Do any Christians disagree with this...

[HoldemDB9]

Not everyone, in this life, gets an equal chance to become Christian?

I brought this up quite a lot recently and its ended with Christians either agreeing that their God is unfair, or they disagree with the above statement. Even saying things so insanely dumb such as "everyone will either become Christian or not become Christian in their life, therefore everyone has a 50% chance of becoming Christian". YES, someone has actually said this, scary.

Now of course, they don't stay around and explain how they disagree, because they don't want to look stupid. For some reason many Christians seem to think that any chance is an equal chance, I have no idea why they think this. Listen carefully:

I am not saying that a child born in India has no chance at becoming Christian, I am saying that this child has a SMALLER chance than a child born in the USA.

So are there any Christians here who believe that a child born in Saudi Arabia has the same chance at becoming Christian as a child born in the USA?

 

[sojourner]

Not everyone, in this life, gets an equal chance to become Christian?

I brought this up quite a lot recently and its ended with Christians either agreeing that their God is unfair, or they disagree with the above statement. Even saying things so insanely dumb such as "everyone will either become Christian or not become Christian in their life, therefore everyone has a 50% chance of becoming Christian". YES, someone has actually said this, scary.

Now of course, they don't stay around and explain how they disagree, because they don't want to look stupid. For some reason many Christians seem to think that any chance is an equal chance, I have no idea why they think this. Listen carefully:

I am not saying that a child born in India has no chance at becoming Christian, I am saying that this child has a SMALLER chance than a child born in the USA.

So are there any Christians here who believe that a child born in Saudi Arabia has the same chance at becoming Christian as a child born in the USA?

Why should you think that an "equal chance" is important? Maybe a lot of those living in other countries don't want to convert. Maybe they like being Muslim, or Hindu, or Buddhist.

What were the chances (in the beginning) of any group outside Israel becoming Christian? In Matthew, the community is told to go to the ethne (heathens) and make them laos (part of the community). In Luke, we have the story of the good Samaritan, whom Jesus identified as laos, by virtue of his actions, not his ethnicity.

"Becoming Christian" is a process for humanity -- not an event. Don't you think that God takes care of God's own in whatever situation people find themselves?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

My only problem with wha you are say Holdem, is that you are basing you premise off and incorrect understanding of what it means to become a christian.
Yes it is true millions in the US cal themselves christian, but in fact are only christians by lip service.
To become a christian is only the work of God and that not of ourselves. While it is more popular in the US, we have created a christianity that is unbiblical. So what really is the difference if a child in India does not have the exposure to christiinty that a child in the US does, if what the child in the US is learning is actually contrary to the wordsof the bible. Does that make sense?

Another thing to consider is there are around t billion according to the world almanac that profess christianity. So clearly that falls well out of the jurisdiction of the US.

Finally, your insistance upon 50/50 chance would only apply if indeed those in the US were actually becoming a christian. Take paul fo an example in the book of acts, he was walking along and wham God took him. That is becoming a christian. That is much different that what people think in the US wheb it comes to becoming a Christian. Jesus talks a lot about the end of the world when many will have thought they were christians, but in fact perverted christianity.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Finally, your insistance upon 50/50 chance would only apply if indeed those in the US were actually becoming a christian. Take paul fo an example in the book of acts, he was walking along and wham God took him. That is becoming a christian.

Right - and Christ appeared before Paul, struck him down, spoke to him, and just to drive the point home, rendered him temporarily blind. If God doesn't do something equally spectacular for every single other person, then he doesn't treat people equally and people don't have an equal chance to become Christian.

 

[Draka]

Holdem is not requiring a 50/50 chance to become Christian. Someone else said there was. Holdem's issue is with those who insist that there IS an equal chance for everyone to become a Christian so that there is no excuse not to be a Christian when it comes to god and afterlife. His point comes from debating with those in a thread about heaven where some Christians have been maintaining that only christians will get into heaven. To try to illustrate why that is fair of their god they have been saying that everyone on earth has an equal chance of becoming a Christian.

Now, if some Christians disagree with this equal chance thing and they still maintain that only Christians are loved enough by god and will make it to heaven, that would then make them admittedly believing in an unfair and unjust god.

To believe that god is fair and just and loving, and accept that not all people have an equal chance of being a Christian, a Christian would have to believe that their god would love and accept into heaven those who are not of the Christian faith. For a loving god would not condemn or dismiss those whose geographical area and upbringing naturally led them to a path that is not a Christian one.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Why should you think that an "equal chance" is important?

Umm, maybe so that your God is actually fair.

Maybe a lot of those living in other countries don't want to convert. Maybe they like being Muslim, or Hindu, or Buddhist.

What were the chances (in the beginning) of any group outside Israel becoming Christian? In Matthew, the community is told to go to the ethne (heathens) and make them laos (part of the community). In Luke, we have the story of the good Samaritan, whom Jesus identified as laos, by virtue of his actions, not his ethnicity.

