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Discussion: Islamic teachings by Dr. Badawi (Canada)

And in fact, the U.S. is not the only country that experimented with a prohibition on alcohol in the 20th century. Many countries tried it and failed within 10 years or so (from wiki): Prohibition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the early twentieth century, much of the impetus for the prohibition movement in the Nordic countries and North America came from Protestant wariness of alcohol.[1]
The first half of the 20th century saw periods of prohibition of alcoholic beverages in several countries:

Notice, also, that the primary motivation for alcohol prohibitions was religious conservativism. This does not mean an alcohol prohibition cannot be good in any circumstances. What it *does* mean is that an alcohol prohibition can be terrible in some circumstances. Yet Islamic law seems to leave little room for considerations of circumstance.
 

Sahar

Well-Known Member
Yet Islamic law seems to leave little room for considerations of circumstance.
You're dead wrong. The truth is quite the opposite.
Moreover, you missed the point that I was trying to convey by quoting my post about prohibition of Alcohol in Islam. Islam didn't prohibit Alcohol at the beginning because the circumstances were not appropriate then, in other words if the Qur'an prohibited it, it would fail and no one would listen but the prohibition was prescribed after sixteen years from the start of revelation. Islam didn't prohibit Alcohol except after creating a society of believers and sowing the seeds of Iman (faith) and conviction inside them so when the Qur'an prohibited something like Alcohol, they were prepared for such prescription that's why their response was obeying; it was easy after they were strong in their faith.
It would be craziness to prohibit something like Alcohol which was so deeply rooted in and infiltrated the pre-Islamic society (just like it's now in many non-Muslim societies) all of a sudden. Actually it wouldn't work and your examples are my evidence. And here it lies Allah's wisdom. Islam could eradicate something called Alcohol in its followers' lives (until today) with their approval but your governments couldn't. Islam was successful because Islam considered the circumstances and the nature of human beings.

Thus, before a government that establishes the Islamic Sharia, you should establish a society of believers first who will be ready to submit to the the Shari'a of Allah. In other words the Islamic government's legitimacy comes from the will of the people. Therefore when the elected Islamic government implements something like Alcohol prohibition, this means that the people are ready to submit and the circumstances are perfectly fitting.
But to people in a non Muslim society who wake up and sleep on Alcohol, you can't tell them all of a sudden "No Alcohol anymore", they would go crazy as you just showed, thanks to you.

Here I should say that the Qur'an gives us the basics with some examples but not the details because the details will change from time to time and from place to place depending on the different circumstances. There is a very famous Fiqh principle that says; the Fatwa changes with the change of time and place. The Qur'anic verses and hadiths are limited but the circumstances and situations in the different places and times are limitless and that's why Islam draw the broad lines for us and we are going to work our minds in the details based on the Qur'an and the Sunnah guidance. The Qur'an didn't talk about genetic engineering for example because it's one thing of millions of things we faced and going to face, however, the Qur'an gave us the guideline which directs us to the stance that we should take on an issue like the genetic engineering. That's why Islam is a dynamic religion. There are clear Islamic basic principles that are not subjected to change and there are branches and secondaries that are subjected to change and to the different understandings and opinions.
 
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Sahar

Well-Known Member
not4me, thank you very much for posting these relevant verses.
You're welcome.
If anything, these verses strike me for their great imperfection in communicating wisdom to us on these issues. For example, there is no precise definition of "intoxicants". In light of modern biochemistry, we know that many things we eat have intoxicating effects, including chocolate, tea, coffee, tobacco, and of course many medicines. The degree to which the things we eat and drink affect our behavior is a gray scale that depends on context, there is no black-and-white line between "intoxicated" and "not intoxicated". A high quality modern book about these issues would use precise terms such as "alcohol" and "Blood Alcohol Content", "risk factors vs. benefits", rather than outdated, cultural-specific terms such as "wine", "intoxicants", and "defilement from the work of Satan". The last three terms serve to cloud, not clarify, our rational thinking on this issue.
The Arabic word used in the Qur'an is "Khamr".

[FONT=Book Antiqua, Times New Roman, Times]The drink prohibited in Islam is described as Khamr. The word Khamr which is equivalent to the word liquor in English, is derived from the verb khamara which means “he covered, hid, or concealed.” Since liquor shrouds the intellect of man, and renders it invalid for discriminating between right and wrong, it is, therefore, called khamr. Khamr is differently explained as meaning what intoxicates, of the expressed juice or grapes, or the juice of grapes when it was effervesced and thrown up froth, and become freed therefrom, and still or it has a common application to intoxicating expressed juice of anything, or any intoxicating thing that clouds or obscures the intellect. [/FONT]
[FONT=Book Antiqua, Times New Roman, Times]1.Another view is that khamr has been so termed due to the reason that it is put up in a place till it turns into wine. Turning of a drink into wine implies the change of odour. All these featuers appear in khamr. [/FONT]
Furthermore, it does not address any real, established, modern facts on the issue. Again, there is *zero* harm with moderate drinking. Moderate drinkers live longer than people who do not drink. The same is true of sugars and fats. Eating excessive sugar increases the risk of obesity which is very harmful; some people are even sugar addicts. On the other hand, we are healthier if we eat sugars in moderation than if we neglect them entirely. It would be strange to think of a state prohibition on candy. Why are such critical facts omitted from the verses you quoted? To me it seems clear: those verses were authored by people hudreds of years ago, and those people did not have the benefit of the enormous knowledge we have accumulated in the past 1,300 years.

