really known in favor of mythology.

No use writing a book that covers what modern scholarships all known.

 

[Hawkeye112200]

jesus didnt leave us with anything.

paul left us a few letters of what he taught. That is not what jesus taught.

Really man? Stone walling the conversation with Jesus isn't supernatural, but just a peasant, is uncalled for.
That is a pure secular point of view, I get it, I understand it, and I reject it. So, who are you arguing with here? I am not interested.

If you come to the bible with the idea, that the supernatural does not exist, or at least not in the case of the Jesus story, much in the bible will simply not make sense. I get that, truly I do. I have little interest in that at this point, and admit I open myself to ridicule by other for saying that, but it is my choice for now. OK?

 

[outhouse]

OK I get it. You have a view of Jesus that is ironclad, AND NOTHING ANYONE say will ever change that.

I simply don't believe what you are saying, and will be the glad recipient of your insults and mockery. It's OK. As I suggested a minute ago, I would bet a bunch of money that if you wrote a book, it might very well be a best seller. There is a huge crowd looking for the type of Jesus you are presenting.

Just not me.

thi sis a matter of histroy and those who choose to refuse what is known.

I just understand the difference between biblical jesus and the real jesus of history.



Like it or not biblical jesus was mythology added to a real man, much the way many roman authors wrote about mortal men that carried the title "son of god" long before jesus came around.

 

[Hawkeye112200]

thi sis a matter of histroy and those who choose to refuse what is known.

I just understand the difference between biblical jesus and the real jesus of history.



Like it or not biblical jesus was mythology added to a real man, much the way many roman authors wrote about mortal men that carried the title "son of god" long before jesus came around.

ok...

 

[outhouse]

Really man? Stone walling the conversation with Jesus isn't supernatural, but just a peasant, is uncalled for.
That is a pure secular point of view, I get it, I understand it, and I reject it. So, who are you arguing with here? I am not interested.

If you come to the bible with the idea, that the supernatural does not exist, or at least not in the case of the Jesus story, much in the bible will simply not make sense. I get that, truly I do. I have little interest in that at this point, and admit I open myself to ridicule by other for saying that, but it is my choice for now. OK?

you started a thread about the contradictions of two people.

but then you refuse to understand the cultural anthropology of both people, and flat refuse known history of jesus


jesus title is tekton, that is a handworker that is also below a peasant, just like his fisherman friends. he was never a carpenter as there was little wood in nazareth. he traveled town to town preaching and healing for dinner scraps, this is all in the scripture. he tells his poverty stricked apostles to give up their "beggar bowls" his apostles had to beg to survive before he came around and showed them that with his teaching and healing they could eat without begging.

do you have any idea what it was like to live in galilee during the time of jesus living under roman oppression?

do you understand the 4 different groups of judaism and subsects in jesus time?

Do you understand what and who influenced jesus during his lifetime?

 

[Hawkeye112200]

you started a thread about the contradictions of two people.

Indeed I did.
Not everyone agrees with your position. Hitting people over the head will not increase that either. You are not infallible, though you love to argue with someone that isn't arguing back???

but then you refuse to understand the cultural anthropology of both people, and flat refuse known history of jesus

Understanding culture and completely denouncing supernatural aspects, is a secular choice I am not interested. No matter how strong you may feel. I can totally appreciate the traditions and cultural aspects, but I can also embrace and understand the deeper metaphysical truths that come along with the books.

jesus title is tekton, that is a handworker that is also below a peasant, just like his fisherman friends. he was never a carpenter as there was little wood in nazareth. he traveled town to town preaching and healing for dinner scraps, this is all in the scripture. he tells his poverty stricked apostles to give up their "beggar bowls" his apostles had to beg to survive before he came around and showed them that with his teaching and healing they could eat without begging.

Yet this is one more spin to add to the mix. Not everyone agrees with you or this. Despite what some scholars will have to say. Jesus mocked and ridiculed scholars for some of their knowledge.

do you have any idea what it was like to live in galilee during the time of jesus living under roman oppression?

yes

do you understand the 4 different groups of judaism and subsects in jesus time?

to some degree

Do you understand what and who influenced jesus during his lifetime?

I think I do, yes.

 

[outhouse]

Understanding culture and completely denouncing supernatural aspects,

so mythology and magic is better then known history.


if thats the case then you need to rephrase your thread to, "what were the unknown roman authors contradictions with pauline christianity in mythology". and I never would have got involved.

Not everyone agrees with you or this

false, modern scholarip is all im talking about and staying in the middle at that.

Jesus mocked and ridiculed scholars for some of their knowledge.

says who? we dont know what jesus really said. sources please. he doesnt mock modern scholars now does he ?

Yet this is one more spin to add to the mix.

historical truth is not spin, what i stated is fact based on how the original greek is properly translated. had he been a carpenter in a place with no wood, he would have been called a "tekton of wood" the fact there is nothing to describe what kind of tekton he was signifies he was a general handworker, which based in scripture provided us with enough understanding of his life to state he worked with stone, not wood.

yes

so you understand that the oppresssion and taxation was so bad, extreme poverty and starvation and disease were everywhere, jews were willing to commit suicide to fight the oppression because death was easier then living.?

to some degree

Zeaolots
Pharisees
Saducees
Essenes


and by scripture we know jesus was more a man who figured out how to beat the romans at their own game by being a peaceful Zealot, which in the end is what got him killed [luke 23;2]

he did not follow the Pharisees as we have the woe's of the pharisees

he hated the Saducees and looked at them as corrupted by the roman influence, of course everyone hated the jewish governement at that time as the leaders were roman appointed.

he was not a Essene as he doesnt have that many traits of their cult.

galilee was home to mostly zealots and its no supprise jesus follows much of this tax evasion as possible preaching to tax collectors to quit raping the people.

