Divination - Not What You Think

[LuisDantas]

Wow, a thread created on my behalf. I feel flattered. Hopefully that will not taint it too much...

As you will recall, @Quintessence , I had asked specifically about the I Ching, although I do not think it is after all all that unusual among divination systems.

The I Ching did however strike me as unexpected in that it encouraged some form of contemplation on uncertainties and pragmatical realities, on flows and cycles.

It seems to me that you are proposing that a similar use of other divination systems is, if not usual, at least valid and possible.

If I am following you, that would mean that the goal is not so much to "tell the future" as it is to nurture a proper contemplative, inspired, aware mindset that will attempt to deal with the future in the most informed and constructive way possible. A tool for decision-making, not for superstitious stagnation into some rigid expectation about what the future is "meant" to be.

Does that sound somewhat in line with what you know?

 

[Quintessence]

Does that sound somewhat in line with what you know?

That sounds right.

On the whole, this is a perspective I learned through reading the literature of those who practice. When divination is mentioned in various Pagan 101 books or works on divination itself, authors will often beat the reader over the head with "this is not an escapist tool" and "the future is not set in stone" or "use this to think about your actions and their consequences" type of stuff. The folks who practice divination are often big believers in free will, and belief in free will doesn't enable a worldview that supports deterministic fortune telling in the first place. It's why I mostly laugh at the fortune teller stereotype, because it is so out of touch with the reality of the community.

None of this is to say there aren't people who abuse divination, or that there aren't issues with it. When you move from divining for yourself to divining for other people, there are some important ethical issues involved with that. And as with any profession, there are people who are fraudulent or disingenuous. Unfortunately, some communities ban divinatory practices because a few of them engage in fraud (this would be like banning accounting because some accountants them are guilty of tax fraud!). I wouldn't mind seeing regulation of diviners - requiring them to have licensure as therapists in particular since that is the role they typically serve - but also recognize that's opening up a big can of worms...

 

[Erebus]

It seems to me that you are proposing that a similar use of other divination systems is, if not usual, at least valid and possible.

I hope you don't mind me chiming in on this particular point.

A lot of people (myself included) probably start out expecting divination to tell them the future. Teenagers right? Some will then become disillusioned when it doesn't always work, others will learn to look at it from a more pragmatic viewpoint.

I used to read tarot for people at university. What I'd always tell them is "don't expect this to tell you what's going to happen tomorrow. View it as offering some useful advice you can apply to your life."

 

[Sleeppy]

That sounds right.

On the whole, this is a perspective I learned through reading the literature of those who practice. When divination is mentioned in various Pagan 101 books or works on divination itself, authors will often beat the reader over the head with "this is not an escapist tool" and "the future is not set in stone" or "use this to think about your actions and their consequences" type of stuff. The folks who practice divination are often big believers in free will, and belief in free will doesn't enable a worldview that supports deterministic fortune telling in the first place. It's why I mostly laugh at the fortune teller stereotype, because it is so out of touch with the reality of the community.

Do you personally know anyone practicing divination (maybe on this forum), that is of a deterministic worldview?

 

[LuisDantas]

I hope you don't mind me chiming in on this particular point.

By all means, go on.

A lot of people (myself included) probably start out expecting divination to tell them the future. Teenagers right? Some will then become disillusioned when it doesn't always work, others will learn to look at it from a more pragmatic viewpoint.

I used to read tarot for people at university. What I'd always tell them is "don't expect this to tell you what's going to happen tomorrow. View it as offering some useful advice you can apply to your life."

I have a hunch that this is the best possible approach.

 

[Erebus]

I have a hunch that this is the best possible approach.

Agreed

 

[Quintessence]

Do you personally know anyone practicing divination (maybe on this forum), that is of a deterministic worldview?

You mean other than me?

I don't know. I don't really keep track.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Divination.

This term conjures up many thoughts and ideas. On the whole, it is a practice dismissed by many in my culture, though for different reasons. Much of the dismissive attitude emerges from various misconceptions about what divination is. As divination isn't something we learn about in public education, what people know about the art is limited to popular culture, hearsay, and stereotypes rather than proper study. There are a couple of common misconceptions about divination that are worth addressing:

Misconception #1: Divination is about predicting the future.
In fairness, divination can be and has been used for this purpose. Skeptics are often critical of divination because they equate it with fortune telling. However, the uses for divination are hardly confined to this purpose. What divination does on a psychological level is facilitate thought and reflection. It's a tool that helps us think about things, like chatting with a friend or researching something in a library. It helps us get in touch with our feelings and our thoughts; it helps us become aware of the stories we're telling ourselves or how we are approaching a situation. And by understanding all that, it can help us to reframe how we think about things to better reach our goals. Put another way, divination is an introspective tool and can get the gears of critical thinking churning to power positive changes in someone's life.