Surely the authors cannot be blamed for not knowing what we know today. Nevertheless, no book can be considered to have perfect, indisputable wisdom about any topic when it has such glaring omissions. There are better sources of wisdom on this issue.

Compare the verses you quoted to the following considerations on alcohol prohibition which can be found at an online encyclopedia:
The most direct effects of prohibitions are on the supply and demand for the prohibited commodity.4 Prohibitions raise supply costs because black market suppliers face legal punishments for manufacturing, distributing, and selling. Conditional on operating in secret, however, black market suppliers face low marginal costs of evading government regulations and taxes (Miron 2001), which provides a partial offset to the increased costs due to prohibition.5 Prohibitions reduce demand by creating legal penalties for possession and by increasing uncertainty about product quality.6 Prohibitions also reduce demand if consumers exhibit "respect for the law." At the same time, prohibitions can increase demand through a "forbidden fruit" effect, meaning a tendency for consumers to desire that which has been forbidden to them. Thus, the effect of prohibitions on price and even quantity are ambiguous a priori and must be determined empirically.

In addition to affecting price and quantity, prohibitions potentially increase violent and non-violent crime. Participants in an illegal trade cannot use the legal and judicial system to resolve disputes, so they seek other methods such as violence. Enforcement of prohibitions means reduced resources for enforcement of non-prohibition laws, which implies reduced deterrence of crime generally. Prohibitions can increase income-generating crime, such as theft or prostitution, by raising prices if consumers finance consumption of the prohibited commodity from such crime. And prohibitions give black market suppliers an incentive to corrupt law enforcement officials and politicians. Despite these tendencies to increase crime, the net effect of prohibitions on crime can be negative if prohibitions discourage consumption of the prohibited good and if such consumption encourages criminal activity. Thus, the net effect of prohibitions on crime can only be determined empirically.

Two other effects of prohibitions are the effects on overdoses and accidental poisonings. Because suppliers in a prohibited market must hide their activities from the authorities, they have a strong incentive to produce and ship the good in the most concentrated and hence most easily concealed form (Thornton 1998). This implies that prohibitions help make the potent forms of a good more readily available or even help create more potent forms of a prohibited substance. By itself this effect does not necessarily change the manner in which consumption takes place; consumers can potentially redilute the commodity in question to achieve their desired degree of potency. But in practice such redilution is imperfect, suggesting increased overdoses under prohibitions.7
....etc.
Or compare the verses to this:
Alcohol problems vary in severity from mild to life threatening and affect the individual, the person's family, and society in numerous adverse ways. Despite all of the focus on drugs such as cocaine, alcohol remains the number one drug problem in the United States. According to community surveys, over 13% of adults in the United States will experience alcohol abuse or dependence (also referred to as alcoholism) at some point in their lives.
Withdrawal, for those physically dependent on alcohol, is much more dangerous than withdrawal from heroin or other narcotic drugs.

  • Alcohol abuse refers to excessive or problematic use with one or more of the following:
    • Failure to fulfill major obligations at work, school, or home
    • Recurrent use in situations where it is hazardous (such as driving a car or operating machinery)
    • Legal problems
    • Continued use of alcohol despite having social, family, or interpersonal problems caused by or worsened by drinking

  • Alcohol dependence refers to a more serious disorder and involves excessive or maladaptive use leading to 3 or more of the following:
    • Tolerance changes (need for more to achieve desired effect, or achieving the effect with lesser amounts of alcohol)
    • Withdrawal symptoms following a reduction or cessation of drinking (such as sweating, rapid pulse, tremors, insomnia, nausea, vomiting, hallucinations, agitation, anxiety, or seizures) or using alcohol to avoid withdrawal symptoms (for example, early morning drinking)
    • Drinking more alcohol or drinking over a longer period of time than intended (loss of control)
    • Inability to cut down or stop
    • Spending a great deal of time drinking or recovering from its effects
    • Giving up important social, occupational, or recreational activities
    • Continuing to drink despite knowing alcohol use has caused or worsened problems
    Alcoholism
The U.S. Department of Justice Report on Alcohol and Crime found that alcohol abuse was a factor in 40 percent of violent crimes committed in the U.S.

