divorce initiated by women (reposted from Reform DIR)

[Harel13]

Wouldn't this still require a get? If one of the spouses is MIA, isn't someone left stuck?

Yes. Also, having looked at the info now, it's not exactly what I thought it was. It's more of an incentive to the husband to give the get.

ne possibility: if a spouse is found to have a repeated pattern as a "refuser", maybe it could be viewed as an undisclosed defect? And then this would support annulment rather than divorce, and the "refuser's" cooperation would no longer be needed?

How would you go about this? What other issues are there that could point to a husband "becoming" a "refuser"?

 

[dybmh]

How would you go about this? What other issues are there that could point to a husband "becoming" a "refuser"?

OK, here's what I'm thinking...

a hypothetical example:

Let's say that my wife leaves me and my kids one day. No note, the bank accounts are emptied, and she's gone. After 4 days, the local authorities stop their search and recommend hiring a Private Investigator. The private investigator researches my wife and finds out that she has been married 5 times. Each one lasting 3 years. And then, she disappears.

If my wife never told me about her previous marriages, then it seems like the ketubah is invalid. It fits all 4 elements of annulment?

 

[Harel13]

If my wife never told me about her previous marriages, then it seems like the ketubah is invalid. It fits all 4 elements of annulment?

I don't know all that much about ketubot and gittin, but the first possibility that pops into my mind is that there's an issue of being a halachic betulah at marriage. If the bride isn't one, then the ketubah would have a special amendment to it. If you and the mesader kiddushin somehow were not aware of this, and you gave your hypothetical wife an erroneous ketubah, I suppose that might be grounds for annulment. Maybe?

 

[dybmh]

I don't know all that much about ketubot and gittin, but the first possibility that pops into my mind is that there's an issue of being a halachic betulah at marriage. If the bride isn't one, then the ketubah would have a special amendment to it. If you and the mesader kiddushin somehow were not aware of this, and you gave your hypothetical wife an erroneous ketubah, I suppose that might be grounds for annulment. Maybe?

Right, maybe.

So take that and apply it to the gross circumstances of the agunah loophole being exploited for the purpose of extortion. Something like that should leave a paper trail. if it does, then that would reveal a person's pattern of inappropriate behavior, essentially siphoning resources of the beit din for their illicit gain. And it would give the agunah a way out. Both genders. It's a win for the agunah and a win for beit din.

But the heavy lifting would be showing the pattern of extortion.

 

[Harel13]

if it does, then that would reveal a person's pattern of inappropriate behavior

But on the other hand, there's a din in the gemara (don't know what halacha does with this nowadays) that a person, even if he's a very sinful, evil person, can come to a woman and say: "Hitkadshi li ul menat she'ani tzaddik gamur" - basically, marry me for I am a righteous person. Why is this okay? Says the gemara: Maybe at the moment he had thoughts of teshuva, which would make him a righteous person at that moment. So the question would be: How much could you use a person's past to annul a marital agreement?

 

[dybmh]

How much could you use a person's past to annul a marital agreement?

Exactly.

I don't know.

But my theory/hope is that it addresses the concerns in the OP on multiple levels.. @Karolina, are you still following the discussion?

 

[dybmh]

teshuva

yup... that's what I was thinking about too... it's the core of the whole agunah problem.

You never know... the missing / errant / confused / abusive spouse might change their ways at any time. And if so how long should a person wait for that return?

What would the kids say? Even if the spouse has lost hope, the kids wouldn't...

 

[Karolina]

In the case of domestic abuse? In an Orthodox Community the religious court would intervene. Same goes with a Reformed congregation. If there is domestic abuse, a reformed Rabbi would absolutely help a woman initiate a divorce.

It sounds like she still has to hope for a favorably-minded rabbi, and if she's in a country/culture/time where such a rabbi can't be found....?

 

[Karolina]

Depending on how the contract/ketubah is written, can a religious court annul a marriage if the husband is unable or unwilling to fulfill their obligations as husband? It's something that one of the documents in the JOFA website calls a "recalcitrant husband". I'm looking for a halachic definition of a husband who is essentially in contempt of court, is missing, and will not work in good faith towards a mutually acceptable solution. If I start looking at Gittin in the Talmud, do you think I'll find anything? I was going to start at 31a based on a footnote of one of the other documents I was reading, fwiw...