Misconception #2: Divination involves the supernatural.
As with the first misconception, a bit of fairness is in order here. To some people who practice divination, they believe there is something supernatural about it, or some supernatural power involved. However, at the end of the day, there are multiple models to explain how divination works, and only some of them invoke supernatural explanations. It comes down to what the person chooses to believe about it. And regardless of what the person chooses to believe about it, from an academic perspective, we can always approach divination through the lens of the social sciences. From that perspective, divination works because it takes advantage of our mental processes. In particular, works through our ability to detect patterns and create meaning from them... things like symbolic thought.
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Why am I posting all this? Well, for one, @LuisDantas called me out on it via PM a while back and I felt some obligation to make the thread. For two, I'm tired of detractors of divination mouthing off against it based on ill-informed ideas about what it is... and particularly when "skeptics" string together divination with things like alien abductions as if they are somehow equivalent. Lastly, I've practiced divination for years and hope it will be useful to someone to know a little more about it. Feel free to ask me any and all questions you might have about divination, as there are other misconceptions beyond just these two! Or, if you prefer, since I posted this in the debate section, demolish at will! Have you held to any of these misconceptions? Do you feel they are misconceptions? What have you been taught divination is? Do you practice?

The definition of divination is: the practice of seeking knowledge of the future or the unknown by supernatural means.

 

[Quintessence]

The definition of divination is: the practice of seeking knowledge of the future or the unknown by supernatural means.

One thing I am definitely not interested in doing this thread is hamstringing the discussion by fixating on simplistic standard dictionary definitions as if they are the definition of a term and the authority on everything. That's about as useful as expecting a dictionary to give us a good understanding of evolution from a scientific standpoint, or a complex social phenomena like religion.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

One thing I am definitely not interested in doing this thread is hamstringing the discussion by fixating on simplistic standard dictionary definitions as if they are the definition of a term and the authority on everything. That's about as useful as expecting a dictionary to give us a good understanding of evolution from a scientific standpoint, or a complex social phenomena like religion.

But you are arguing what divination means from a general English perspective correct?

 

[Quintessence]

But you are arguing what divination means from a general English perspective correct?

In a fashion, but that's not quite how I would put it. What I think this really serves to highlight is the problem with using standard dictionaries as a basis for understanding the world. What standard dictionaries do is reflect the common parlance. In that respect, the dictionary is absolutely right to define divination in this fashion. However, because standard dictionaries are benched in common parlance, they do not represent specialists, or the "industry insiders" so to speak. In the case of divination, a standard dictionary simply does not reflect the range of ways in which the term is understood by actual diviners involved in the New Age, Pagan, and occult communities. This problem also happens with the word magic; a standard dictionary definition is not going to tell us how the word is understood in these communities either. This problem happens in the sciences all the time, too; no standard dictionary definition of scientific terms is going to well-represent how that term is understood in the sciences For that, we need to go to subject dictionaries or specialist dictionaries, and better yet, to things like encyclopedias journals, and the literature straight from the horse's mouth.

There is no small irony in the fact that standard dictionaries themselves are engines of misconceptions. Perhaps they would be less so if folks understood what they represent and what they are for? I don't know. But the way I've seen some folks quote a dictionary like it's some incontrovertible scripture during my time on RF has been ... it gets discouraging. Sorry if I came down on you a bit hard there. I've just been around here for too long.

 

[Covellite]

For me, Tarot is the best way of divination. It can be used to explain whatever you want, even your past, present and future events.
Good Tarot readers usually explain (if they want to - usually don't) there's ability using terms like synchronicity and intuition.
Good Tarot readers are rare, gifted persons, usually very spiritual, moral, emphatic and sensitive. Since they can "see", quite often they don't want to tell something that can be harmful, or too much for you. IMO sometimes they can even correct some unwanted future event in your life if they think it's a good act, even without telling you that.
Carl Gustav Jung talked a lot about intuition, collective unconscious, synchronicity and tarot.
I disagree with both of your misconceptions. It can be used to predict a future (not necessarily) and it involves supernatural ( I would rather say, still explainable ) phenomenons.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

The definition of divination is: the practice of seeking knowledge of the future or the unknown by supernatural means.

It might be useful to give the source of your definition, and if citing dictionaries or other sorts of sources, recognizing that there will be differences between them, and some are more reliable or more complete than others. For example, the Oxford English Dictionary gives:

1. The action or practice of divining; the foretelling of future events or discovery of what is hidden or obscure by supernatural or magical means; soothsaying, augury, prophecy. With a and pl., an exercise of this, a prophecy, an augury.

2. In a weaker sense: Prevision or guessing by happy instinct or unusual insight; successful conjecture or guessing.

Even so, actual practitioners (for example, @Quintessence or me) might give a more detailed explanation than any dictionary, and might explain it in psychological, symbolic or other terms, instead of "supernatural or magical."

 

[Quintessence]

The OED definition isn't as far off from the one I use... though I used the term "esoteric" rather than "supernatural or magical." There really isn't any good word for the esoteric/supernatural/magical/occult methods of divination. And all of it can be explained in psychological terms if one wants to do so.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

The OED definition isn't as far off from the one I use... though I used the term "esoteric" rather than "supernatural or magical." There really isn't any good word for the esoteric/supernatural/magical/occult methods of divination. And all of it can be explained in psychological terms if one wants to do so.