I think I do, yes.

Yes John the babtist

who ate bugs and bee's nest to survive, and whore a camel hair tunic which amounted to a burlap sack! and lived outdoors like a poverty stricken bum. Out of all the sects of judaism, this is the man who jesus decides to follow and carry on his teachings.


jesus was glorified and remembered for his fight for the common hardworking peasants which made up most of judaism in his lifetime, he fought the roman oppression and taxation, and was killed due to his temple incident fighting the roman infection in the temple and how gods house was being used for monetary gain instead of to worship yahweh. jesus dies more for money then theology.

 

[Hawkeye112200]

so mythology and magic is better then known history.

...never would have got involved.

My apologies it is not to your liking, and was not explained clearer.
Til next time perhaps...

 

[outhouse]

so if their contradictions are all magic!! what do you want to debate about?

 

[Hawkeye112200]

so if their contradictions are all magic!! what do you want to debate about?

Your aim to paint a purely secular picture is clear. It is clear in just about every post you offer the RF that has to do with this topic.

You must get frustrated by the lack of interest in this portrayal of Jesus and the Bible?

Probably not though, I am sure you are greatly comforted by all the scholarship you read. I am sure you feel so assured you are not like those that think the myth could be real, etc. etc.

I am conversing fine with the other two posters who are actually interested and offering context right out of the bible. They seem to not have the same problem you are having.

 

[outhouse]

Your aim to paint a purely secular picture is clear. It is clear in just about every post you offer the RF that has to do with this topic.

because theology is often mixed with mythology. mythology is not accurate history, which is not to state it is devoid of history.

You must get frustrated by the lack of interest in this portrayal of Jesus and the Bible?

not at all.

its beyond interesting actually how a mortal poverty stricken peasant was deified, matching mortal romans of the time who were also claimed to be "the son of god"

I am sure you are greatly comforted by all the scholarship you read

comforting is the wrong word.

I have a thirst for knowledge on this subject.

I am sure you feel so assured you are not like those that think the myth could be real, etc. etc.

the key point of interest here is looking at history and figuring out how the myths orignated through the historicity of events.

what you are talking about is a matter of education, nothing more. There is no mystery here.

They seem to not have the same problem you are having.

I wouldnt call it a problem to follow known history, and having a understanding of how a religion is created. And being able to debate it logically.

To refuse the knowledge, is a problem, and that is something your doing not me.

I am conversing fine with the other two posters who are actually interested and offering context right out of the bible.

thats wonderful if you want to stay in the confines of mythology.

BUT thats not what your asking in your OP


the only way to know what jesus really said is to understand historical jesus.

even then you have pauline chrsitianity and jesus teachings which are still different

 

[Hawkeye112200]

Outhouse let me ask you something.
Are you one of those people that think the wisdom presented in the Gospels, the Acts, the Epistles and all of the NT are simply borrowed and rehashed versions of Egyptian and older neighboring culture tales and so forth, and that there isn't anything new perse' in the NT?

That what is recorded and presented to us, isn't really groundbreaking, but just good story telling? Is that what you chalk the NT up to? Aside from some of the historical instances in the NT, is that your general feeling towards the NT?

 

[outhouse]

Outhouse let me ask you something.
Are you one of those people that think the wisdom presented in the Gospels, the Acts, the Epistles and all of the NT are simply borrowed and rehashed versions of Egyptian and older neighboring culture tales and so forth, and that there isn't anything new perse' in the NT?

absolutely not.

That what is recorded and presented to us, isn't really groundbreaking, but just good story telling?

'

false

thats ignorance of how mythology was used and written.

religion is created by man, and who man chooses to worship is also created.

Is that what you chalk the NT up to?

wrong again.

Aside from some of the historical instances in the NT, is that your general feeling towards the NT?

a mortal man left a impression on a large group of people during his incident in the temple, where roughly 400,000 people might have witnessed his possible riot in the temple and then his crucifiction. He fought against the oppression and taxation of the romans in a peaceful way knowing violence was something romans had mastered and in no way could you win in that manner. and had unique parables and was very intelligent for a poor peasant.

Jesus movement was purely in judaism and in no way a gentile mission.

jesus movement was short lived in judaism much like a shooting star but based on this mortal man a sect of judaism was formed which caught the eye of paul a jewish roman who made himself a apostle and took his version, completely different then jesus version to the roman empire

in jesus time there were a large number of romans worshipping in synagogues called god-fearers, this was a perfect audience for paul to take his version of jesus movement which was theology based more so then jesus movement which was more or less a matter of survival.

the gospels were written for a roman audience probably by converted god fearers who lived in a much different place then jesus, never heard a word he said and knew nothing of the real man 30-40 years after his death from cross cultural oral tradition.


all of the writings we have are what amounts to be jesus enemies, its why every thing writing about jesus is silent on his movement being for gentiles, It wasnt. jesus taught to hardworking poor jews in small villages. jesus hated the roman oppression and occupation and hated the roman infection in the temple which to jews was gods home. The jewish governement and treasury were corrupted due to the roman infection and raping jews to the point of starvation. and all we have is the roman approved version of who jesus was.