I'm not talking about a precondition in the ketubah that removes the husbands rights... I'm talking about a court finding that a husband is literally not able to do what they said they would do in the ketubah. In these cases, what happens? Is there a get? Is it divorce, annulment, something else entirely?

This makes me think of something else I read that I also found disturbing - that a husband can be forced to divorce his wife against his will under certain conditions, one of them being if they remaind childless after 10 years of marriage. This really rubbed me the wrong way. It seems, going back to a previous comment, that the whole point of marriage in Judaism is self-propagation of the people, not at all something between two individuals make in the image of God, with free will to enter into a loving commitment at will. That's how it sounds to me as an outsider.

 

[dybmh]

It sounds like she still has to hope for a favorably-minded rabbi, and if she's in a country/culture/time where such a rabbi can't be found....?

OK. But that does not describe Reform Judaism, right?

 

[Harel13]

It sounds like she still has to hope for a favorably-minded rabbi, and if she's in a country/culture/time where such a rabbi can't be found....?

i don't think beit dins work the same as civil courts where you pray for a favorable judge.

 

[Harel13]

that a husband can be forced to divorce his wife against his will under certain conditions, one of them being if they remaind childless after 10 years of marriage.

This seems strange. Yes, there's a 10-year wait period for a childless couple. However, considering that only the man is obligated to have children, how would he be forced to divorce his wife? What grounds does the wife have?

BTW, just because this may be possible (as grounds for divorce), doesn't mean that all childless couples divorce over this. There are a number of famous rabbis, for example, who were childless but didn't divorce and remarry.

 

[Karolina]

But my theory/hope is that it addresses the concerns in the OP on multiple levels.. @Karolina, are you still following the discussion?

Yes, thank you for the discussion. It seems there are even more problems in the arena of marriage/divorce within Judaism than I originally thought, actually. :\

 

[Harel13]

Yes, thank you for the discussion. It seems there are even more problems in the arena of marriage/divorce within Judaism than I originally thought, actually. :\

Maybe, but it's not that bad. There aren't that many agunim and agunot walking around. It may be complicated, but as long as both sides stick to a certain degree of civility - which is what usually happens - then it works out okay (as 'okay' as divorce can be).

 

[dybmh]

This makes me think of something else I read that I also found disturbing - that a husband can be forced to divorce his wife against his will under certain conditions, one of them being if they remaind childless after 10 years of marriage. This really rubbed me the wrong way. It seems, going back to a previous comment, that the whole point of marriage in Judaism is self-propagation of the people, not at all something between two individuals make in the image of God, with free will to enter into a loving commitment at will. That's how it sounds to me as an outsider.

Agreed. The agunah is an issue. And what you have described above is another issue.

It all goes back to the beit din, from what I can tell. If the beit din is healthy, and pious, I think that they will make the right call for the couple, the family, and the community. That's the intention at least.

The agunah problem is unique because, It seems like the beit din doesn't have any good options if the loophole is exploited. But for what you have described above, I feel like on a case by case basis, sometimes it makes sense to encourage a divorce, and sometimes not. "Remaining childless" could be a sign of other incompatibilities, and it's simply being described as an umbrella term "childless"?

But honestly, I'd be starting over with my research on this specific circumstance if i wanted to speak about it intelligently. I hope you understand.

 

[dybmh]

Yes, thank you for the discussion. It seems there are even more problems in the arena of marriage/divorce within Judaism than I originally thought, actually. :\

It is meticulous observance of The Torah. This is big part of it. The thing is... these same people...

They know how to worship... and it is awesome. So, the legal issues are part of it. The challenges end up being part of the reward. It's all part of the deep rich texture of Orthodox Judaism.

 

[Tumah]

I personally heard Chief Rabbi Lau say recently that they had such a case over the last year (don't remember what the wife's problem was). Not sure about the 100 signatures issue, but I assume that the more complicated divorce issues eventually make their way to the high beit din.

Not all divorces start and/or end in the Rabbinate. Lots of us wouldn't even take the Rabbinate's psak to begin with.

 

[Harel13]

Not all divorces start and/or end in the Rabbinate. Lots of us wouldn't even take the Rabbinate's psak to begin with.

Are you referring specifically to the Israeli Rabbinate?

 

[Tumah]

On average how many people participate as part of a beit din for divorce cases? On average?

It's three people to form a court. Technically, you don't need a court for a divorce, until you do. Practically though, it solves problems.

 

[Tumah]

Are you referring specifically to the Israeli Rabbinate?

Yeah.