"Becoming Christian" is a process for humanity -- not an event. Don't you think that God takes care of God's own in whatever situation people find themselves?

What exactly do you mean by "God takes care of these people"? So do they get another chance after they die? Does God let some non-Christians into heaven?

 

[whitnessforhim]

This brings to mind Romans 1:19-20 "because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,..."

The verb in verse 19 is present tense meaning God didn't just reveal this to us in the past, he continues to reveal this to us and not only does he continue to reveal this evidence he literally placed this in each one of us. God takes a personal interest in making sure each one of us have knowledge of him. So we all start out with the same amount or percentage of evidence or knowledge.

 

[HoldemDB9]

My only problem with wha you are say Holdem, is that you are basing you premise off and incorrect understanding of what it means to become a christian.
Yes it is true millions in the US cal themselves christian, but in fact are only christians by lip service.
To become a christian is only the work of God and that not of ourselves. While it is more popular in the US, we have created a christianity that is unbiblical. So what really is the difference if a child in India does not have the exposure to christiinty that a child in the US does, if what the child in the US is learning is actually contrary to the wordsof the bible. Does that make sense?

Another thing to consider is there are around t billion according to the world almanac that profess christianity. So clearly that falls well out of the jurisdiction of the US.

Finally, your insistance upon 50/50 chance would only apply if indeed those in the US were actually becoming a christian. Take paul fo an example in the book of acts, he was walking along and wham God took him. That is becoming a christian. That is much different that what people think in the US wheb it comes to becoming a Christian. Jesus talks a lot about the end of the world when many will have thought they were christians, but in fact perverted christianity.

Why did you post in this thread? We already agreed in another thread that the God of the bible is an unfair God.

This thread is to confront Christians who believe that their God is fair, you do not believe this, so this thread does not apply to you.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Holdem is not requiring a 50/50 chance to become Christian. Someone else said there was. Holdem's issue is with those who insist that there IS an equal chance for everyone to become a Christian so that there is no excuse not to be a Christian when it comes to god and afterlife. His point comes from debating with those in a thread about heaven where some Christians have been maintaining that only christians will get into heaven. To try to illustrate why that is fair of their god they have been saying that everyone on earth has an equal chance of becoming a Christian.

Now, if some Christians disagree with this equal chance thing and they still maintain that only Christians are loved enough by god and will make it to heaven, that would then make them admittedly believing in an unfair and unjust god.

To believe that god is fair and just and loving, and accept that not all people have an equal chance of being a Christian, a Christian would have to believe that their god would love and accept into heaven those who are not of the Christian faith. For a loving god would not condemn or dismiss those whose geographical area and upbringing naturally led them to a path that is not a Christian one.

You've said it better than I could. Well said, thank you. The only people who have actually stayed around and debated have ended up coming to one of these conclusions:

1) They admit that their God is unfair, but claim that he is perfectly just.

2) They claim to believe that the fact that there is not the same percentage of Christians in every country, is just a zillion billion million to 1 coincidence.

I would be interested in hearing from some more intelligent Christians (there are plenty around here) who would not bring themselves down to the level of coming to one of the ridiculous above conclusions.

 

[HoldemDB9]

This brings to mind Romans 1:19-20 "because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,..."

The verb in verse 19 is present tense meaning God didn't just reveal this to us in the past, he continues to reveal this to us and not only does he continue to reveal this evidence he literally placed this in each one of us. God takes a personal interest in making sure each one of us have knowledge of him. So we all start out with the same amount or percentage of evidence or knowledge.

Ok then Ill tell you what I tell everyone who claims that everyone on the planet has an equal chance of becoming Christian. Why is it that ~75% of the American population is Christian, 85% of the Indian population is Hindu and 95% of the Saudi Arabian population Muslim? If everyone had an equal chance to become Christian then there would be the same percentage of Christians in every country, but this is not the case.

What do you have to say about this? Is it just a coincidence?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

ah, so know I undersand.
I will answer this properly then. I submit that EVERYONE has an equal chance to get into heaven. This has to be so because only God can save you. So what the poster Enoch has been saying is based of a premise that we can do something of our own to get into a heaven.

I am here to tell you it doesn't matter what you call yourself. If God wants you in heaven it is his decision, so by that basis everyone is equal.

No one knows whom God has chosen so we are all fair game. Even if you are a small child in a village in India.

So if I understand everyones argument, what else can be said about the matter?

 

[HoldemDB9]

ah, so know I undersand.
I will answer this properly then. I submit that EVERYONE has an equal chance to get into heaven. This has to be so because only God can save you. So what the poster Enoch has been saying is based of a premise that we can do something of our own to get into a heaven.

I am here to tell you it doesn't matter what you call yourself. If God wants you in heaven it is his decision, so by that basis everyone is equal.

No one knows whom God has chosen so we are all fair game. Even if you are a small child in a village in India.

So if I understand everyones argument, what else can be said about the matter?

You have nothing to say on the matter since you accept that your God is an unfair God. Others have something to say because they claim that their God is a fair God, simple as that.

