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Divine Command Theory Defeated?

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Response: In other words, your definition is completely fictional and can't be found in any dictionary. Thus not only have you spent the time in critiquing me as if I didn't no what a contradiction is when in fact you clearly don't, but you lack the humility in admitting so, reducing your argument even further by still standing by it, defending it. Thanks for the clarification.

Nonsense. The definition from Wikipedia is completely compatible with the one that I gave you. You did not originally demand a dictionary definition, so I gave you a perfectly reasonable one. It turns out to mean the same thing as the dictionary definition that I gave you. If you disagree, then explain how my definition is incompatible with the one from Wikipedia.
 

Fatihah

Well-Known Member
Nonsense. The definition from Wikipedia is completely compatible with the one that I gave you. You did not originally demand a dictionary definition, so I gave you a perfectly reasonable one. It turns out to mean the same thing as the dictionary definition that I gave you. If you disagree, then explain how my definition is incompatible with the one from Wikipedia.

Response: Post 40 proves to the contrary.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Response: Post 40 proves to the contrary.

No, post 40 takes the position that I was supposed to supply you with a dictionary definition, which you had not originally asked for. I'm perfectly happy for you to simply replace my original definition with the dictionary definition that I gave you from Wikipedia. All of my original points still stand, and you are exposed as contradicting yourself.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
According to the Merriam-Webster Online dictionary:

Contradiction:

Main Entry: con·tra·dic·tion
Pronunciation: \ˌkän-trə-ˈdik-shən\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : act or an instance of contradicting
2 a : a proposition, statement, or phrase that asserts or implies both the truth and falsity of something b : a statement or phrase whose parts contradict each other <a round square is a contradiction in terms>
3 a : logical incongruity b : a situation in which inherent factors, actions, or propositions are inconsistent or contrary to one another



The bottom line is that the definition that Copernicus supplied was perfectly satisfactory and Fatihah is just being Fatihah.

Given that the definition is correct, the onus is on Fatihah to explain why his rambling explanation is not contradictory.
 
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Fatihah

Well-Known Member
No, post 40 takes the position that I was supposed to supply you with a dictionary definition, which you had not originally asked for. I'm perfectly happy for you to simply replace my original definition with the dictionary definition that I gave you from Wikipedia. All of my original points still stand, and you are exposed as contradicting yourself.

Response: Post 35 and 40 proves to the contrary.
 
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Fatihah

Well-Known Member
Since you seem to disagree with the presented definition, one would think that you have your own definition of the word.

Please define contradiction.

Response: And one would wonder why it is so important or interesting for you to have me present a definition, especially when the conversation didn't concern you, nor does it relate to the topic.
 
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Fatihah

Well-Known Member
According to the Merriam-Webster Online dictionary:

Contradiction:

Main Entry: con·tra·dic·tion
Pronunciation: \&#716;kän-tr&#601;-&#712;dik-sh&#601;n\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : act or an instance of contradicting
2 a : a proposition, statement, or phrase that asserts or implies both the truth and falsity of something b : a statement or phrase whose parts contradict each other <a round square is a contradiction in terms>
3 a : logical incongruity b : a situation in which inherent factors, actions, or propositions are inconsistent or contrary to one another



The bottom line is that the definition that Copernicus supplied was perfectly satisfactory and Fatihah is just being Fatihah.

Given that the definition is correct, the onus is on Fatihah to explain why his rambling explanation is not contradictory.

Response: There's the statement. Where's the proof? The fact you took the time to make a lengthy post with absolutely no proof just shows that YmirGF is being YmirGF. Giving that you've reduced your argument to agreeing with his fictional definition, one that appears absolutely no where in any dictionary on the face of the planet, the onus is on you to explain why his fiction is actually the truth.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
One of the horns of Euthyphro's Dilemma often championed by theists is Divine Command Theory (DCT), which is described in brief as the notion that God is the sole arbiter of morality. A proponent of DCT would reply to the question, "Does God do good because it's good, or is it good because God does it?" with "It's good because God does it." In other words, there is no transcendental morality [to God]; only God's command to determine "good" from "evil."

This immediately implies that if God were to strike someone dead on the street then this act is "good," since God does it -- assuming DCT is true. Normally theists could draw from classical theodicies and say that God striking someone dead in the street could serve some ultimate good purpose even if we can't see it, so let me clarify a little further.

If God were to torture someone for the sake of torture -- purely to cause pain and suffering, with no ultimate purpose other than the person suffering and experiencing pain -- this would register as "good" if DCT is true. If I stopped my argument here, then I would be falling prey to the fallacy of arguing from adverse consequences, so bear with me while I get to my point.