I like the second meaning: "by happy instinct or unusual insight!" Talk about some loaded phrasing, lol!

 

[Riverwolf]

Interestingly, the word "divination" translates into Old English as "wigle", which is the ancestor of the Modern English word "wile"... which means "deception".

I think that's also a major part of the problem. Skeptics' first exposure to divination, especially in the past, is almost universally via Christian depictions of it in media. (I don't necessarily mean "depictions by Christians"; I mean "depictions that are strongly influenced by Christianity".) Needless to say, such depictions aren't typically going to be terribly flattering, and will largely involve things such as predicting the future, con artistry, devil-worship, etc; things that the audience is expected to latch onto as inherently negative. (The usual exception is in fantasy, where divination is often celebrated. It's still often, however, involved in predicting the future.)

Nowadays, that's largely based on genuine belief that divination is inherently deceptive and harmful, but that belief has roots in anti-pagan propaganda from over a thousand years ago. Whether any of that propaganda is true or not is impossible to say for certain, since it's also often the only writing we have on pre-Christian divination, at least when it comes to Northern Europe.

But using such assumptions to judge modern divination is a mistake. Regardless of how pre-Christian peoples practiced and viewed it, nowadays it's often used as one of many tools for introspection. If I'm practicing Wile (to apply the original word's meaning to the modern word, because I like doing that), it's not to see the future. It's to help focus my thoughts when they get chaotic.

Even though I'm Heathen, I'm not terribly familiar with Runic divination. I tend to use Tarot cards, instead. The reason why it's useless for showing the future or reading minds, or stuff like that, is because the cards are often so vaguely defined that literally any set of cards in any given spread can be applied to pretty much any given situation with the right interpretation. But it's that quirk which I use to my advantage. I can apply whatever cards that come up to a particular situation as a way to focus chaotic thoughts in my mind, and explore potential solutions. Even if the solutions have nothing to do with the cards themselves, they can still help focus my mind, and thus calm it down.

 

[Erebus]

Even though I'm Heathen, I'm not terribly familiar with Runic divination. I tend to use Tarot cards, instead. The reason why it's useless for showing the future or reading minds, or stuff like that, is because the cards are often so vaguely defined that literally any set of cards in any given spread can be applied to pretty much any given situation with the right interpretation. But it's that quirk which I use to my advantage. I can apply whatever cards that come up to a particular situation as a way to focus chaotic thoughts in my mind, and explore potential solutions. Even if the solutions have nothing to do with the cards themselves, they can still help focus my mind, and thus calm it down.

Tarot cards are excellent for this. Runes tend to be very direct. That can be good or bad, depending on what you're after.

 

[Quintessence]

Thanks for covering some of the historical nuances, @Riverwolf. Left it out of the OP in part because it was long enough as it was (and also getting more likes than I expected). Both divination and magic/spellcraft have been integral parts of religious practices but maligned by our Christian legacy because of it's guilty association with Paganisms. I understand the political reasons for that from back in the day, but it's unfortunate that we carry that legacy on yet today. Couple that with Enlightenment-era values and it's a recipe for poor reception in American culture. Still, there is enough appeal and fascination with it that it has hung on to the modern day. It plays into that deep human need to know what's what and navigate this world we live in - the same needs religions play into with their stories, practices, and creeds.

 

[Sunstone]

I've always thought that whatever value there was in divination came about due to any help it could give someone in recognizing their deeper, subconscious thoughts and concerns.

I was introduced to the Tarot in college. Naturally, I immediately used what I was taught as a means of picking up girls in bars. But even so, I couldn't help but be impressed by how my totally unskilled readings so frequently resonated with people. They saw the cards as being astonishingly accurate, and revealing things that were true and spot on. I formed the impression that they were reading into the cards what was on their subconscious minds.

 

[Quintessence]

I've always thought that whatever value there was in divination came about due to any help it could give someone in recognizing their deeper, subconscious thoughts and concerns.

I was introduced to the Tarot in college. Naturally, I immediately used what I was taught as a means of picking up girls in bars. But even so, I couldn't help but be impressed by how my totally unskilled readings so frequently resonated with people. They saw the cards as being astonishingly accurate, and revealing things that were true and spot on. I formed the impression that they were reading into the cards what was on their subconscious minds.

That's the psychological school of explanation, yes. Some might call that explanation mundane, but personally? I find it pretty darned magical that our brains can even work that way. It's awesome! Why not take advantage of it! Sometimes I'll compare divination tools to mirrors as well... a way of reflecting what is inside, but we are often not paying enough attention to see. Some folks are more introspective than others, yes? This does mean, sometimes, that divination can be a hard experience for some. It can involve staring down the parts of yourself you hate, the parts of your life you hate, in ways that can be most uncomfortable.