 

[tomspug]

I'm not going to attempt to explain God, but my belief is, and will always be, that God is just and that he understands the circumstances, experiences, thoughts and feelings of every individual. If you couple this knowledge with the idea that God is just, then it only seems logical that God would give everyone an equal chance to accept him through Christ. That is not to say that everyone has equal exposure to certain religious structures... If someone says they are a Christian or that they are saved, does that mean that they are? Or if someone spends the predominant time of their life a Hindu, does that mean that person is less likely to be saved? I think they are equal questions, and neither is more likely than the other... Only God knows our hearts and only God can truly change us, so by saying that circumstances make one more likely to be saved than another, in my mind, that limits God and makes him weak. If God is all-powerful and all-knowing and, of course, full of love, than he will certainly do everything in his power to free every one of us.

 

[HoldemDB9]

I'm not going to attempt to explain God, but my belief is, and will always be, that God is just and that he understands the circumstances, experiences, thoughts and feelings of every individual. If you couple this knowledge with the idea that God is just, then it only seems logical that God would give everyone an equal chance to accept him through Christ. That is not to say that everyone has equal exposure to certain religious structures... If someone says they are a Christian or that they are saved, does that mean that they are? Or if someone spends the predominant time of their life a Hindu, does that mean that person is less likely to be saved? I think they are equal questions, and neither is more likely than the other... Only God knows our hearts and only God can truly change us, so by saying that circumstances make one more likely to be saved than another, in my mind, that limits God and makes him weak. If God is all-powerful and all-knowing and, of course, full of love, than he will certainly do everything in his power to free every one of us.

So God gives the non-believers who did not have enough of a chance another chance after they die to even things up?

 

[tomspug]

Right - and Christ appeared before Paul, struck him down, spoke to him, and just to drive the point home, rendered him temporarily blind. If God doesn't do something equally spectacular for every single other person, then he doesn't treat people equally and people don't have an equal chance to become Christian.

Chance is an invention of the human mind. If God does exist, then there is no such thing as "chance".

 

[HoldemDB9]

Chance is an invention of the human mind. If God does exist, then there is no such thing as "chance".

I think you've misunderstood me. Swap the word chance with opportunity. Not all, in this life, get an equal opportunity to become Christian. This is proved by the fact that there are largely different percentages of Christians in different country's. Since not all get an equal opportunity in this life, God will have to give them that opportunity after they die, otherwise God is unfair. *Edit - Another way to make it fair would be to allow non-Christians into heaven*

So will the child born in India, who had the smaller opportunity than the child born in America, get the opportunity after they die to become Christian?

 

[whitnessforhim]

Ok then Ill tell you what I tell everyone who claims that everyone on the planet has an equal chance of becoming Christian. Why is it that ~75% of the American population is Christian, 85% of the Indian population is Hindu and 95% of the Saudi Arabian population Muslim? If everyone had an equal chance to become Christian then there would be the same percentage of Christians in every country, but this is not the case.

What do you have to say about this? Is it just a coincidence?

Well it all starts from the beginning. If you accept the account of creation rather than evolution then in the beginning everyone believed in God and over time after the fall, when sin, death and destruction entered the world and people turned their face from God you have cultures who are now less Christian than others.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

holdem, I am beginning to see you don't listen very well.

Focus on this one point. 2 billion people in the work claime to be a christian. I don't care if they are really going to heaven for the discussion, but since there are only 3 hundred million people in the US your whole argument falls aprt. All your postshave amounted to nothing on the this subject, because if I do the math 2 billion minus 3 hundred million equals alot of people left in the world that believe in christ.
Not to mention of the 3 hundred million in the US not all of them believe in christ.
So just quit while you ca.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Well it all starts from the beginning. If you accept the account of creation rather than evolution then in the beginning everyone believed in God and over time after the fall, when sin, death and destruction entered the world and people turned their face from God you have cultures who are now less Christian than others.

And it is unfair on the people born into these non-Christian cultures since it had nothing to do with them.

Now please answer my question, is it just a coincidence that the percentages of Christians in certain country's are the way they are?

 

[tomspug]

I think you've misunderstood me. Swap the word chance with opportunity. Not all, in this life, get an equal opportunity to become Christian. This is proved by the fact that there are largely different percentages of Christians in different country's. Since not all get an equal opportunity in this life, God will have to give them that opportunity after they die, otherwise God is unfair. *Edit - Another way to make it fair would be to allow non-Christians into heaven*

So will the child born in India, who had the smaller opportunity than the child born in America, get the opportunity after they die to become Christian?

What I am saying is that, in the mind of an all-knowing God (again, don't want to define God here) it would seem to me that it is God's responsibility to give EVERYONE an opportunity. Is there an opportunity after death? I don't know. That hasn't been revealed. I can only be satisfied with this explanation if I am to have faith in a just God.

So in the mind of a Christian, like myself, it is my obligation to be an example of God's love as much as possible. It is not my job to convert people. That's God's job.