We humans are arguably endowed with a sense of what's "good or evil" according to many theists and nontheists alike. With the semantics of what "good or evil" are left aside for some other discussion, many of us can agree that we have this sense or rational function, which I will henceforth call our "moral compass," even if our compasses don't always agree.

My moral compass tells me that anyone torturing for torture's sake -- even if God does it -- is not "good" whatsoever. Even if DCT were true, I could never subjectively agree that torture for torture's sake is "good."

I run into a conundrum then: if DCT is true, and my "moral compass" comes from God, then God has supplied me with at least one sense/rational function that isn't aimed at generating true beliefs. Assuming DCT is true, my "moral compass" is faulty since I mistakenly believe that God torturing for torture's sake would be "evil."

If God has endowed me with at least one rational function that isn't aimed at forming true beliefs, how can I be assured that ANY of my rational functions are aimed at forming true beliefs -- including arriving to the belief that DCT is true?

Using this Bayesian argument I aim to show that anyone who believes the following self-contradicts:
1) DCT is true
2) Our "moral compass" comes from God
3) God torturing for torture's sake is subjectively perceived as wrong or evil

If each of these beliefs is held by a person, they self-contradict because the person is admitting they have at least one rational function given by God which isn't aimed at generating true beliefs, and the question arises whether or not they can trust any of their rational functions.

Given that k is the notion that our mental faculties are aimed at generating true beliefs, and p is the notion that our mental faculties were given to us entirely by God, and q is the notion that at least one of our mental faculties (from p) is faulty in that it consistently generates at least one false belief (such as "God torturing for torture's sake is evil"), then we can make a Bayesian argument that Pr(k|p&q) is some low or inscrutable number. That is, the probability that k given p&q is some low or inscrutable number.*

What do you think?

(* - Avid readers of theological debates will recognize this line of argumentation from Alvin Plantinga's [in]famous argument against k given that "naturalism" is true and the human species evolved. He argues that Pr(k|E&N) is also some low or inscrutable number. While interesting, his argument would I suppose be better discussed in another thread.)
I think that DCT is just another form of authority based morality, which is a form of morality where right and wrong are dictated by an authority. Don´t like it, it takes away a lot of what it means to be human and reduces morality to an empty synonym for obidience.
 

McBell

Unbound
Response: And one would wonder why it is so important or interesting for you to have me present a definition, especially when the conversation didn't concern you, nor does it relate to the topic.
I find it rather interesting that you dislike the definition of contradiction to the point of denying the dictionary.

Since you disagree with the dictionary definition even after asking for it, one would think that you would at least have the courtesy to present YOUR definition.

Why are you so afraid to present your definition?

Can't you find a dictionary that agrees with your definition?
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
Response: If torturing for torture's sake means to torture for the fun of it with no other purpose, then yes it is evil.
So then you mean God is good because he knows what is good, not because whatever he does is good no matter what it is?
 

Fatihah

Well-Known Member
I find it rather interesting that you dislike the definition of contradiction to the point of denying the dictionary.

Since you disagree with the dictionary definition even after asking for it, one would think that you would at least have the courtesy to present YOUR definition.

Why are you so afraid to present your definition?

Can't you find a dictionary that agrees with your definition?

Response: Why are you so afraid to say why it is so important to you?
It's not like we don't no the reason why.
 

McBell

Unbound
Response: There's the statement. Where's the proof? The fact you took the time to make a lengthy post with absolutely no proof just shows that YmirGF is being YmirGF.
Absolutely no proof?
So to you a dictionary is not proof of the definition of a word?
Please be so kind as to let us know what you use as the source for the definitions of words.

Giving that you've reduced your argument to agreeing with his fictional definition,
What fictional definition?
You talk a lot about truth and proof, but ignore both.

one that appears absolutely no where in any dictionary on the face of the planet,
Liar.
You were presented with TWO dictionary definitions that agree with the first presented definition.
Your denial of the truth in no way effects the truth.

the onus is on you to explain why his fiction is actually the truth.
No, the onus is on you to refute the THREE definitions that have already been presented with something other than your opinion.
 

Fatihah

Well-Known Member
Absolutely no proof?
So to you a dictionary is not proof of the definition of a word?
Please be so kind as to let us know what you use as the source for the definitions of words.


What fictional definition?
You talk a lot about truth and proof, but ignore both.


Liar.
You were presented with TWO dictionary definitions that agree with the first presented definition.
Your denial of the truth in no way effects the truth.


No, the onus is on you to refute the THREE definitions that have already been presented with something other than your opinion.

Response: Many statements. Where's the proof?
 
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