Crime and Alcohol
 
You're welcome.
The Arabic word used in the Qur'an is "Khamr". ...
I see. Then I concede that point, but you did not address the other criticisms I made.

not4me said:
Or compare the verses to this:
....
The U.S. Department of Justice Report on Alcohol and Crime found that alcohol abuse was a factor in 40 percent of violent crimes committed in the U.S.

Crime and Alcohol
What you posted is yet another example of a text that speaks with greater clarity and wisdom than the Qu'ran on this particular issue.

To respond to your other post.....

Well, we will have to agree to disagree on alcohol. You say we're better off outlawing it, I say it makes us happier and increases our lifespan. You say alcohol will only be prohibitied when the people are ready to "submit"....but I say that in a democracy the people should never "submit" to any power but themselves, the people grant government the temporary power to enforce this or that law, and the people can take that power away. If the people "submit" to some regime--Islamic or otherwise--who prevents that regime from abusing its power? In principle you would say an Islamic regime is accountable to Allah, but in practice it is accountable to no one, because as I pointed out before Allah has not intervened to prevent countless tyrannies. Unchecked power corrupts, if history is any indication. I would expect Islam as a political system to inevitably devolve into a tyrannical regime which, among other things, cynically uses religion to control its population. And I wonder if the history of Islam, the Ottoman Empire and the modern Islamic countries, do not bear this out.

I concede that Islam does in fact leave room for considerations of circumstance in many areas. However, it does not leave room for altering some basic principles which, i.m.o., ought to be re-evaluated in light of the realities of the modern world. Furthermore, Islam does not leave much room for circumstance on a number of specific issues (the punishment for apostasy being one of them).

But I admit that the prohibition of alcohol is one of Islam's more plausible prescriptions. I think I am on firmer ground questioning Islam's opposition to secular democracy, treatment of apostates and homosexuals, etc.
 
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Cordoba

Well-Known Member
Well, we will have to agree to disagree on alcohol. You say we're better off outlawing it, I say it makes us happier and increases our lifespan.

The Qur'an mentions that there is some benefit in alcohol, but that the harm caused by alcohol is greater than the benefits (this is mentioned in chapter 2)

This is one of the guiding principles to understanding Islam: God commands Muslims to stay away from that which may cause them harm

We could disagree on that, but that is our faith and religion

Peace and all the best
 

Sahar

Well-Known Member
What you posted is yet another example of a text that speaks with greater clarity and wisdom than the Qu'ran on this particular issue.
Again, the truth is the opposite. The Qur'an is extremely eloquent and wise on this particular issue (and on the other issues ;)).
"They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit"
This Ayah summarized the article you posted and the articles which I posted eloquently only in few words.

Well, we will have to agree to disagree on alcohol. You say we're better off outlawing it, I say it makes us happier
So as Morphine, Amphetamine, BDZs...etc.
and increases our lifespan.
"They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit" Al Baqara: 219
You say alcohol will only be prohibitied when the people are ready to "submit"....but I say that in a democracy the people should never "submit" to any power but themselves
Under the Islamic political system the people and the government should submit to the Qur'an and the Sunnah/Islamic Shari'a.

and the people can take that power away. If the people "submit" to some regime--Islamic or otherwise--who prevents that regime from abusing its power?
I guess, in our modern time, we have known the state of institutions and experienced the democratic system and processes that prevent the government from abusing its power. The government is accountable and subjected to removal if it has abused its powers and deviated from the Islamic Shari'a....

I concede that Islam does in fact leave room for considerations of circumstance in many areas. However, it does not leave room for altering some basic principles which, i.m.o., ought to be re-evaluated in light of the realities of the modern world. Furthermore, Islam does not leave much room for circumstance on a number of specific issues (the punishment for apostasy being one of them).
The punishment for apostacy needs much talk. I made a post before about this issue: Ridda (apostasy)
 
Again, the truth is the opposite. The Qur'an is extremely eloquent and wise on this particular issue (and on the other issues ;)).
"They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit"
This Ayah summarized the article you posted and the articles which I posted eloquently only in few words.
We will have to agree to disagree on this point. :shrug:

Mr Spinkles said:
Well, we will have to agree to disagree on alcohol. You say we're better off outlawing it, I say it makes us happier
not4me said:
So as Morphine, Amphetamine, BDZs...etc.
Indeed. Of course all drugs, foods, drinks, medicines, and activities must be evaluated individually, since they are all very different. Many medicines make people feel happier, too.
not4me said:

"They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit"
Al Baqara: 219
I'm sorry, but I do not agree. As with a great many things, it depends on the circumstances. If you drink alcohol in moderation, the benefits are great and the sin is zero. The same is true of eating sweets.

not4me said:
Under the Islamic political system the people and the government should submit to the Qur'an and the Sunnah/Islamic Shari'a.
They should, but who will make sure they actually do, and how? (The voters? The court judges? How?)

not4me said:
The punishment for apostacy needs much talk. I made a post before about this issue: Ridda (apostasy)
If there is a punishment for apostacy at all, then that is contrary to freedom of thought and conscience.
 
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